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55 Comments
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+34@nazadus
The ratio issue is NOT a security flaw. If there was a security flaw in the BT protocol, there would be no sides; we'd all want if fixed. This is different. - alphaone, on 10/12/2007, -8/+36Why patch something that people will find new exploits to anyway? He could patch the protocol now, and each subsequent time someone finds a new exploit, but why bother waste time on that when he could be designing something innovative. I'd rather see new things over patches.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -5/+20Brahm has a point. I joined Demonoid recently, and am getting frustrated because even though I've uploaded over 50GB (with a ratio >1), my ratio on their tracker sucks, because I need to have files to upload before people can download them from me. A lot of people take pride in having a ratio >1, and it's those people who keep it healthy. I agree that locking it down will only encourage cheating.
- SanjayM, on 10/12/2007, -6/+19@Ascendant:
Private trackers do not blindly lock out the public, they simply assure that its members seed fairly ensuring better speeds and availability for all. They are closed for a reason, and that reason is the fact that you cannot manage and monitor an infinite number of users. By the same token if trackers didn't let anyone in there would be no-one in the swarms thus defeating the purpose of BT.
Getting invited/membership to a private tracker really isn't hard at all, just pop on a site's IRC and enjoy the benefits of bittorrent at its finest.
Sanjay - quisxt, on 10/12/2007, -2/+13If some tracker sites want to use ratios, why isn't it up to them to ensure there is no cheating? What tracking sites are asking is not to fix an exploit with BitTorrent, but with their ratio system. Ratios aren't part of the BitTorrent protocol and BT works just fine without them. If tracker sites want to engage cheaters in what is bound to be a long term arms race, seems to me like it's better for Bram not to get involved rather than change the BT protocol every time a new ratio "exploit" is discovered.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10thats not even the point
the article is about the protocol not the client - sigloiv, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9@chrome0011: Exactly. I completely agree with Bram here. What he's saying is that people are actually wasting their resources while waiting to get a peer to upload to. It happens to me every day, just like this:
1. I download a torrent in mere minutes, if not seconds, my 6 megabit connection topping out due to the 25 or so seeds with excellent connections.
2. Upon the download's completion, I continue to seed.
3. Those same high-speed seeds that gave me the download so fast "steal" away my peers, topping out their download speeds before I can connect to them.
4. It takes me days, if not weeks to get just a 1:1 ratio on a torrent.
Because of this flaw in the private tracker's system, I currently have 44 completed torrents going on one tracker, none of which I'm contributing to more than would normally be contributed to. As of right now, every one of them are idle.
In other words, it's the luck of the draw whether or not I get the one peer to seed to. Chances are, I don't. - r00tus3r, on 10/12/2007, -6/+13HERE HERE!
Well done Bram! - krypnos, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7@8086ed:
I have to disagree with this, although, my argument is based on a pride of having a ratio of exactly one. You know, that whole mathmatical purity that Bram talked about in this, and an earlier digg post (if I had the link handy, I'd be more than happy to post it, but alas, I do not). What he said was:
“When a client reports new downloads to the tracker, the tracker can multiply the amount by (number of current peers total - number of current seeds) / (number of current peers total) and add that to the ‘total downloaded’. This results in most people having a ‘ratio’ of more than 1, but that isn’t actually a problem unless you’re more interested in mathematical purity than practical behavior.”
Either way, I agree that people need to get themselves to at least one. - pillfred, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Really i joined there a while back and didn't find it that hard to get a decent ratio. I have since uploaded some stuff and that has helped sure, but if you seed out what you get it should not be an issue.
- Guspaz, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8Yes! Not only are private trackers not Bram Cohens problem, they are against the spirit and concept of BitTorrent, and are harmful to the use of BitTorrent itself. Private trackers that implement ratios are not only harmful to BitTorrent marketshare, but are harmful to the swarm and users.
I'm lucky. I've got a laptop I can leave on overnight, and a fast enough DSL connection that seeding to 200% isn't a big problem. But I know that some users are stuck on lines with huge downstream and little to no upstream. I used to be on such a connection, with the ability to download at 120KB/s, but only upload at 16KB/s. People on those kinds of connections, it's not reasonable to expect them to seed to 200%, or even 100%. It just takes too long, when you download a decent amount of content.
I have no problem with people like them, because they're part of the system. People who can afford to seed extra like myself can do so, and people who can't afford to don't have to. It's like Medicare in Canada. Everybody contributes so that those who need it can have it. Private trackers prevent this, and should be eliminated from the world. Sadly, this isn't going to happen, obviously. But BitTorrent users would be a lot better off without them. - jonnyeh, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6demonoid is invite only (most of the time), therefore it's private.
Although, it's quite large, it's still private. It keeps track of your ratio, public trackers do not do that. - finite, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7What patch did he refuse? Has someone actually proposed a viable alteration to the BT protocol? Who what where when? This article is lacking in substance.
I suspect Bram is probably correct in his statement that the punitive tracker software behavior is fostering the lying client software. But what do people want him to do about it? - mikeazorin, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7Welcome to the world of pirates! You can't just ask a pirate to give back their download bandwidth.
- Fracture98, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Geez. Read the article and you'll see that Bram's right. It doesn't need to be and shouldn't be changed -- for the reasons he clearly specifies in the article.
- Nadare, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6Yeah I'm totally with Bram on this.
This is my experience on a private tracker;
New torrent comes, Can't download it for 24/48 hours since my account is new and my ratio is 0.
24/48 Hours pass, 10:1 seed to peer ratio, I download torrent, I get blazing speeds.
By the time my torrent has finish there are almost zero peers or something like 30+:1 ratio of seeds to peers giving me almost zero chance of ever getting up to or past a 1:1 ratio.
Its a never ending cycle. I blame both the people and the tracker, the people because yeah its great you have a 10:1 upload:download ratio but that chokes out other members who are also trying to upload, could you please stop at say 1:1 once in a while and let other people upload as well ? Bram's solution If i remember correctly was for the private trackers to make their torrents ratio free after a certain number of days so that way people can leech in peace and not be a burden on the system. - pillfred, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3not true i have 30kbps (38 max) upload and have no issues sharing it just takes time. Like i said on the other post on this issue, if you think torrents suck try direct connect some time.
- CognitiveRes, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4My respect for mister Cohen just went way up!
- azzkicar, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I see your point, and you are assuming that at all times seeders are stretched and used fully, which is not universally true. With lots of popular stuff, I notice that often the # of seeders exceed # of downloaders. Getting the popularly requested stuff out to as many people as feasible, with minimal effort, is just as important, if not more so, than the ratio itself. Bit torrent will not be truly mainstream and accepted as status quo unless they can prove this.
UL/DL ratio is simply a means to an end, not an end in itself. to distribute files. - azzkicar, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4I agree with Bram too. Instituting caps on upload/download limits without any consideration for seeds/downloads ratio or other important factors is not fair, and severely limits file sharing of all kinds.
Hard caps like that remind me of BBS days. I hate it because I either get few files, or have to constantly look for rare stuff I don't need simply to upload and earn D/L points. Bit-Torrent is supposed to get rid of this archaic way. Why are we moving backwards? Kudos to Bram. - Bioshocker, on 10/12/2007, -4/+6There sure is something amusingly ironic about people demanding something for nothing from the person who brought them the ability to get such large quantities of something for nothing in such an efficient manner. Biting the hand that feeds you, and all that.
(All usual caveats about how I'm sure *some* people use BT for legal purposes and I'm sure some people think their piracy is perfectly ethical. But tbh, it's pretty funny to hear people saying that the most efficient piracy tool ever created isn't efficient enough for them.) - Chris63084, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3I have to agree with those saying private trackers need to change. It is just simply not possible for everyone to get a 1:1 ratio, unless no one goes over, and some go far over, which makes it impossible for many others to even HAVE someone to upload to. TL is notorious for being a tough site to keep a good ratio with, and its scary too because its not like you can just get another account if you get banned either, so i ask wha will happen when i finally come to the limit and its either cheat or be banned, what will i do? take a guess. btw, moofdev.org for anyone who would like to ge their hands on cheating software.
- unknownsoldierX, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4You can't download from Demonoid without being a member. That is the definition of a private tracker.
- SrLnclt, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Demonoid might technically be private, since you have to login to the site to see much.
But since you can get the same torrents that are on Demonoid from IsoHunt or other sites, Demonoid doesn't really apply to this topic. In fact, they even encourage people to upload them to other sites.
Plus Demonoid doesn't update stats live, the ratio measuring is inaccurate, and they don't really ban people with poor ratios, so it really doesn't fit the stereotype of private trackers. - stcredzero, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Bram has good judgement on what is viable to add as a new feature. You can't make a cooperative protocol like Bittorrent cheat-proof without a lot of overhead.
- praxis22, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1People who cheat, will always want to cheat, and will spend a long time working out how to subvert the system. I'm with Bram on this one. I share because I think it's the right thing to do, even I've fully downloaded with a ratio of only 0.25, I still leave the PC seeding untill I'm between 1.0 & 1.5, the system works because people share. There will always be leeches.
- vvvv, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3It's like Jack Sparrow said when he was told that a moment would come when he could prove he was really a fine upstanding indivdual: "I love those moments. I love to wave at them as they pass by."
- chrome0011, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3I'd like to know where it says I have to download less than or equal to what i upload. Don't get me wrong, I seed, but Bram's right about the BitTorrent model working just fine. Private trackers do have great download speeds, but it's notoriously hard to get a ratio up, for the reasons he listed.
- xino, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3A month or 2 ago, I think I might have accidentally cheated the share ratio in bit torrent with just using Azureus and nothing else. What happened was I was downloading Diggnation on bit torrent from revision3.com and I got stuck at 1.9% for like 15 minutes and everyone else was stuck at that too so I decided to do a direct download and when I finished that, I stopped the sharing and replaced the partial file with the whole file and then shared the complete one and the share ratio went extremely fast which I just assumed was because I was the only one with the pieces everyone needed, but then like 5 hours later, I had a share ratio of 60 and I have a 256Kbps upstream connection and I couldn't figure out how that could be. Then I looked around and noticed that the bit torrent client said I had only downloaded 7.5MB which was that partial I got before so my share ratio was only based on that 7.5MB which is my ratio was so high.
- ubuwalker31, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2The flame war between Private Trackers and Bram Cohen has a single underlying question: What is fair file trading?
If you have ever traded files with someone before, over a direct connection, like on AIM or IRC, some people want a "Send to Receive" system, others want "1 to 1", and others want "4 for 1", and lots of people want "to leech something for nothing".
Bittorrent provides a completely different paradigm. Everyone shares a burden to upload pieces of the file, based on a tit for tat algorithm. This algorithm is 'fair' since it is how bittorrent thrives. However, a weakness of this algorithm is that seeders who have the entire file need to stick around for a while until someone else has the full file. There is no mechanism to force people to stick around once they have downloaded the file.
The bottom line is that if you change the algorithm that drives bittorrent to require people to stick around and seed, you have changed bittorrent...to something else entirely.
Personally, I think that users should be able to choose how bittorrent behaves. If they choose to enforce upload/download rations, thats there choice. But Bram doesn't have to help...although he should. - Reese268, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@guspaz:
But if both public and private trackers exist, how can private trackers 'hurt' bit torrent? If I wanted to experience ratio-free bit torrent, there are any number of public trackers I could use. And to someone with a very slow upload speed, I would reccomend they do that. Private trackers aren't hurting anything, and in fact, many of us greatly prefer them. - Reese268, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Every time I read an article about Bram Cohen.... he comes off as kind of an arrogant, self-important dick.
Anyway, both private and public trackers exist.... if you don't like trackers that keep track of ratio, then don't use them. But I have used both, and whatever Cohen says, private trackers are vastly superior... and anyone who tries can keep a good enough ratio to not worry about getting banned. - sfgeek, on 10/12/2007, -9/+8ARGH! That page crashes Safari every time. Nice move.
- OBKenobi, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Nah, private trackers suck.
- zeta44, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Huh! No more ratio enforcing.
Check this:
http://digg.com/tech_deals/GreedyTorrent_A_software_to_boost_your_bittorrent_upload_ratio - ineser, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0All private trackers just over implement the ratio system but then again, private trackers are there to keep the leechers off
- wurzelgummage, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1XDCC whiny.ratio.users.lzx
- ceedee, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0So private trackers that are so popular that they routinely find it necessary to limit membership (through invite systems) are supposed to listen to the opinions of Bram, who's on friendly terms with both the MPAA and Hollywood with whom he's developing a 'paid-delivery' system for DRM-protected material?
Yeah, right!
:)
(If the non-ratio public trackers were so wonderful, wouldn't the private, ratio-enforcing trackers cease to exist?) - NtHammer, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2its hard for me to share considering i have about a 40kbps upload speed and if im seeding while im online i have to turn it down to like 20 or 25 otherwise the internet is laggy as *****, there are also other reasons why strict share ratio rules are unfair, but that is my main reason for being a poor uploader (and the fact that i have to do everything in when my dad isnt online otherwise he FLIPS out)
- pillfred, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1*****, what does it matter what i say my ratio here on digg isn't that good. oh well.
- MercedRocks, on 10/12/2007, -5/+3This story is the original the other was THE DUPE....if you read the previous one it merely cites this article.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -8/+3didn't we have a front story about BT ratios already?
we need some diversity here. - chrome0011, on 10/12/2007, -6/+1del
- wafermouse, on 10/12/2007, -5/+0Fork?
- zbeast, on 10/12/2007, -8/+1Ok I used the wrong term. I don't care and you should not ether.
If bram makes use of patch as part of his version of the protocol.
Other branches of the protocol version of the bittorrent protocol use the patch. - meepus, on 10/12/2007, -9/+2I don't know why they're digging you down Brian, this -WAS- just on the front page. This story is a dupe, no doubt.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -9/+1Noone will digg this phall, many ppl die every day, who cares.
---
As for the ratio cheaters, I understand why this guy refuse to patch it. Anyway no matter how many ppl exploit this if there are few seeders for a huge file better if you don't start to dl it, if at least 50 ppl seeding the stuff then no matter who cheat with the ratio. BTW it's not too hard but site @pers bann u some place. Only thing u need HTTP analyzer and a firefox extension which change the agent type to asureus or bitcomet or other torrent client. - brickbat, on 10/12/2007, -16/+8Stop complaining and upload.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -11/+2Whats curious is that he DOESNT CARE ABOUT SHARE RATIOs, that DL speeds will be good enough irregardless of whether or not people UL stuff.
Think hes jaded now that he went "legit." Us other guys be dammed. - zbeast, on 10/12/2007, -15/+5I give a big I don't care. I haven't used bram's original client in forever.
It's not longer sophisticated enough to support my level of use. -
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