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61 Comments
- ph713, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5
They're crying because people use the leaked ads to buy the on-sale item ahead of time (like, today), then they can show on the day of the sale and get a price-match for the new sale price. Essentially, with the leaked info you can get Black Friday prices without camping out at their door at 5am, fighting the crowds, and wondering whether there's any of that item left on the shelf that day. - locojones, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5If I were BF's lawyer, I'd line my birdcage with the C&D letter. Here's why:
1) Copyright Infringement - In order for them to even step foot into the federal courthouse to sue for infringement, they have to first register their copyrights with the US Copyright Office. Until then, they have no exclusive rights to assert. Because of the transient nature of advertisements, and the fact that they change on a weekly basis, I seriously doubt they are wasting the time and money to copyright every single one of them every single week. Without registration, anything less is idle threats.
2) Trade secret - This one is almost laughable. Generally, a trade secret is (i) information, (ii) which is not generally known, (iii) which is used in the owner's business and which gives the owner a competitive advantage over those who do not know the information.
In this case, yes, pricing does qualify as "information." However, I would argue that the ads fail both the second and third part of the test. As for the second, one of the hallmarks of trade secrets is the fact that they are kept *drum roll please* SECRET. Coca-Cola has a trade secret in the formula for Coke. Why? Because they keep it locked in a vault. It is no longer a trade secret once it is released. This is exactly what happens when a business distributes its advertised prices to the public.
As for the third part, it is again difficult to gain a competitive advantage in the market place by informing your potential customers of your cheap prices without also informing your competitors of the same.
Regardless of whether the ads were leaked three weeks in advance, or merely the Sunday before BF, I cannot see how a trade secret argument could be made. I imagine it's possible, now that the leaked ads are public that small-chain appliance store could somehow offer their appliances at the same of cheaper price than Sears, but it's highly unlikely, especially due to the fact that most store's ads are probable all locked in for print this weekend. - nymphetamine, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Account #1
id: login8
pass: bugmenot
its too late anyway. thousands of people probably already have their list printed out and ready for black friday. - quasipalm, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1http://bf2005.com/
Some good deals.
Will companies never learn that lawsuits only attract people to the person you're suing? - JPhilipson, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Extreme Capitalism is just as bad as communism
- persianbeh, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1The reason they don't want people to know of sales early is because people won't buy stuff now at regular price, and just wait until the sale day. Just to let some of you people know.
- quasipalm, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Some great deals on the Comp USA section of that site:
200GB Internal Hard Drive (AR) $29.99
512MB USB 2.0 Flash Drive (AR) $9.99
Aiptek Mini Camcorder $49.99 - zyphbear, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Reading This story shows how somewhat unrealistic the retail management (and lawyers) think anymore. They don't seem to realize that people are going to get their hands on the flyers one way or another, wither that is now, or 2 weeks from now. Because another big part of it means you have to buy a paper, or subscribe regularly to one in order for you to see any of these "deals". I used to work retail (got out about 2 years ago), I will admit this in half a second, even worked at the "early bird special" at a big name toy store when I was in high school (yay for 4:15a meetings and prepping at the store filled with turkey) as well as others. Though the comment someone left about stores not wanting people to know of it due to buying at "regular" price is sorta a misnomer, they would love for you to buy it at regular price, but they also would rather protect their inventory, because of the "price match" you can take the ad in and get your money back anyway, stores know this. Its the 30 day rule. After all, they argue with you and you can always return it and buy again. They would rather people NOT buy their stock before black Friday, then run out and just have a "sorry, none left, no rain check" sign. (Big toy store example, yes, you could get truck daily of toys, but due to holiday shipping and manufacturing concerns, how many boxes/shipments of "Laser Challenge Team Force 2000" are going to be received from Nov 18 to Nov 25? Less than you think. 90% of the time You will get one shipment and cross your fingers no one wants it before BF.)
Though my answer would tend to agree with the one with the person from staples: "Don't call at 4a, We open at 5:30, thank you. (though it's also in the flyer)" - TheCheeta, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I'm sorry... did someone say something about Christmas? Talk about a complete loss of the point behind the Holiday.
- theblackgecko, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0If they can afford to lower their price, then they are charing more than they should.
- PapaSkunk, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Go Poly! Now that ITS finds out he's running a server in his dorm (must be Tenayah Hall), bf2005.com is about to disappear...
- uptown, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0...so if somebody copies the PDFs of of BF2005.net and posts them on their own site ... whose copyright are they infringing on then?
- mattyG, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0im sure another reason they're mad is that the competition will see the prices and then lower their prices a tad and get the customers
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0***** that. The reason it's known as "Black Friday" is because the masses of morons flocking together in a fit of insanity most closely resembles the apocalyptic vision of the end of the world. In fact, I think there's some ***** about Wal-mart and Costco in the Book of Revelations.
- iFindout, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0This issue is heaven and hell for the retailers. In my case, I'm going to go shop strickly and directly at the places that have stuff that I'd like to buy from the BF leaked ads. For me life's too short to go on diving expeditions in crowded stores so I can find out what killer specials they have waiting for me. If I couldn't plot my shopping power moves ahead of time with BF leaked ads, I wouldn't go shopping at all on BF or the following week. As it is right now, I'm ready to go thru my hit list.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I side with the companies.
- cypher35, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0some thing happens every year... the companies are all uptight about their prices, because when they get released early the competition has time to try to best them.
- jakv5, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0My favorite was the rant last year from the Best Buy CEO who complained about the customers who only buy the deals and nothing else
- antiTRACE, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Its going to be the biggest Black Friday in history, and they'll forget all about it then the registers go ching ching ching....
- eclectro, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0locojones - One problem with your copyright arguement - you don't have to register it anymore for it to be a valid copyright. Any half-assed scribble on the back of the receipt is automatically copyrighted.
Just another way that congress has knifed copyright law in the back. - secretivecoward, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0anything for publicity..it's disgusting
- superstevo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0oh yeah! And that's the way it should be..
- TKDWILSON, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0""".society unites for fairness against capitalist pigs under the flag of digg.com""""
1. Capitalism is good.
2., This is all a show for the threat. Don't you understand how the information leak helps them????????
Eric Wilson - Reliant, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0The only way that anyone can take advantage of these "fantastic offers", is to camp out the night before, and be the first four customers.
- slantyeyed, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0funny, you can't make money on Black Friday sales unless people know you have Black Friday sales. If I know Store A has a sale on stuff I want to buy, I'll go to Store A. I won't go to Store B that doesn't let me know they have sales until I get there.
- deez, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1what are they cribbing about... they are now getting gauranteed business on black friday. This should make the retailers happy.
- sencha5, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Ohhh snap. As someone who works for Staples, I'm gonna ask everyone reading this NOT to call us on 11.25. at 3am, the sale starts at 6. Thanks.
- yllabianbitpipe, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0i don't get it. isn't the point of a sale to get customers to buy your stuff? the site is basically giving them free advertising.
- uptown, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I remember a time when retailers used to want to advertise stuff they had for sale...
This reminds me of this guy I work with that no matter what I say, he starts his sentence with "no" because it wasn't his idea. This feels exactly what the retailers are doing. You'll get foot-traffic by offering good deals ... not by hiding your deals and assuming everybody's got time to hit every store in the land in 12 hours of traffic. - SkyJedi, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0"Funny, you can't make money on Black Friday sales unless people know you have Black Friday sales."
Everyone Knows Sales happen on Black Friday. Ads offically come out Sunday and all of this will mean less than @*%&^ - onimusha115, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0"Extreme Capitalism is just as bad as communism"
haha, yeah if your not one of the well to do capitalists, then its "Capitalism is great!"
its just like poor people saying money means nothing. - Terry2, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0ph713 is right - buy ahead and come back for the difference refund. My sister has been doing this for years with Target who would post their sale prices in the store a day before they began. She'd buy the item and come back the next day for a difference refund.
- knowitall, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0As good as some of the deals are, Black Friday is one of the several days of the year that I don't leave my house except to come to work. I don't even buy gas...
- zyphbear, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Oh and for those of you who would say "Retailers want you to buy other things at regular price on BF", Course they do, but how many "early birds" do you know go and buy anything but what is on sale in the flyers? Very Few. They get up at 5am for the $30 DVD player, $150 32' TV and $12 PS2 Games, not the same thing they cam buy later in the day/week/month before christmas, if they haven't already.
- locojones, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Eclectro -
Actually, what you stated is not true. While any piece of expressive material is automatically afforded copyright protection, in order to sue on a violation of that protection, the copyright must be registered with the Copyright Office.
See 17 USC 501(b) - "The legal or beneficial owner of an exclusive right under a copyright is entitled, subject to the requirements of section 411, to institute an action for any infringement...committed while he or she is the owner of it."
See 17 USC 411(a) - "...no action for infringement of the copyright in any United States work shall be instituted until registration of the copyright claim has been made in accordance with this title." - jwa131, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Well, here is the real issue. If retailers are so upset, then they shouldn't leak it. :D
- johaus, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0What interested me was there aren't hyperlinks for the sites which were the focus of the story - but there are links to pages describing the corporations. Is the New York Times afraid of something? What gives?
- spacenettnet, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0LocoJones, You are 100% right man. I appreciate your intelligent responses.
- lonelycanuck, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Oh yes - new TV here I come
Shameless Self Plug - http://www.lonelycanuck.com - slapout, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0"Won't somebody please think about the children!?"
They did -- they scanned the Toy R Us ad in. - HiddenPeanuts, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Makes me think about how much the 'net has changed shopping. As a kid I'd spend hours calling stores in the area to find the best deal on the hot video game of the moment. I still have a fond spot in my heart for Toys R Us after a particularly helpful employee went really out of his way for me.
- recursive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0locojones: ... any piece of expressive material is automatically afforded copyright protection ...
Smokezz: That is incorrect. You do not have to register something for it to be copyrighted. ...
Smoke, that is exactly what he said. Go re-read the comment you disagree with, only this time slow down a little bit. - aliensporebomb, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Triton - isn't the 2GB Nano already $199? It's the
regularly advertised price. - triton, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0OMG - Radio Shack has "Apple iPod Nano 2GB MP3 Player" for $199
Unless you plan on camping out they'll probably be sold out by the time. - MacHarborGuy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Triton, here is the thing. You don't have to camp out. Buy it today for the normal price, then come back on Black Friday, return it and rebuy it for the lower price.
The BF2005.com moto is "Refund/Rebuy" afterall. - MasterDwarf, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Power to the people!!
- LabattsBlue, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0LOL... you'll see the guy that runs bf2005 has succumbed to the pressure by removing the offending office depot logo and renaming them to 'office despot'! :-) I love it!
- jdryyz, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0The BestBuy listing shows: "eMachines Intel Celeron D Processor 340 Computer w/ 17" CRT Monitor" for $149. Not bad. Anyone know what specific model this is?
- Vektuz, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I find it amusing that the industry people sending out the cease and desists complain that "if competitors know about the prices beforehand they can undercut us."
That actually sounds good to me.
go ahead, undercut each other.
It benefits the consumer for you to do that... - Smokezz, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0locojones: That is incorrect. You do not have to register something for it to be copyrighted. However, easy way around this, don't display the entire advertisment they intend to send out. Just have a listing of the prices. You can't copyright the price list :)
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