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- DisneyNut, on 10/12/2007, -1/+25I've already cancelled my Amazon Prime membership and am ready to cancel my affiliate membership with Amazon if they don't drop this crazy lawsuit. How can they have a workshop with independent developers while at the same time sue this guy for taking advantage of publicly accessible data... data that Amazon wants people to use to help me Amazon better.
- thekohser, on 10/12/2007, -0/+21The fact that Amazon would sue over being jealous that an outside developer found a better way to render their publicly-released data, means that I won't be buying anything on Amazon for the rest of this year. I'll reconsider in 2008.
- Yorn, on 10/12/2007, -0/+12When you're done reading that, please click the following link and uninstall Alexa toolbar:
http://www.alexa.com/site/help/?index=37
I'm not going to reinstall it till they drop the lawsuit *AND* issue a formal apology. We provide them their data, without us they wouldn't have a business, and yet they turn around and sue one of us. - squidooguru, on 10/12/2007, -0/+12No one wins a lawsuit - except the lawyers.
- saigumi, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9Sure, that's the Disney angle of it.
Disney takes works from the public domain, recreates it, and holds it as their own IP. In turn, suing anyone who infringes on their IP and vigorously altering copyright law to protect their work from going back into the public domain.
"I use to work at a search engine company and I know it cost Alexa MILLIONS to harvest and display that traffic data." *Buzz* Wrong. Alexa gets it's data from volunteers. They design a way to access that data, and that is the feature they are selling. A worthy business model.
The problem is, you now have developers looking at paying to use their API and thinking "If I get too popular, Alexa is going to steal my ideas and cut me off." Basically, Alexa is getting a bunch of demo's and being paid for it at the same time instead of paying someone to work out ideas for them. If they find something they want, they just say "Your money is no good here." and slap that into their application. - oonthi, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Talk about a PR disaster. They'll be raking up their PR $$$ defending this alongside lawyer fees in coming days and weeks. I feel for Alexaholic guy.
- cjwl, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I hope this explodes in Amazon's face.
- innovas, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Its really a bad news... i love alexaholic
- dreicher, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't he essentially scraping the data from Alexa's site and repurposing it for his site? Why not just use the API's? I understand there is a fee, but if they've made the data available and put the fee restriction on it...
Okay, that out of the way...Amazon WTF? - liminaldust, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3tuzziel you keep thinking that way, corporate-minded visionless *****.
the world will be a thousand years behind with this kind of attitude
people should be allowed to innovate. If your innovation is a heck of a lot better than the originator of an idea, you're doing something right
alexa was a failing, less than useful service; revived by alexaholic rather than falling into oblivion
if alexa has improved their interfaces and gotten back on the track thanks to this man,
they should be sitting on the table with him, not be suing him
I agree he should not make a fortune off the back of alexa without paying them back.
however, whether he does or not doesn't even change the fact that in these circumstances alexa is backstabbing this developer in the least honorable way - mattsidesinger, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Oh yeah, well I used to work at a search engine company too and I KNOW that the capital of Florida is Disney World.
- WillyWonka, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3It says in the article though that he changed the logo/site after they pointed out to him that it wasn't allowed and BEFORE they filed the lawsuit. That shouldn't be in the lawsuit. The rest of it, dunno...
- jjesusfreak01, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Cept Google does not charge for it...
The article mentions he changed his sites name before the lawsuit, when he found out that the Alexa folks were wary of it. He was not competing with Alexa anyways, just trying to make their services better, which is why he did not have a problem using the logo before. He essentially was running a fansite. - Yorn, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4This is what puzzles me:
Public installs Alexa toolbar -> Alexa holds data -> Alexiholic provides great interface.
What is it about Alexa's position in this relationship that makes them feel entitled to his product? After all, they basically stole his ideas when they found out people were using his site because they found the Alexa interfaces unusable.
Since they weren't happy being a middleman, perhaps it's time to uninstall the toolbar and eliminate the middleman? - feralwombat, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@saigumi
How exactly is IanRReardon wrong? His claim is that it costs Alexa millions to harvest and display the data, and you say that is not true? Just because people voluntarily install a toolbar does not in any way mean there is no cost to Alexa. There are design costs of the toolbar, bandwidth costs, other utility costs, employee costs, storage costs, and much more that are all directly related to harvesting and displaying the data.
As for Alexa's actions and the chilling effect it could have on developers, yeah, I agree with you. But let's not argue that the harvesting and displaying do not cost Alexa millions of dollars. - iainc, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I've spent thousands with Amazon. I really feel bad for Mr Hornbaker and hope things don't turn out bad for him. I've just contact Amazon to tell them where they can stick any future purchases if they go ahead with this nonsense. Plenty more bookstores around.
- WTF4, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2For me, the main issue seems to be that "graphs are not a part of Alexa API", so when Alexaholic links to them - Amazon doesn't get paid. I have had similar problems with other companies who usually don't have any problems when sites link to one or two of their images/charts, but if the new business is built around their proprietary data (which they haven't made accessible through API) - that's another issue.
If Alexaholic would only access Alexa API and not link directly to graphs, I think there would not be a problem.
This is from Hornbaker post (http://ronhornbaker.com/alexas-indelicate-handling-of-statsaholic/):
"Why hasn’t Alexa made the graphs part of their official API and charged per request? They’ve done it with their website thumbnail images, and with data, but why not with the graphs? I would be their FIRST CUSTOMER for such a service, as long as it was priced appropriately. I’m already paying them several hundred dollars each month for data, and would gladly pay for graphs. The fact that they haven’t charged for them, and allow any website in the world (except mine) to link to them, says to me that they only mind hotlinking if the hotlinker becomes successful. Which should give every Amazon/Alexa api developer pause for thought."
Unfortunately if a Alexa didn't explicitly allow access to the graphs, you can only link to them at your own risk. If Alexa decides to block your access - I think they are totally in their right to do it. - jjesusfreak01, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Remember that all the data is acquired from normal people who use the Alexa toolbar. I think they should stop using the toolbar and offer to continue when Alexa pays them.
- jellygraph, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1boo hiss
- sambo357, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Whatever McFly. My life improved drastically the day I ***** one bully up. The next day I let the other one have it too.
- diggypop, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Direct link to 43-page lawsuit: http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/z/200701/show_case_doc-1.pdf
- fakturist, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Seriously? You want us all to live in cowardly fear. F that.. we're masters of our own destiny and sometimes the "fight" (regardless of it's outcome) is what truly defines us. You're a coward. Plain and simple..
- tuzziel, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1@liminaldust
I understand your view, but try to imagine you are running your own website, where you carefully collect data or pay for that data, or pay for news feed from real people to create that content, then some other people will come and try to collect that data of yours, harvest and data-mine your information for their own good, e.i.: NewYorkTimesHolics.com, would use NYTimes.com rearanged content with their own advertisement (!?) Is this way of your "innovation"? - kernelhappy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1I don't know enough about the tech or the suit to say whether or not he was improperly using Amazon property without proper compensation. But lets assume he did violate terms of use or infringed on their IP. If the article is correct they copied some of his ideas and integrated them into their own products. ....IANAL... but just because he improperly used their intellectual property or product I don't see how that justifies their copying his intellectual property into their product. As an example, Vonage is in trouble because they are found to be infringing on Verizon's patents, I don't believe that meansVerizon has a right to Vonage derivative features.
If this situation arose a few years ago, I'm sure Alexaholic would be in talks if not signed to a agreement letter for an acquisition without any mention of a lawsuit. In all honesty what could Alexaholic be worth? Amazon would have been better off saying, "hey nice features, if we buy them cheap we can create some excitement among other developers that the chance of hitting the acquisition lottery post bubble, is still alive" and maybe entice even more people to develop and use their products. Of course it's possible that this whole suit was just an attempt at a media grab gone bad.. - saigumi, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Yorn,
Having a business based on data aggregation is quite normal. Data Mining is very lucrative.
It's almost anagoulous to Google. They "sell" information on sites out there. They are capitalizing on the content you made. - bobfoster, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0There seems to be a simple answer: boycott the Alexa toolbar until Amazon backs off.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0ok seriously, who uses alexa data at all? i've never understood that. why would i care where my competitors rank in an inaccurate ranking system? not to mention that if your site isnt in the top 10,000, your data is even bigger garbage.
/rant
amazon shouldve just tossed him a few bucks for his work. instead, they want to be bullies. - zurp, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1The dude disapproves.
- adam.skinner, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1While I think that Amazon is definitely in the wrong here ("Hey, let's steal all the innovation from this small developer and then sue him into oblivion for doing what we implicitly sanction everyone else to do"), I love Amazon prime. You've already paid for it, and canceling it isn't going to hurt anyone but you.
- IanRReardon, on 10/12/2007, -8/+6This guy is taking Alexa graphics and data and calling it his own. He is doing it outside the API and violating Alexa's trademark. Did you see his graphic before he changed his name. It was the Alexa logo with "aholic" at the end. Thats like me starting Google2, using googles exact logo and putting a multi colored 2 at the end.
I use to work at a search engine company and I know it cost Alexa MILLIONS to harvest and display that traffic data. This guy is just leaching onto it. Its totally not right. Even though he might have better features and option, it doesn't give him the right to capitalize off of Alexa's 10+ years of harvesting web data.
The API is a f-ing gift from Alexa. Alexa is saying, hey developers we're going to give you access to all this data, we just want you to use it this way. What the hell is wrong with that? Google makes you use its API to run programmatic queries. No one yells at google, its the same *****. - tuzziel, on 10/12/2007, -5/+2That dude obviously stole the data from Alexa and wrapped that data in his own interface, the interface carries advertisement and he added his own ad feed. More so, he also misused Alexa brand in his own mashup website. Thats what we call website exploitation. Really, this is nothing else, but major offense. I mean, if this would be allowed then anybody could make websites on top of major data feed sites or news sites. Mashups work on small scale, personal scale, but not on major site level. That is a really bad business and bad idea in general.
- slmdmd, on 10/12/2007, -3/+0Lesson learnt in shool - Don't mess with the bullies. My sympathy is with the guy. But, is it not true that the Bullies(the corporates) rule the world. So it would be better to run for cover, we all are the slaves of the corporate in one way or the other. The corporates control the govt, the judges, the media, in few days the internet too. So what makes all the diggers think that their support will enable the guy to win. Yeah, may be the 'non-violent strike' threat. Yes, it did topple many.
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