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- NSResponder, on 10/12/2007, -101/+513In TFA, BG says "The number [of violations] will be way less because we’ve done some dramatic things [to improve security] in the code base. Apple hasn’t done any of those things."
Which is a very tricky way to lie. Apple hasn't made the "dramatic" changes that MS has had to, because they weren't starting from a fundamentally botched security model in the first place.
-jcr - colincornaby, on 10/12/2007, -63/+422Apple did make a dramatic change. It was back in 2000 when they switched kernels, and added different user modes. Essentially the same thing Microsoft did in Vista. Microsoft has just been 7 years late.
- shiftt, on 10/12/2007, -66/+418"I mean, it’s fascinating, maybe we shouldn't have showed so publicly the stuff we were doing, because we knew how long the new security base was going to take us to get done. Nowadays, security guys break the Mac every single day. Every single day, they come out with a total exploit, your machine can be taken over totally. I dare anybody to do that once a month on the Windows machine."
What the *****? Where the hell does Bill get his "facts" from? - mateo60, on 10/12/2007, -16/+157Exploits completely taking over Apple machines in OS X daily? Huh?? He could NEVER say crap like that to a tech publication and get away with it.
So, any OS X users had their machines taken over today? :P - drakethegreat, on 10/12/2007, -27/+144Later he claims that there is an Apple exploit capable of fully compramising a Mac on a regular basis. So its quite obvious that while Gates is right about the Mac ads being deceptive, he just turned around and did the same thing. He claims after this comment that he would challenge people to find a similar exploit one a month. Another incredibly deceptive lie because he says Windows not Vista. It's proven fact that there has been more then one major exploit per month for certain months with XP. I guess time will tell in regards to whether its true for Vista as well but either way Gates wasn't in a position to make such a radical claim, especially after claiming a complete lie about Mac OS X.
- ThatsUnpossible, on 10/12/2007, -20/+137"Nowadays, security guys break the Mac every single day. Every single day, they come out with a total exploit, your machine can be taken over totally. I dare anybody to do that once a month on the Windows machine."
Dare? People already do this way more than once a month on Windows. What the hell does he think Black Tuesday is all about? And that's only for the stuff that they fix! - atmablue, on 10/12/2007, -24/+140"Nowadays, security guys break the Mac every single day. Every single day, they come out with a total exploit, your machine can be taken over totally. I dare anybody to do that once a month on the Windows machine."
Now in this scenario, Bill Gates has switched the word "Mac" with the word "Windows" and vice versa without the audience's knowledge. Watch as the hilarity ensues! - uownedge, on 10/12/2007, -33/+121Yeah, that's about it. I think Billy boy is starting to lose it. Last I checked, its the Windows machines that have the frequent security issues.
Sure, Mac OS isn't perfect, but the security model has been far superior for years now. It's one of the best reasons to use a Mac, for crying out loud.
It's just one of those areas that Microsoft has been struggling with for a long time, and will probably do so into the future. - brstilson, on 10/12/2007, -16/+97"Mac people can claim their OS's superiority any day of the week, but until their OS is the majority leader with millions of intelligent people who's job involves breaking the OS for profit, the claims are baseless."
Then explain the fact that Unix and Linux are much more secure than Windows even when they completely dominate the server market, with millions of users on their own. That argument is so tired and has been proven wrong many times. - scooterbaga, on 10/12/2007, -56/+133Weren't most of those bugs he found *****?
- Asianne, on 10/12/2007, -26/+102I took the time to read the article, I'm very disappointed in Gate's answers to this interview. Vista wasn't even 3 hours old before the Voice Controls were compromised. He may have an out on that dare, if you think about it - you'll probably find more than 1 security issue in Vista every week - higher than his one month challenge.
Lost a lot of respect for Gates after this article, just another idiot that has no leg to stand on because Vista sales are not as high as anticipated. go ms. He should have taken interview lessons with Steve Jobs. - colincornaby, on 10/12/2007, -37/+95"Yep. That and when your servers start at $3000, you'll find that there are so few on the internet that it's not worth trying to exploit them."
I'm yet to find Dell servers of the same specs for cheaper.
(Go ahead and do a comparison. You'll find Apple's servers are the cheapest out of all the major hardware vendors.) - brlittle, on 10/12/2007, -16/+74Gates' responses show, I think, how detached the man is becoming from the average user's reality. Which is hardly surprising.
And no, this is not a Mac fanboy comment. I use both Mac OS X and Windows Vista all day, every day. It's just a fact that Gates doesn't seem to have much of a real grasp of what a yawner Vista is for Joe User. - edzieba, on 10/12/2007, -14/+70And Steve Jobs ISN'T a salesman running a company?
- ckohler, on 10/12/2007, -34/+83"He was then asked what he thought about the 'surgery' commercial. His responce, you'll have to undergo a far bigger hardware change to run OSX."
He doesn't understand the message of the ad. It's saying that simply upgrading your OS shouldn't require you to buy entirely new hardware and/or force you to install updated drivers. Over the years, Mac OS X upgrades have consistently run as fast if not faster on the existing Mac hardware available at the time of their release. - geoken, on 10/12/2007, -64/+110Seems like everything he said was pretty logical.
He was asked what he thought of Hodgman's stereotypical character and his answer was that he doesn't think the average Windows user thinks of themeselves as a dullard or klutz.
He was then asked what he thought about the 'surgery' commercial. His responce, you'll have to undergo a far bigger hardware change to run OSX.
The last question about stolen features, he basically says what everyone has been telling mac fanboys for years; that all the features were shown in early betas of Vista before they were shown in OSX.
All his responces were truthful. Apple claims the opposite ie. hey acuse MS of copying them, they imply that upgrading to vista requires more of a hardware change than upgrading to OSX, etc. All he did was point out that they are being very deceptive with their marketing. - Machine, on 10/12/2007, -9/+50strictnein - I'm running the latest version of OSX on a 5 year old G4 and Tiger is much faster than Jaguar was. I'll be getting a new Mac when Leopard comes out... simply because the hardware is starting to give out on my old laptop... from heavy use... but I'm in no hurry... and I'll bet you that 10.5 will run just fine on G4s and G5s.
- cquinnd, on 10/12/2007, -31/+70re: colincornaby - Technically, the same capabilties were in Windows NT based OSes from the mid-90s, and were fairly easy to implement in Windows 2000 and XP. Microsoft was just late in making it a default setting in the OS.
- Fedge, on 10/12/2007, -4/+42@ strictnein
"Not a lot of people running OSX on their original G3 or G4s. The performance is absolute crap. And good luck upgrading those."
I'm not sure where you got that information, but I've been running OS X on my G3 iBook and my G4 Powerbook for years. OS X has significantly increased the speed at which these two notebooks run. Every time apple has realeased a major upgrade, my machines have run FASTER. Good luck running Vista on your Pentium IIIs. - uownedge, on 10/12/2007, -23/+57Yeah, the Month of Apple bugs project pretty much bombed. A lot of what he was getting at were bugs in third party apps -- not the OS, or even Apple's applications.
I think it's kind of silly that he's daring people to try to do that to Windows. That's just asking for trouble. - fr3nch13, on 10/12/2007, -22/+55"NEWSWEEK: If one of our readers confronted you in a CompUSA and said, “Bill, why upgrade to Vista?” what would be your elevator pitch?
Bill Gates: The most effective thing would be if I could sit down with them and just take them through the new look for a couple of minutes, show them the Sidebar, show them the way the search lets you go through lots of things, including lots of photos. Set up a parental control. And then I might edit a high-definition movie and make a little DVD that's got photos. As I went through, they'd think"...
“Wow, I can already do this on my Mac?” - geoken, on 10/12/2007, -16/+45Considering the average 2 year old or newer PC can run Vista fine, I think the 'some will, some won't' comment is pretty justified.
And how was he 'stuck into the mac ads'? The question about surgery was directly refrencing the mac ads, specifically the one were Hodgman is undergoing surgery. Bill Gates was asked what he thought about these ads. How is his direct answering of a question analogous to him being fixated on the topic? - tafkase7en, on 10/12/2007, -6/+35"Well, certainly we've done a better job letting you upgrade on the hardware than our competitors have done."
OH SNAP BILL! - strictnein, on 10/12/2007, -9/+36@cquinnd:
Exactly. With previous Windows OS's everyone was basically at Admin/root level. The big change is that now, by default, you're not. A Windows LUA is used widely by many corporations and severely limits the possibility of exploits. - aeonoftime, on 10/12/2007, -6/+33With Vista Microsoft has done a brave thing which Apple didn't even do. They have gone back and rewritten the TCP/IP stack. However the stack in Unix/Linux/OS X is a tested and hardened stack. Thus Vista is going to be wide open. Several security experts found holes in the stack that made it look like Swiss cheese during the beta phases. I am guessing that there are still many holes that still sit in that stack. However the potential performance that could be had out of the stack could be better, but alas it will take even more time to harden.
- kethraal, on 10/12/2007, -2/+29"Not a lot of people running OSX on their original G3 or G4s. The performance is absolute crap. And good luck upgrading those."
I'm gonna go ahead and guess you haven't actually... you know... tried to run Tiger on a G3 or G4. It works fine. No, you won't be able to play UT2004 at 1600x1200... but you will be able to do everyday tasks just fine.
How do I know? Well, I'm typing this from an iMac DV SE (400mhz G3 and 384MB of RAM)... it's happily running Tiger. Yes, it's not blazingly fast... but it's nowhere near "absolute crap"... far from it. I do my day to day coding, web browsing, and e-mail on a G4 Cube. It works great.
Performance _has_ steadily increased since 10.0. I've run every version of OS X on that iMac, and I've enjoyed a speed increase with each major version. - cocoamix, on 10/12/2007, -7/+34From the article:
"If you’re interested, [Vista development chief] Jim Allchin will be glad to educate you feature by feature what the truth is. "
You mean this Jim Alchin?
"I would buy a Mac today if I was not working at Microsoft. If you run the equivalent of VPC on a Mac you get access to basically all Windows application software (although not the hardware). Apple did not lose their way . . . my point is about the philosophy that Apple uses. They think scenario. They think simple. They think fast."
-Jim Allchin? - aristotle0dude, on 10/12/2007, -2/+28@betterth: How is it hardly unix anymore? Unix is a standard of APIs and services provided by the OS as well as a standard set of commands and shells. Generic unix programs compile fine on OS X without any add-on ports systems like Fink. It is only when software had dependencies based on linux distros when you need some extra libraries and infrastructure from projects like Fink.
If you were to place an admin used to working with Solaris in front of an OS X Server box, you would find that he/she would be quite comfortable using it
Google unix timeline and you will see the ancestry of OS X and see that it is clearly an ancestor of both BSD and System V. - strictnein, on 10/12/2007, -21/+47@colincornaby:
I won't go into how easy it is to spec rack mounted Dells that are under $3k, so let's just try to compare similar hardware:
Dell:
2x Dual Core Intel® Xeon® 5148LV, 4MB Cache, 2.33GHz, 1333MHz FSB
2GB 667MHz (2x1GB), Dual Ranked DIMMs
73GB, SAS
Warranty: 3Yr BASIC SUPPORT: 5x10 HW-Only, 5x10 NBD Onsite [Included in Price]
$3,547
Apple:
2x 2.0GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon (slower, but they don't have the 2.33GHz as an option)
2GB (4x512MB)
73GB SAS
Warranty: 1 year (?)
$3,597.00 - Tmacman, on 10/12/2007, -8/+32Hey Bill, why so defensive about the Mac? I mean, you own 90% of the OS world. Lighten up.
- OBKenobi, on 10/12/2007, -6/+30A pro-MS story on MS-NBC right when Vista is launched? How could that be?
Just when yesterday I said this would happen, it happens the next day! These evil overlords are so predictable.
Well, I guess there's no law about accepting ad money for astroturfing. They just shouldn't call it "news". - writh3n, on 10/12/2007, -6/+30I bought a mac once, it was ***** out of control. It came out of the box and punched me in the month, stole my car, and proceeded to pick up hookers in it. I called the police and they eventually caught him, but by that time he had already beheaded 4 of the hookers he had picked up and was all strung out on coke.
Oh wait, this is a box full of plastic and metal, it has as much personality as every other box of metal and plastic. - geoken, on 10/12/2007, -6/+29Maybe it has something to do with the interviewer directly asking him a question about macs.
- colincornaby, on 10/12/2007, -8/+30@strictnein
Did you include unlimited client Windows Server? - danielwsmithee, on 10/12/2007, -8/+30I'd like a link to that Dell server you speced out please, because here you can price it for $5422 without an OS ingoring the fact that the Apple server comes with Tiger server.
http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=555&l=en&oc=MLB1675&s=biz
Oh wait maybe you have one of those hidden Dell coupons that are so infamous. - KirinDave, on 10/12/2007, -5/+24The Xserve line is due for a refresh, and is not currently a good value.
Wait until you can see what I see in Leopard Server. - TimmyGUNZ, on 10/12/2007, -4/+22"Bill Gates is a better businessman that Steve Jobs will ever, ever, ever be. Steve Jobs is a celebrity running a company. A great public speaker. Bill Gates is a nerd and a highly intelligent businessman. Bill Gates will not let Steve Jobs do anything but quiet the annoying minority who hates Windows."
I wonder if Sony thought the same thing about Reggie Fils-Aime? - lukas88, on 10/12/2007, -10/+27People who are wondering if Mac really has more exploits should read this article:
http://blogs.zdnet.com/Ou/index.php?p=165 - miker71, on 10/12/2007, -7/+23"right now when you move from one PC to another, you've got to install apps on each one, do upgrades on each one. Moving information between them is very painful. We can use Live Services [a way to connect to Microsoft via the Internet] to know what you're interested in. So even if you drop by a [public] kiosk or somebody else's PC, we can bring down your home page, your files, your fonts, your favorites and those things. So that's kind of the user-centric thing that Live Services can enable. [Also,] in Vista things got a lot better with [digital] ink and speech but by the next release there will be a much bigger bet. Students won't need textbooks, they can just use these tablet devices. Parallel computing is pretty important for the next release. We'll make it so that a lot of the high-level graphics will be just built into the operating system. So we've got a pretty good outline."
Only if you rely on Microsoft products which require activation. - sporkmonger, on 10/12/2007, -2/+18@svartgotik
Er, no, you're talking about apples and oranges here.
The Mac ad is implying that you need hardware upgrades to even run Vista at all, which is largely true. Whereas virtually all Mac users who want to run Leopard when it comes out will simply put in the CD, run the install and be done with it. In fact, most new versions of OS X have ended up being faster than the previous version on the same hardware. This has never been the case for any version of Windows, as far as I know. As such, the "upgrade" in the commercial would not involve buying a new Mac.
And for the record, Walt Mossberg's column in the Washington Post on Vista basically said that if you want Vista, you should probably just buy a new computer with it pre-installed.
All that said, it's kind of silly to be arguing over the validity of an -advertisement-. I mean, seriously.
(speaking as someone who actively uses both OS X and Windows and likes both for what they're good for) - montyjs, on 10/12/2007, -4/+20"He was asked what he thought of Hodgman's stereotypical character and his answer was that he doesn't think the average Windows user thinks of themeselves as a dullard or klutz."
He completely misunderstood the ad. The ad does not depict people using a PC as dullards or klutzes, but the hardware itself. The ad says. "Hey, why are you using a business machine instead of something simpler." In one particular commercial, it depicts the PC as worn out because he was used by kids for media.
Gates has to realize he himself is a business nerd. He makes things for business. Macs are made for the average joe computer user. - weareglass, on 10/12/2007, -0/+16@81v3d07g0d
Not using an operating system because you perceive its users to be something is not very practical at all. It's just plain silly. For every ridiculous Mac zealot, there's a ridiculous anti-Mac zealot. There are sensible people who use Windows, Macs, Unix, Linux, BSD, everything. Pick your operating system and machine based on their inherent qualities, not in their respective fanbases. - laterallateral, on 10/12/2007, -2/+18Oh right.. I see where you're going here... like the only reason why I'm wearing black jeans today is because white jeans exist - kinda thing, right?
That's deep, man. - runeasgar, on 10/12/2007, -14/+29who needs bill to say that? I have os x, vista, ubuntu and xp running on my laptop.. and there is VERY little question as to which is the best; os x, hands down. i don't need gates to tell me that.
- gsnedders, on 10/12/2007, -1/+16… and Apple shipped indexed searching in Mac OS 8.6 in the '90s. BeOS had indexed search also in the '90s. MS didn't invent it.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+15" Not a lot of people running OSX on their original G3 or G4s. The performance is absolute crap. And good luck upgrading those."
I am running the current OS X on a beige G3, an iMac G3, a Powerbook G3, and 2 G4 cubes. Granted, they are not fastest machines, but they all run faster now than they did with their original OS's. The iMac G3 and the 2 G4 Cubes serve as file share backups (with their new massive hard drives) and all are used for playing Music throughout the house over the network and for general web browsing. One of the G4 cubes is connected to my projector and I use it all the time to surf the web... I even run Google earth on it. (the app gave me a message that the sys reqs were too low, but it runs fine anyway ). The old Powerbook (over 6 years now!) runs OS X great and I take it on trips for web surfing at the hotels. (I do need a new battery, though)
So, while I still use a dual-G5 (it's over 2 years old and still runs super) for my major work... These older machines still work fine and you are talking out of the side of your ass with made-up information. =-p - Thuktun, on 10/12/2007, -12/+27"And I don't know why [Apple is] acting like it’s superior."
Er, because that's what companies do to sell their product over their competitors' products, make themselves appear to be a superior product. - strictnein, on 10/12/2007, -37/+51"It's saying that simply upgrading your OS shouldn't require you buy entirely new hardware or force you to install new drivers."
Why shouldn't an OS require new drivers? I'm confused at your logic on that one.
And how is that any different than what Apple offers? Not a lot of people running OSX on their original G3 or G4s. The performance is absolute crap. And good luck upgrading those. - Damhna, on 10/12/2007, -0/+14Or they would be wondering why this guy is sitting down in an elevator
- tackle, on 10/12/2007, -9/+22Bill Gates ran Microsoft into the ground???
What are you smoking?? -
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