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$8,000-per-gallon printer ink leads to antitrust lawsuit

arstechnica.com — HP paid Staples $100 million to stop selling third-party ink cartridges, according to a lawsuit from a disgruntled man tired of high printer ink prices. The lawsuit accuses the companies of violating antitrust law to keep third-party cartridges off the shelves at Staples stores.

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  • mykool, on 12/18/2007, -5/+289Wow, if this is true this thing needs to go class action - put my name on the list. This is total BS.
    • yikiad, on 12/18/2007, -15/+30class action lawsuits are mostly *****. the only ones that benefit are the lawyers. The represented consumers will probably get around $5, and the lawyers will get millions. They have there place, but not on cases like this.
      • itsameericle, on 12/18/2007, -0/+4edit: i meant to reply to mykool...
        Read the first line of the article. It is class action.
        But yes, I agree.
      • calon9, on 12/18/2007, -1/+48While I agree with your statement, I don't agree with: "They have there place, but not on cases like this."

        A class-action vehicle for this case is useful; Not to get money back to consumers, but to bring the fact that printer manufacturers are 'ink bullies' and that HP and Staples allegedly entered into this agreement, and penalizing them from a monetary and publicity point of view for doing so.
        • yikiad, on 12/18/2007, -1/+3good point. note taken.
        • yaddayaddayoda, on 12/19/2007, -0/+0Well, one thing to note is that printer ink is not $8000 a gallon. You buy an ink cartridge, check. You buy a reservoir of ink, check. You also buy a disposable print head that is good for a certain number of pages. That costs money. HP loses money on every inkjet printer they sell at retail (and lose more at discounted retail). They make that money up on sales of inkjet cartridges. Imagine ink carts costing $25 and printers costing $750... just a thought.
      • FunkyELF, on 12/18/2007, -0/+54I don't really care if I get any money. The important thing is for HP and or Staples to get their asses sued off and prevent others from doing the same.
        Cell phone industry should be next
        • Jlaugh, on 12/18/2007, -2/+4Yeah, the disposable lifestyle has to go we should sue the ***** out of all wasteful companies.
          • MarkOfTheDead, on 12/18/2007, -0/+4No, don't be ridiculous, sue the ***** out of companies that are trying to keep a stranglehold monopoly on specific markets by paying off retailers to exclusively carry ONLY their overpriced product.
      • crash331, on 12/18/2007, -2/+29I wonder why? Maybe because the lawyers are the ones doing the resarch, going to court, presenting the case, etc. while all the consumers do is sit at home and say "GIMME MONEY!"

        Lawsuits like that aren't meant to make millionaires out of everyone that ever purchased an ink cartridge. It's to penalize the people who make the ink cartridges.
        • willfe, on 12/18/2007, -1/+8"all the consumers do is sit at home and say 'GIMME MONEY!'" ... having also been ripped off/defrauded/scammed in the first place.

          Just thought I'd point that out :)
        • Dachublez, on 12/19/2007, -1/+2@willfe
          I bet lawyers use way more ink than the average consumer which means they have also been ripped off/defrauded/scammed in the first place.

          Just thought I'd point that out :)
      • bxblox, on 12/18/2007, -0/+4Once i signed up for a class action suit against the recording industry for some ***** that didnt make sense to me... 6 months later i got a check for $9 in the mail...
        • coheedcollapse, on 12/19/2007, -0/+1I was in on that same thing. It was a class action lawsuit about how they priced their CDs to a ludicrous level. Yeah, hasn't changed anything.

          At least I got my $9.
      • mustang460, on 12/18/2007, -0/+8class action lawsuits are not about making money, there about making change
    • EdgarVerona, on 12/18/2007, -0/+11It sure looks true. Like I said in a post below, I went to staples just yesterday to find an HP ink cartridge, and generics were nowhere to be found... but there were generics for every competing brand of printer.
      • fac3less, on 12/18/2007, -7/+9Oh, oh. Hint: Buy another printer brand!
        • EdgarVerona, on 12/18/2007, -2/+12Aren't we cheeky today?

          The printer was my wife's printer from before we got married. She does graphic design, so it needs to be a high quality printer... and there's no way we could afford a printer of this quality currently. We're stuck with it until we can afford a comparable quality printer of another brand.
          • Tenoq, on 12/19/2007, -0/+3I call *****. If you can afford to buy HP original inks, then you can afford a new printer - they're practically the same cost. Unless you're talking about a colour laser or a DesignJet then you're talking out your ass. Any inkjet you've got that's more than a year old already has a cheaper, better replacement available in another brand. The inkjet industry advances very quickly.
        • MarkOfTheDead, on 12/18/2007, -0/+5So you can use HP brand name catridges on one of those? Doesn't really solve the problem.
    • Devrdander, on 12/18/2007, -6/+9IANAL and Not that I like the cost of ink, but Staples isn't exactly a monopoly. Companies sign exclusivity deals all the time to sell just one product. I didn't think there was a law saying that staples had to sell anything they didn't want to. And HP doesn't have a monopoly on printers either. The only one that could potentially sue is the third party ink manufacturers for anti competitive actions but i think that would be a stretch. I think this is fair game, so play ball its business...
      • skyteria, on 12/18/2007, -4/+3Wxclusivity deals = monopolistic behaviour.
        • Devrdander, on 12/18/2007, -0/+3If they did it with Staples, Office Depot, and Office Max i would say it would be a different story. But the government doesn't regulate Staples and if Staples only wants to sell HP Ink because HP gives them a discount or kick back thats up to them. And if you don't like it goto one of the others mentioned above. This court case wont go far.
          • Gir53457, on 12/18/2007, -0/+1However they do monitor gross inflations of product prices.
    • Valleye, on 12/18/2007, -8/+2You can pay the real price for the ink but then that means you have to pay the real price for the printers. Here's looking forward to paying $300 for printers again.
      • CedEx, on 12/18/2007, -1/+16I'd rather get railed once on the printer purchase than get railed time and time again for each ink cartridge purchase.
      • s1mph0ny, on 12/19/2007, -0/+3Those $30 printers aren't exactly precision machines.
    • swollentiki, on 12/18/2007, -6/+2This doesn't violate anti-trust laws. The man can easily go to another store to purchase ink. He also has the choice of buying a non HP printer that has cheaper ink.
      • s1mph0ny, on 12/19/2007, -0/+3But he has limited choices in buying ink for his HP branded printer. This will result in higher costs for all consumers, due to the higher total cost of HP products, any other printing product may be more expensive.

        Any time somebody is paying someone else NOT to sell something, there's an anti-trust law being broken.
        • Ryosen, on 12/19/2007, -2/+1Care ti cite the law, Counselor? Because you happen to be dead wrong.
          • s1mph0ny, on 12/19/2007, -0/+2It's not a specific law, but a piece of business logic. Paying to keep another party from entering a business deal with a company that you do business with only makes financial sense when that other party is in competition with your own party. If you can't find an anti-trust law being broken in a particular instance, it's just because you haven't found the relationship between the three (or more) parties.

            In this case, the relationships are trivial to discover. HP may claim that their intellectual property is being infringed (by third party cartridge makers) as a front to the truth; but that would not keep their actions from being anti-consumer, and cannot keep them from being held to anti-trust laws.
          • Drizzit, on 12/19/2007, -0/+1You did not cite the law either? So you are either full of ***** or the other guy is.
    • roosterjm2k2, on 12/18/2007, -8/+2Then you're not very bright.

      There is a big reason for this. You know how much $$ the fake ink costs the manufacturers? Not in lost sales...thats an imaginary number that means nothing. In support. That ink is usually crap and gunks up the print head...and then people send the printer in for repair... most print co's have disclaimers that 3rd party ink voids the warranty, but in the name of cust service, they usually repair it anyways...and pack a friendly note saying not to use 3rd party ink anymore. Printer ink may be a little expensive, but its relatively high quality as well...not to mention its an offset to the price of the printers....most printers are sold under cost, and rely on the ink sales...much the way the game consoles (barring the wii) seem to approach it...
      • Wavemancali, on 12/19/2007, -0/+23rd party inks do indeed muck up the print heads. I worked for Epson in the past and I've seen it happen time and again.
        Although I no longer work for them I am still a huge fan of their products.
        That being said though, it is highway robbery what they charge for the ink cartridges. Although they do spend money on R&D developing the inks, nothing can justify $8000 a gallon in ink prices. Nothing at all.
        It is literally cheaper to buy a new printer every time you run out of a single color ink on one of their multicolor printers. Specifically the C66. The printer cost $69 dollars when I bought it for one of our office workstations and I found that a complete set of ink cartridges was close to $100.
      • SpeedyG, on 12/19/2007, -0/+2To nitpick, it's not nearly as big a deal for printers where the print heads are on the cartridges themselves. If it clogs, just go to a new cartridge. My experience is that a lot of the multi-cartridge ones have a tray with print heads built in, and those are ones you have to watch out for... if it clogs, you're screwed.
      • s1mph0ny, on 12/19/2007, -0/+1If the printer manufacturers cared at all about their support costs they wouldn't sell printers with so many flaws. Selling junk printers while only supporting expensive cartridges is an attempt to use the ignorance of buyers against them.

        As to the quality of "Genuine" inks: any ink will form clots if it has not been used in a period of time. A printer company would do better to provide quality ink to the heads by including a stabilization element (if possible), or an ink filtering system if not. The lack of efforts likely means that the print industry would rather sell you junk several times, even if they have to deal with a little support costs for those with the spare time to waste on the phone.
    • supershawn, on 12/18/2007, -5/+2No offense, but class action equals about .18 cents for you and millions for the lawyers. Only lawyers make out in class actions. The most I ever got was a free CD.
    • eschompthis, on 12/18/2007, -3/+3goodbye staples, goodbye HP printers
    • sjbdallas, on 12/18/2007, -0/+2Hopefully they'll get to the bottom of the built in expiration HP cartridges have too. Supposedly they claim they're empty after a certain date even if they're not.
    • maelstromwar, on 12/19/2007, -0/+2I haven't owned a printer since 1998, and I'm STILL outraged!
    • OttawaMarcin, on 12/19/2007, -2/+1Do what I did -- Get a laser printer. 2000 pages of printing -- $90 cartridge.
      • obliviousfool, on 12/20/2007, -0/+1I think you forgot your sarcasm tag.
  • tdamore, on 12/18/2007, -2/+203I gave up on inkjets after I paid more for my first set of ink refills than I originally paid for the printer. I purchased a Dell laser printer 3 years ago for $149 and it's still going strong after 9000 pages. For color photos, I just go to costco and pay .11 per print :-)
    • Nosferax, on 12/18/2007, -18/+5I mostly use my Epson R200 to print directly on DVD. Something you can't do with a laser printer.
      • sexybobo, on 12/18/2007, -4/+53I mostly use my Sharpie to print directly on DVD. Doesn't look as good but cost about $100 less
        • Rahodeb, on 12/18/2007, -23/+20I just blow snot on the DVD and smear it into a word. It is recyclable and costs far less than your sharpie.
          • bubbadigg, on 12/18/2007, -0/+3keeps people from stealing your DVD too !! Wonderful tip !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
        • glory, on 12/18/2007, -13/+4Rahodeb, I love your comment. Someone please digg this guy up! :-)
        • Nosferax, on 12/18/2007, -0/+5And look like ***** when you give them to your client. I convert old vhs to dvd as a sideline, people pay more when the end result look professional.
          • s1mph0ny, on 12/19/2007, -0/+2That clunk-clunk sound is really professional too. Nothing like a cheap inkjet label to mess up the disc balance.
        • MarkOfTheDead, on 12/18/2007, -0/+1I'll dig him up and all, but that was pretty gnarly.
      • Crosshare, on 12/18/2007, -1/+3Seriously, what does a lightscribe on Newegg cost these days, like 40 bucks?
        • Nosferax, on 12/18/2007, -0/+1And you can find a color lightscribe where exactly?
          • CedEx, on 12/18/2007, -0/+5Maybe you can lightscribe a colour by number logo on the DVD, and then go over it again with different coloured Sharpies...
        • computerwiz_222, on 12/18/2007, -0/+1lightscribe is SLOW too... I had to burn 50 copies of a slideshow put together for an elementary school and it took me almost a day and a half of continuously burning... Not to mention the cost on the discs being slightly higher!
          • Tenoq, on 12/19/2007, -0/+2If you're burning 50 copies perhaps a single burner in a PC isn't the right tool for the job? :p
        • EtherGnat, on 12/18/2007, -0/+1LIghtscribe discs are ridiculously expensive compared to printable discs.
          • s1mph0ny, on 12/19/2007, -0/+1They go on sale every once in a while. Either way they're less expensive than the cost of the disc and a label for it.
    • NinjaBoy, on 12/18/2007, -4/+8I just gave up printing and got a laptop. For things like maps and stuff i really need in a print copy i just use my works printer. But i think i have only printed like 5 items all year.
      • hmunkey, on 12/18/2007, -3/+3Some of us have jobs in which printing is necessary...
        • computerwiz_222, on 12/18/2007, -0/+2accountants are a perfect example
        • whodathunk, on 12/18/2007, -1/+2Then it's the employer's problem to pay for the ink/toner, isn't it?
          • withincontext, on 12/19/2007, -0/+2What if you're the small business owner?
      • computerwiz_222, on 12/18/2007, -0/+15So when you hand in your final paper, you just drop a charged laptop into the pile?
    • nightsweat, on 12/18/2007, -2/+10HP color Laserjet 1600 is only $300 when your Dell dies and you want both laser quality and color. Nice machine.
      • ittech, on 12/18/2007, -0/+3Except all the low end color lasers have outrageous cost per page... Enjoy that $99 a color cartridge that only prints for 1500-2500 pages.

        Get a BIG color laser for $1000-1500 and it will have $99 a color cartridges that last for 15-20,000 pages. Pays for itself after a couple refills of the smaller slower less quality printer.

        Or, stick with a cheap bw laser with nice 7-12k $60 toners and only use the color laser for color only. The low end colors suck for photos, and with the high cost of toner it's just as expensive as a color inkjet.

        My home setup is an old Samsung 7300ML bw laser with huge cheap toner, and a Canon i9900 wide format photo printer. They are both excellent deals on ink and great quality, but you will pay $400 per printer.

        You make it all back in short order if you do any serious printing
        • computerwiz_222, on 12/18/2007, -0/+1If you have a large laser color and it is networked, it will definetly pay for itself quickly especially in a large office... One per floor with a central print pick up room.
      • Zergo, on 12/19/2007, -0/+1Don't forget that cheap color laser's also don't support post script, which can be VERY important.
    • theutopian, on 12/18/2007, -0/+7I did the same thing years ago after I spent a ton of money on the latest and greatest HP printer. I used to print a ton of my own photos. But they NEVER dried. They would always stick to the album pages YEARS later. The pictures fade, all around look like crap. The thing was a tank with 6 cartridges, each like $30 a piece. Worst investment I ever made. I got rid of it less than a year later, bought a $40 brother laser printer off ebay, started using shutterfly and haven't looked back since.
    • AQUANETA, on 12/18/2007, -0/+4The ink can sink into the paper.
      The ink can stay at the surface.
      The ink can be sprayed at amazing speeds.
      The ink can be plotted and dropped at incredible pitches.
      I like inkjet.
      • MarkOfTheDead, on 12/18/2007, -0/+12I like laser, Toner's entire purpose in life is to be magnetically stuck to paper then burned until it's melted to the paper to become part of it. No matter how you look at it, that's pretty metal.
        • Pinhedd, on 12/18/2007, -0/+1I'm sure Nathan Explosion would totally agree
          • MarkOfTheDead, on 12/19/2007, -0/+1He needs to design copy machines, he can make them fuse blacker than the blackest black times infinity. Sounds like an all-around good slogan.
        • Roryking, on 12/19/2007, -1/+1Actually, toner IS metal.
        • slicerace, on 12/19/2007, -0/+1Uhm - toner isn't stuck using magnetism. There would need to be a magnetic field emanating from paper to bind the toner to it, and a strong one at that (toner doesn't just flake off when you shake the paper). The laser printer works by focusing the laser on the rotating image drum -- the drum is sensitive to the light incident on it, so the toner only sticks (via the electric force -- again, not magnetism (and for you ultra nerds, there are no relativistic speeds here, so stfu)) to the places where the laser doesn't hit. The drum rolls over the paper and then the paper is run through a hot "fuser", which causes the toner (read: plastic) to stick to the paper permanently.
        • DestroyFascism, on 12/19/2007, -0/+1OMFG!
      • computerwiz_222, on 12/18/2007, -0/+1I must say... when I print a picture on even my older inkjet, it almost seems like the picture is jumping out at you when compared to the same pic from walmart printing service... Considering that most people don't even have analog photo albums anymore, it is probably worth the 25 cent print at walmart for the display on the counter for 3 weeks or something like that...
      • Ryosen, on 12/19/2007, -0/+1The ink is a lie.
    • masgrada, on 12/18/2007, -0/+3That's what I did mid-college, I haven't paid for a cartridge of anything since. Still prints without stupid lines through it and I have thousands of pages left...
    • TypeEE, on 12/18/2007, -0/+2I gave up and went the lazer route. Inkjet is stupid in a lot of case.
      - If you are not a heavy user, it dries easily and requires to clean after a long time you haven't print.
      - It uses it's precious ink to clean itself.
      - Some inkjet doesn't take refills which is a rip off.
      - printing photo is even more stupid, you need to buy special paper, you need to crop your image yourself and it's not even glossy.
      • Flipswitch, on 12/19/2007, -0/+1If you're actually going to print photos for the purpose of enjoying them later then you wouldn't mind paying a little more for photo paper... and it's not like you NEED high-gloss paper to print a photo, it just won't look as professional. About needing to crop your image yourself, that's hard why? And anyway, I'd like to know the model of your printer, if you have a laserjet that crops your image for you and magically turns your paper glossy then I'm in.

        P.S. learn to conjugate.
    • frieddonuts, on 12/19/2007, -0/+2http://youtube.com/watch?v=TBtpyeLxVkI
    • Tenoq, on 12/19/2007, -0/+1Colour lasers are no good for photos anyway. They're not a viable alternative for the average home user who wants to print photos at home. A dye-sub printer and a monochrome laser are a good option though.
  • DeviateSeptum, on 12/18/2007, -39/+21Print is dead.
    • fkr3, on 12/18/2007, -7/+17Because you personally don't need a printer for anything, you just use Google right? Idiot.
    • jumblies, on 12/18/2007, -5/+8Thanks Egon.
      • DeviateSeptum, on 12/18/2007, -0/+4I never thought I'd see the day when a Ghostbuster reference gets dugg down.
    • MrTito, on 12/18/2007, -0/+38Crap. I work in printing. I'll tell the guys around the shop and we'll go ahead and close down the company. Thanks for the heads up.
      • tgc1, on 12/18/2007, -2/+3Thanks for having a sense of humor. That made me laugh.
    • ManInTheBunker, on 12/18/2007, -1/+3Thanks, David Carson.
    • Skooma714, on 12/19/2007, -1/+2Print is dead. Miss him... Miss him....
    • solid12345, on 12/19/2007, -1/+1love the ghostbusters reference, but really alot of us designers get peeved at that type of stuff especially if it comes from web designers.
  • TehSwat, on 12/18/2007, -4/+124And we thought gas was expensive.
    • blackmage439, on 12/18/2007, -4/+10Evian (see NAIVE) water is waaaay more expensive per gallon than gasoline.
      • JustinHorne, on 12/18/2007, -0/+5I wonder where that water comes from that might give it a name like that?
        • Rahodeb, on 12/18/2007, -1/+8the crystal springs of my toilet. Minerals added for taste of course.
          • CedEx, on 12/18/2007, -0/+3No wonder it tastes like *****...
          • jake6730, on 12/19/2007, -0/+1I thought I'd add another witty comment, but I can't think of one.
    • noahhoward, on 12/18/2007, -0/+15Reminds me of an office email attachment that listed some common liquids we consume and their price per gallon compared to the price of gas. Fortunately I've never needed to buy a gallon of Pepto Bismol ($63.84) or Tylenol ($111.84). But $8k? Jebus.
      • NinjaBoy, on 12/18/2007, -0/+4I used to work at a hospital and got 500 count of Tylenol for under $5. Man did i stock up my friends medicine cabinets.
        • tremor_tj, on 12/18/2007, -0/+12And yet, they charge us $10 a pill.
          • Elranzer, on 12/18/2007, -4/+3Tylenol costs $10 per pill? Where are you shopping? Time to buy generic.
        • jamief00, on 12/19/2007, -0/+0Is this a US Specific thing? Tylenol is paracetamol outside of the US, it can be had for £0.15 for a 16 pack here in the UK.....
      • CedEx, on 12/18/2007, -0/+0I thought Crazy Glue was like the most expensive liquid you can buy? It's like $15 per 2 gram bottle... or approximately 2ml. One gallon is 3.78L, which is about 1890 bottles. So crazy glue costs $28 350 per gallon!
        • Baffles, on 12/19/2007, -0/+0I don't know where you buy your crazy glue, but its more like $2-3 per 2 gram bottle. Assuming your 1890 bottle calculation is correct, and rounding on the expensive side, $3 * 1890 = $5670, a far cry from $28,350.
    • nicepants, on 12/18/2007, -0/+4In many places, even MILK is more per gallon than gasoline!
      • lacronicus, on 12/18/2007, -0/+3When I start using 10-20 gallons at a time of milk, then I'll be worried. Till then, gas is the bigger issue.
        • noahhoward, on 12/19/2007, -0/+2My brother goes through a gallon a day...
    • chingy1788, on 12/19/2007, -0/+1but we use lots of gas
  • blackmage439, on 12/18/2007, -22/+19I don't know about this. Sure HP's ink is pricey, but my parents have had their experience with low-cost suppliers, and hated it. They said the print quality was worse, and the printer ran out of ink faster. Anyone else have the same experience? I guess the lesson is "choose your supplier wisely..."
    • hifiDesign, on 12/18/2007, -2/+28Make no mistake, you get what you pay for, but printer ink prices have been THE largest ongoing scam in the past 20 years (not perpetrated by Enron, Freddie Mac, or the government, of course).
    • munkyxtc, on 12/18/2007, -0/+40key term here is "choose" which HP and Staples were preventing the consumer from doing.
    • arjie, on 12/18/2007, -7/+2A friend of mine got a third party toner cartridge for his Deskjet or Laserjet or whatever laser printer they have for home use and now he gets smudges all over his paper. How does that work? I thought only inkjets smudge.

      My experience with Epson has been different though. Ink is expensive but not horrible expensive, and refilled cartridges are dirt cheap though I've never tried them.
      • ferrariman60, on 12/18/2007, -2/+4How long have you had your epson? every epson I've had has been fine for about 6 months, then it's nothing but a nightmare. Crumpled paper, smears coming out of the printer- it becomes the norm on two models I've had. If yours work out better, more power to ya- but if it's a recent purchase, be prepared for trouble down the road.
      • spiralspirit, on 12/18/2007, -1/+4sounds like something inside the printer leaked onto the rollers or a surface the paper goes over. clean with rubbing alcohol and viola.
        • nicktheawesome, on 12/18/2007, -0/+3How do you clean with a viola?
      • Chewie67, on 12/18/2007, -0/+11"Ink is expensive but not horrible expensive"

        JUST THIS AFTERNOON I went to OfficeMax for ink replacements for my Epson C88. The four cartridge set was $53.

        I'd say that's expensive.
        • dyranios2, on 12/18/2007, -5/+2but not horrible expensive
        • saralk, on 12/18/2007, -4/+1But not horrible expensive
        • computerwiz_222, on 12/18/2007, -0/+1i must say that is cheap, it is 60 for the combined colors cartridge and 40 for black
      • centran, on 12/18/2007, -0/+1If it is a laserjet then most likely they just refilled the toner.
        Those less expensive to medium laserjets use a cartridge that has the toner and DRUM in one unit.
        You can only get away with using a DRUM maybe twice. My quess is the third party toner cartridge was refilled many many times. The DRUM needs to be replaced. Get it re-filled at an actually store front location and ask them if they replace the drum as well as the toner. If they only refill it then he needs to buy a brand new cartridge every other time.
      • LOCK3D, on 12/18/2007, -0/+1Could also be the fusing assembly (the thing that cooks the toner on the page) which don't tend to last very long on most modern laser printers. When they go the result is often smudging or shadowing (repeated image or text 2 or 3 times down the page depending on the circumference of the fuser)
    • ferrariman60, on 12/18/2007, -0/+4In my experience, yeah, the third party suppliers aren't as good as the manufacturer of the printer. However, Ink has got to be an incredibly high margin product that should be less expensive.
      • yaddayaddayoda, on 12/18/2007, -0/+1Indeed. If you are using a refilled inkjet cartridge, you are putting more miles on a used printhead that was never intended to be reused beyond a certain number of pages that they were engineered for. The quality suffers noticeably. Pay for quality and you get quality. Pay for reliability and you get reliability. I have not had good luck with third-party or refilled inkjet cartridges for HP nor Epson.

        The class-action thing is a little silly. No one is forcing you to use the HP brand of inkjet to begin with... but I could understand it if you felt ripped off coz you bought the HP, budgeting on the fact that you would use aftermarket refills and they suddenly were not available. But if you bought them knowing that they were proprietary, you're pretty much in the same boat as the rest of the world.

        Inkjet is not really that cheap anyhow. Want cheap? Buy a laserjet 1012. Solid, reasonably fast, and dirt cheap. Excellent print quality for B/W. Now if they would just make a reasonably priced color laserjet...
        • michrech, on 12/18/2007, -1/+1There is a reason the HP 1012 is cheap. It's utter garbage.

          Want an even *better* printer? One that won't have fuser film issues (like the HP 1012 has, where the fuser film slowly destroys itself as it slips to one side of the fuser and gets chewed up, causing all sorts of image quality problems)?

          Buy a Samsung. I have a 2251n that I've had for a couple years now. Cheap, quick, and reliable. Plus, the toner cartridges are cheaper than an equivalent HP cartridge (in page count -- I know you can't directly compare two different brand cartridges).

          *printer repair tech opinion*
        • Baffles, on 12/19/2007, -0/+0I have a Samsung CLP-600N, networked color laser printer. Normally around $600, but I got it for $150 on a slickdeal from staples about a year ago. Still running on original cartridges (black has been stating its empty for a while now, and its still going strong). Ink is pretty pricy, but gets a 4000-5000 page yield, so its not too bad.
    • GreatSunJester, on 12/18/2007, -0/+2All I ever bought for my HP 1200 was the Staples brand toner cartridges... never had one hitch with them (yah yah, I know it is not INK!). Staples stopped selling the in-house carts at the same time as the inks. The Staples brand were always about 10% to 15% cheaper than the HPs.
    • signal15, on 12/18/2007, -0/+2Just use the original cartridge and refill it when it gets low. You can buy a big bottle of ink for next to nothing, it comes with the plug for the hole you have to drill.

      Or, buy a surplus laserjet for $100. I got an HP 4500 color laserjet for $75, and 2000 pages later I'm still on the same toner.
    • PURDooM, on 12/18/2007, -0/+2Yeah, I got this cheap stuff from this one guy and I just didn't quite feel as good as I should have, its worth the extra price for the professional distributors, their stuff is quality... wait, are we talking about ink? Wrong discussion.
    • ThreeDee912, on 12/19/2007, -0/+2I bought 2 sets of off-brand ink for my Epson, both from different manufacturers. One was crap, spewing ink everywhere and blurring the prints. The other set was great, almost as good as OEM.

      Sadly, I can't simply refill the cartridge as there's a stupid chip that makes the printer refuse to print (no matter what, I already tried hacking the firmware, drivers, and other crap) when the "ink is empty". I take the cartridge out and shake it next to my ear, and I can actually hear ink still splashing around in there.

      Maybe I should get another printer...
  • dwright99, on 12/18/2007, -0/+7Still a lot of players in this field. Hell, I noticed even Walgreens refills cartridges cheap now. That won't affect the first purchase on a printer to get cartridges but from then on, the hell with them.
    • DeathMarcher, on 12/18/2007, -1/+1I had Walgreens refill an ink cartridge for me once, it bled all over the inside of my printer and ruined the print head. Granted this is just one time... your mileage may vary.
    • fuzzynyanko, on 12/18/2007, -0/+4I bought some generics off an amazon seller. It was like $30 for 10 carts, which is dirt cheap. However, the color one clogged my printer head. Oh well. If the black ink carts end up being used completely, I can use the savings to buy me a new color printer.
    • dwright99, on 12/18/2007, -1/+0A couple of years ago I had a bad experience. The last one at Cartridge World worked well but they are not all that cheap either.
    • Tenoq, on 12/19/2007, -0/+2Refills = crap. Generics = usually fine, depending on who made them and your printer. We fix all sorts of printers, and refilled carts are a leading cause of ***** printers (as are paperjams). Canon generics are generally awesome, HP so-so, Epson depends on the model. I know my Epson costs about 1/3 the price with generics, but the photo quality isn't spot on.
  • Scopitone, on 12/18/2007, -3/+257Someone needs to look into why razor cartridges are over ten ***** dollars for 4 refills. I don't think they're made out of flying saucer parts.
    • ncc74656m, on 12/18/2007, -3/+49Mach 3 blades cost 2 Elerium 115 and 1 Alien Alloys, actually. How many engineers would you like to assign?
      • Metal_Hurlant, on 12/18/2007, -0/+9I miss that game.
        • Stradenko, on 12/18/2007, -0/+6UFO - Enemy Unknown, and X-Com: Apocalypse are abandonware, available for download at abandonia.com and playable on those platforms supported by dosbox. No Terror from the Deep, 'though.
          Stop missing.
      • goldfenix, on 12/19/2007, -1/+3Good god man, we're wasting Elerium 115 on those? Do you know how rare that stuff is?
    • utdrew182, on 12/18/2007, -1/+25It's called the razor blade model
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tying_(commerce)
    • Aslander, on 12/18/2007, -1/+5Also known as a Loss Leader. Welcome to Marketing 101!
    • spamly, on 12/18/2007, -1/+2Check out greatrazors.com. They deep freeze all the popular brands and they last for months.
      http://www.greatrazors.com
      • Crosshare, on 12/18/2007, -0/+3I think we want a better business model, not something that's been locked up next to Ted Williams.
      • obliviousfool, on 12/20/2007, -0/+1If you want your razors to last longer, dry them well and coat them with a bit of petroleum jelly.

        No rust = longer lasting blades.
    • dizam, on 12/18/2007, -0/+4Gillette has huge expenses: paying Beckham to shave his head, superbowl adds, the stadium, CEO bonus, etc. etc.
    • MrPotato, on 12/18/2007, -0/+2I heard somewhere, maybe here on digg, that if you dry the blades completely they'll last longer. Matter of fact, I believe that someone is making a special dryer that is supposed to prolong the life of the blades.
      • anononon, on 12/18/2007, -0/+2If you don't let your wife/gf shave her legs with it, they'll last forever.
    • Optic7, on 12/18/2007, -0/+4You only pay that if you want to. My razors cost me a little over $5 for 15 (and they're double sided so equivalent to 30 refills) at the local drug store. That comes out to about 6 cents per "refill". All I needed in order to do this was a new traditional style double-edge safety razor http://www.classicshaving.com/catalog/item/522941/ ... that cost about $30. You can also find them elsewhere but that's where I got mine.They use the original Gillete type razors that are out of patent and are made by various companies now and available anywhere around the world. The whole thing works great so I don't see myself ever going back. There is no plastic anywhere on the razor or the refills, just steel, so it's much better for the environment too. In fact a single blade is even supposed to be better than the 3/4/5 blades in some respects, like less clogging, and less ingrown hairs. In other words you're paying an outrageous amount of money for few or no advantages.
      • nathron, on 12/19/2007, -0/+1it actually comes out to ~$0.17 per refill..
    • retral, on 12/18/2007, -0/+1I use a gillette fusion... yes, the refills are somewhat pricey, but you can't beat the convenience of a single blade that gets into the tight spaces, plus.. they seem to last FOREVER for me.
    • Mtown, on 12/19/2007, -0/+2It only takes a minute to rejuvenate my razor with my Razor Gator... RAAAAZOR GAAATOR!!
    • justinjstark, on 12/19/2007, -0/+1The answer is a double edge safety razor. They give a better shave and blades are 50 cents or less.
    • BengalTigger, on 06/19/2008, -0/+1They sell razors at ridiculous prices because, for some reason, people just keep buying them.
  • codyman, on 12/18/2007, -1/+11this is why I digg my b&w laser printer in which I get refill kits for about ~$5 off eBay that last thousands of pages.. and then in terms of color, pay costco 17 cents a picture for quality prints that would probably cost over a buck if I were to print them myself...
    • TypeEE, on 12/18/2007, -0/+1I did the same thing. The cartridge that came w/ the printer ran out quickly. Then I bought refill from ebay and I am on the same cartridge for 4 years already. I hate refilling, recharging and any maintenance. Minimal maintenance is priceless
  • EdgarVerona, on 12/18/2007, -0/+18Heh, I was wondering about that!

    Strangely enough, I went to Staples just yesterday to get ink for my wife's HP printer... and I saw that every other brand had 3rd party ink available... and Staple's prices for HP ink was outrageous.

    I walked out the door and over to Best Buy. I didn't find generic ink there either, but the price was about 25% cheaper anyways so I grabbed it.

    These guys are making money hand over fist... and I thought that coke was bad (5 cents to make a 20 oz. bottle vs. $1.50 retail at stores). I would think that ink wouldn't be THAT much more expensive to make ink such that it would be a comparable percentage of $X to make vs. $8,000 retail.
    • Ohimesama, on 12/18/2007, -1/+3um, well I work at Staples, and though I agree that the ink is way expensive, there is no way you could beat the price of Staples ink. Staples does price matching, often taking an additional 10% off the sale price of competitors...
      (it's a part time job while I'm at University. Don't judge me....)
      • amoirae, on 12/18/2007, -0/+1meritline.com and supermediastore.com put Staples in the shade.
      • Bamborzled, on 12/19/2007, -0/+1Every major retail outlet does price matching, but you have to bring in the competitor's flyer or a printed page, and it's annoying.
    • michrech, on 12/18/2007, -1/+2You can't compare Coke cost to ink costs. The Coke bottles are much heavier than an ink cartridge, must be trucked around to each individual store (of which there are MANY more than places you can find ink cartridges), and you must pay the driver to unload them.

      Sure, the manufacturing of both are highly automated, but the transportation/delivery of any bottled beverage product will be MUCH more costly.

      Plus, look at what you are getting. 20oz of Coke (from your example) for a buck fifty. How much did that 20oz of ink cost you again?
      • nicepants, on 12/18/2007, -0/+3Even fine wine isn't (usually) nearly as expensive as that ink.
    • coleki, on 12/19/2007, -0/+4thank you. no one ever considers anything other the cost of the actual syrup when trying to figure a profit margin on soda.

      what about:
      -paying employees (the biggest expense in almost any company)
      -marketing
      -R&D (though there may not be much)
      -distribution
      -legal

      with all of those things and more, can you see how they might need to make more than $0.10 on a $0.05 bottle of Coke?
  • funkyjunk3, on 12/18/2007, -0/+7I have gone to a Walgreens which carries an ink cartridge refilling station. Using an old HP inkjet cartridge I've gotten excellent millage out of using the service. The price is decent, and I'm on my second refill and the color is good.
    • tanner4105, on 12/18/2007, -0/+4i work at walgreens in the photo lab and we get a dollar everytime someone does an inkjet refill, so thank you!
    • TypeEE, on 12/18/2007, -2/+1Don't you feel it's troublesome?
      • funkyjunk3, on 12/20/2007, -0/+1I do not actually. Its less than $20 for a refill, and it's close by.
  • krnldmp, on 12/18/2007, -0/+49The manufacturers (all of them) basically GIVE unsuspecting consumers all but the top model printers and make the profit on the ink cartridges. Been that way for a long time.
    • brstilson, on 12/18/2007, -0/+10Yep, it's the Gillette business model. Buy a Mach 3 razor for $7, and 4 refill blades cost $8 to $10
      • RedNeckerson, on 12/18/2007, -2/+2I got a Mach 3 bundled with my Sunday paper. I'll use it for a few days then toss it in the trash.
    • insanebrain, on 12/18/2007, -2/+2yeah. . make them hooked so them come back. . remind you of something ??
  • shockingbird, on 12/18/2007, -0/+20It'd also be different if the ink was worth a fook and didn't fade as soon as it was in just a bit of sunlight.
    • LeeSoong, on 12/18/2007, -0/+2dugg for the truth - and the creative use of 'fook'.
  • JasonCox, on 12/18/2007, -21/+131) If you dont like how Staples is conducting themselves, take your business elsewhere
    2) Staples has the right to stock their store as they choose, it's not Wal-Mart, Best Buy, Circuit City, Office Max, Office Depot, etc dont sell ink

    Dont get me wrong, the price of ink is outrageous, but so is this lawsuit.
    • csm888, on 12/18/2007, -5/+26I pay a store to stop stocking my competitors goods... this isnt a free market, its anti trust, and for the sake of the consumer it needs to be stopped. The free market isnt really as free as people would like because people are greedy bastards and laws are needed to stop them.
      • swollentiki, on 12/18/2007, -0/+1Then tell me how it's a free market if the government tells stores what they can and cannot sell? You as a consumer have a CHOICE of what store to shop at and what brands you buy. If you don't like what Staples sell, then don't go to that store and they will suffer. This agreement doesn't violate any antitrust laws.
        • lacronicus, on 12/18/2007, -1/+1A completely free market is not what we have, nor is it what we want. There does need to be some amount of control, some amount of balance. Were it not for the government, the free market in its pure form would destroy itself.
    • Rha7dotCom, on 12/18/2007, -2/+7Could you please reason the lawsuit again? It's not the right of Staples to stock their stores as they see fit. It is the fact that HP is acting as the bad guy by actively inducing Staples to sell ONLY their ink. Those are monopoly practices. The brain came with the package. Use it.
      • swollentiki, on 12/18/2007, -0/+2You're wrong. HP is only doing this deal with Staples. If they forced Staples then that's different. If HP did this with other stores that's different. This is a MUTUAL agreement between two businesses and does not impede consumers in any way as the consumer still has the ability to go to other stores (i.e. Wal-Mart, Best Buy, OfficeMax, etc.) and purchase the off brand ink. The consumer also has the freedom to purchase a different brand printer. The guy filing the lawsuit doesn't have a leg to stand on, maybe the lawsuit would have some backing if it were an off brand ink manufacturer that could show they are being adversely affected by HP and Staples. This man is not because he still has CHOICES.
        BTW, I'm not defending HP or Staples I'm defending MY FREEDOMS OF CHOICE and the FREE MARKET!!!!!
    • swollentiki, on 12/18/2007, -3/+4Once again, logic and a non-liberal point of view gets your comments buried.
      • Wonderama, on 12/18/2007, -1/+1It's more than knee-jerk liberalism getting you dugg down (which happens a lot here.) It's ignorance of free market capitalist economics and a tendency toward economic socialism. In their opinion, regulation of everyone else is good (especially big evil corporations), but when it comes to themselves regulation is obviously bad. That's because they think of themselves as better than the rest; a typical socialist attitude.
    • catisonh, on 12/18/2007, -2/+1Yes, instead of a lawsuit, here's an idea: DON'T GO TO STAPLES...
    • zspeed78, on 12/18/2007, -0/+2So incentives to sell a certain product are illegal? I think about 95% of businesses are screwed then..
  • DemsFTW, on 12/18/2007, -0/+10I like the fact that CVS is doing refills for a lot of cartridges for cheap. Very cool.
  • yogurtslinger, on 12/18/2007, -2/+35Ink prices are ***** outrageous. That's why I only use printers that have seperate tanks for each color and get my ink directly from an ebay seller for $1.60 per cartridge.

    Sadly enough, it's getting pretty tough to find a printer like that anymore. It seems that they are all making them with the tri-color catridges which I will never buy.
    • tedjar, on 12/18/2007, -0/+8Cannon uses separate cartridges, I have the ip4300, its around $99 and it is a great printer....
      • yogurtslinger, on 12/18/2007, -0/+4Right on bro, i've got a Canon IP3000
    • EdgarVerona, on 12/18/2007, -0/+2Hmm, at that cheap of a price per cartridge, it'd definitely be a deal. How's the print quality on those? My wife is the only one who uses the printer, and she uses it to print her graphic design-related work. We've been stuck with an HP for years that's a good quality printer but has unacceptably expensive ink.
    • michrech, on 12/18/2007, -0/+0One thing you can do is look for "continuous ink printer" in google. There are several printer models (and vendors selling kits) that can be converted to use ink "bladders" (or other such kits). It can be difficult to do on some printers, but if you print a *lot*, it may just be worth doing.
    • perot9296, on 12/18/2007, -0/+1I did that for a old canon printer I had and eventually the $1 ebay ink screwed it up. But it was no big loss it was a cheap printer. Its sad when for the price of 3 ink refills you can buy a whole new printer.
    • ScottDaMan, on 12/18/2007, -1/+1Business Inkjets from HP are awesome for refilling. Just FYI. :)
    • tgc1, on 12/18/2007, -0/+4Let me tell you a quick story. I have on my shelf a 400 dollar business level printer from a company that starts with an H and ends with a P. It shall effectively remain nameless however. I had purchased a brand new black ink cartridge and went to print. The printer refused. So I called the customer service line, and they told me that I needed to have a color cartridge in there or it wouldn't print. I told them I was only printing black and white, and so color would be a waste of money. The guy admitted to me that the color cartridge is used to lay down a yellow base first, and then prints black over top. Interesting, I said to the man as I hung up.

      So effectively, he let me know why my color cartidge was always running out of yellow ink first. These ***** companies need to be held accountable for what otherwise amounts to producing defective by design products. They have a nice racket going on, and they need to be stopped. Oh, and by the way, that printer still sits on the shelf. With its new 40 dollar black ink cartridge, waiting to be used but can't 'cause I REFUSED to buy the color cartridge to print in BLACK AND WHITE. Dammit.
  • Bridea, on 12/18/2007, -2/+102Ink DRM. That's crazy stupid.
    • MrPig, on 12/18/2007, -1/+6* DRM. That's crazy stupid.
    • tgc1, on 12/18/2007, -0/+1Nope... to me it's extortion.
    • boxybrzown, on 12/18/2007, -0/+1Unless you're the one selling the ink. Then it's crazy smart.
    • DestroyFascism, on 12/19/2007, -0/+1Im going to DRM Corn and Cats and Dogs and Cotton and then Water, that's riiight, waaater~~~!!!!!
  • tedjar, on 12/18/2007, -3/+6Staples brand ink carts sucked anyway, They lated about half as long and a color one blew up and made a giant mess in my 6127. Why do you think that staples gives you $3 for them... they are taking something that was designed for one use (remember its not just a tank, its also the printhead) and refilling it. I'm sticking with Cannon printers.....They have replaceable printheads and seperate cartridges. Its like $12 for the black.... and the quality of the whole unit is top notch. Hp printers used to be good, now they're almost as bad as Lexmark.
    • Leopards, on 12/18/2007, -0/+1You will find out that the Canon Print head costs as much as a new printer!!
    • thugok, on 12/18/2007, -0/+1And the ***** up part there is that Lexmark makes decent printers now.
  • phantom_mullet, on 12/18/2007, -0/+8Epson and Canon third party cartridges are around $2 a pop, and they work well since the printhead is on the printer rather than on the cartridge (which accounts for the crappier quality of third party/remanufactured cartridges). I am a college student with an Epson printer-scanner-copier (which I bought for $60 as a display model) and have gone three years on about $20 of (mostly black) third party ink (bought from eBay and a site called Megatoners). I use the hell out of that printer, too.

    The only caveat with those printers (with the printhead built in) is that they can clog if left sitting for too long, so I'd mainly recommend an Epson/Canon to someone who prints regularly. I haven't had this problem with mine, though.
    • ShazerFox, on 12/18/2007, -0/+0The head on my Canon i9100 clogged when I left it sitting over a summer. I ordered a new head through a print shop and they recommended running the nozzle test (which uses all 6 inks instead of the 4 used when printing under Plain Paper settings) about once a week to keep it cleaned out.
      I've used the cheap inks almost exclusively in my printers, and haven't had much problem beside the occasional one that's leaky. Generally, I've found that 3rd party cartridges costing around $5 work really well.
  • h3smith, on 12/18/2007, -13/+7Who cares? They wanted an exclusive deal and they paid for it. There are plenty of other places to buy ink. No one forces you with a gun to shop at staples and buy overpriced HP ink.
    • spiralspirit, on 12/18/2007, -3/+10Still, there are laws against such practices for a reason. If every retailer did it, you'd pretty much have nowhere else to go.
      • Bridea, on 12/18/2007, -4/+5What law says that a business establishment cannot set up an exclusive relationship with another business?
        • jonshipman, on 12/18/2007, -4/+9Anit-Trust laws.
        • superspud, on 12/18/2007, -4/+4Antitrust laws?
        • swollentiki, on 12/18/2007, -2/+2This is not an Antitrust situation. Businesses form exclusive partnerships all the time. Antitrust laws are when a business or group of businesses do something to make it difficult for competition (meaning it affects the free market). It's hard to make a case because you can still easily obtain off brand ink at other stores and there are still other printer brands. No one forces you to buy an HP printer and no one forces you to purchase your ink at Staples.
      • swollentiki, on 12/18/2007, -0/+1If HP offered that deal with every retailer then there might be an antitrust case. This is not the case. HP chose Staples to be their exclusive partner and Staples found this partnership to be a valuable asset.
      • jerrygofixit, on 12/19/2007, -0/+1Right, what about how restaurants only serve Pepsi or Coke and not both? Enlighten me.
  • JigoroKano, on 12/18/2007, -11/+7This lawsuit is encroaching liberties.
    The free market will sort this out.
    • MrPig, on 12/18/2007, -4/+2You're an idiot.

      If for some reason they wanted to regulate the "printer ink industry" then maybe... however this is simply removing "regulations" between to companies (that they happened to place apon themselves).
    • hierophantus, on 12/18/2007, -2/+6I hope you were being sarcastic. The whole point of antitrust law is that anti-competitive behavior *interferes with* the free market.
      • JigoroKano, on 12/19/2007, -0/+1How is a market FREE if companies aren't free to make mutually beneficial deals and screw over consumers?
    • jleclerc, on 12/18/2007, -1/+3The underlying idea that I think JigoroKano was expressing was that a free market does not even require antitrust laws to sort out supply/demand/pricing issues. In other words, if HP overcharges for its cartridges, consumers will naturally buy other printers, without the need for any interfering antitrust laws. It's libertarianism, Ron Paul style!
      • Bamborzled, on 12/19/2007, -0/+1Unfortunately, consumers don't know any better. Libertopianism only works when everyone is smart, you see.
  • danielson0014, on 12/18/2007, -2/+10I found out the hard way about this scam not long ago. I found a cannon printer/ scanner that can print and scan at photo quality for
    $50!! Great printer, works great, really fast, good quaility, couldn't be happier. Until I saw how much ink cost $95 before taxes!! Why should ink cost twice the price of the printer!! I'm gald someone is doing something about it finally.
  • brstilson, on 12/18/2007, -10/+3When you buy in small quantities, you pay more. That's a fact. When you buy things like bottled water, ink, or perfume, you aren't paying for the contents, you're paying for the container. It costs a lot more to fill a thousand 2 oz bottles than it does to fill one 2,000 oz bottle. In the case of an ink cartridge, you're not only paying for the ink, but also the print head (in HP, Lexmark, and Dells anyway), cartridge, and that little circuit board, plus the machine cycle it takes to fill that cartridge with ink.
    I buy spring water for a water cooler I have at home. Since I re-use three 5 gallon containers, I pay less than 30 cents a gallon.
    I wish people would quit bitching about how expensive per gallon water is. It's only that expensive when you buy a gallon of water in individual 20 oz bottles.
    • thephosphorbox, on 12/18/2007, -0/+6Yeah well if I had the option to buy BIGGER ink carts for a lower price, I would do so. Unfortunately the manufacturers of the printers determine how big the carts are and how much they will cost me.
      Such is why I gave up on inkjet printers altogether. Do I really need color? Nope. If I want to print a photo, I'll go to Walgreens and pay a dime for it.
    • Theycallmetak, on 12/19/2007, -0/+2Don't be an ass.

      $8000 / Gal =
      $2.11 / ml

      Good ink in bulk $701.15 / Gal =
      $0.19 / ml

      15ml Cart
      $2.70 ink and $28.95 "print head, cart, little circuit board and (ha ha ha) machine cycle"

      30ml cart
      $5.40 ink and $57.90 "print head, cart, little circuit board and (ha ha ha) machine cycle"

      This is full retail price for bulk ink by the liter and although the price rises slightly for cartriges, it's nowhere near the cost of the OEM carts. This is most likely better ink as well.
  • danieldantastic, on 12/18/2007, -2/+5HP printers suck anyway. Ask any designer and they'll swear by Epson. Just get one that has individual cartridges for each color, then when you run out of light cyan you only replace light cyan instead of all 5 colors.
    • LeeSoong, on 12/18/2007, -0/+4Baa, What ever happened to tradition!

      Papyrus, squid ink, and the jawbone of an Ass!

      • amoirae, on 12/18/2007, -3/+3Bush jawbones are running on short supply...
        • lightningrod220, on 12/18/2007, -2/+2Keep your politics out of my tech news. Thanks.
    • jonshipman, on 12/18/2007, -1/+1ummm, epson's are crap
    • tnoy, on 12/18/2007, -1/+1I've used several different brands over the years.. probably close to 7 or 8 different printers. Only two of them were trash--both Epson. The others were a mixture of HP inkjets, and HP laser, and a Brother laser

      One of the Epsons was one of their multifunction printers. It was a piece of trash that never worked right. After having it replaced twice, I gave up and got an HP multifunction printer and it has since worked flawlessly.

      The only reason I've replaced any of my HP inkjets was to get better photo quality prints and faster print speed. HP is the only printer brand that has given me zero issues.
    • trelixus, on 12/18/2007, -0/+1Wow, I wasn't even aware there was 5 colors to begin with!
    • mrmacky, on 12/18/2007, -0/+2Epson's suck. My printer is old but if Epson still has seperate print heads that clog every month and use most of the ink just to clean the darn thing. They aren't worth the box they come in. (Actually, that box was pretty fancy...)
    • ThreeDee912, on 12/19/2007, -0/+2I have a R200 that has separate cartridges. Every freaking time I place a new one in, it does a automatic cleaning cycle, which wastes ink from the other cartridges. When I print another few pages, another cleaning cycle! I barely print a few pages out, and most of the ink is used up in the cleaning cycles!
  • icutcheese, on 12/18/2007, -0/+24Hey, does anyone know where I can get ink for, I dunno....$4,000.00 per gallon? 50% off people!
  • hornsworth, on 12/18/2007, -0/+5Apparently the price of ink "subsidizes" the price of the actual printer. So it's a broken market, much like that of many nations. ;) I wonder how much those complex printers would cost otherwise?
    • waz67, on 12/18/2007, -1/+5Except a lot of those "complex" printers aren't all that complex. Looking inside the Canon on my desk, it's basically a bunch of plastic parts, a rubber belt, a couple of metal rods and minimal circuitry. All the smarts are in the drivers. The printer companies love you to believe that they're losing money hand over fist on the printers and have to make it up with high ink prices, but I'm not buying it.
      • lacronicus, on 12/18/2007, -0/+4If it's so easy, why not just make one? All a violin is is a bit of wood and 4 strings, but those are expensive as hell, same as a guitar. All speakers are is some magnets and plastic. Why are they so expensive? Cause the average person can't do it themselves. It has nothing to do with the cost of the parts, but the cost to actually build it.
      • tgc1, on 12/18/2007, -3/+1I'd argue that it is within the reach of most people, who are technically inclined, to build themselves a printer. The problem is that most people are too lazy and claim they do not "have the time" to build much of anything these days. Not so long ago people were more inclined to build more than people do now, which is nothing. I don't know of a single person who still makes their own things. Like tables, chairs, furniture, and so on. Effectively, the populous has become a herd of sheep. They just flock to the stores to get fed when they need to. Just like sheep.

        Some might take offense to the term sheep, but what the hell else do you call a living thing that is so easily controlled and manipulated, and is entirely dependent on other people for its survival? I mean there's not much difference from a farm animal really.
  • DeFex, on 12/18/2007, -8/+4damn thats stupid. class action lawsuit, you might get $5. lawyers get millions.
    first of all stop giving money to lawyers.
    second of all shop somewhere else that has what you want.
    • hierophantus, on 12/18/2007, -0/+4So, basically all class action suits are stupid. I'll take note of that when I decide whether to start a company that rips people off in increments too small to make individual lawsuits feasible.
  • mikedoth, on 12/18/2007, -0/+8This is exactly why I switched to laser. Best 300 I ever spent. Never dries up, and prints thousands of pages per cart.
    • Frezzle, on 12/18/2007, -0/+2damn right i love my 2600n!
    • tgc1, on 12/18/2007, -0/+1I'm still on the sidelines about getting a laser color printer. I want one badly, but it pisses me off that it come with starter cartidges and that as soon as I pay 400 for the printer, i'll have to pay close to 500 to get new toner cartridges. Each one is about 100 dollars, and that's 4 separate cartridges. With tax i'm looking at close to 500 for refills. And something about that just bothers me.
  • anewname, on 12/18/2007, -0/+4Continuous Ink Supply System. No needles. Just pour and go. I'm getting one when my original ink runs out.
    • tnoy, on 12/18/2007, -0/+1Are there systems that dont require you to have the bottles sitting next to the printer?
    • tgc1, on 12/18/2007, -0/+1It would be so easy to make a visually competent printer that had that continous in supply system in place. I mean the only real difference is that it has hoses connected to the printer instead of cartidges, and uses bottles of ink instead. But talk to the current printer manufacturers and they'd laugh right in your face about it. Last I checked, there was a printer I was looking at buying (deskjet) and the cartridges it uses are 5ml -- yeah, five milliliters. Not to mention they cost about 20 dollars a piece. If that isn't the biggest rip off in history, I don't know what is.
  • Doznufus, on 12/18/2007, -1/+14They also anal bang you by changing the ink catridge types, so that when you have to replace your printer, you can't use the leftover ink from the broken printer and have to throw them away.
  • my10cent, on 12/18/2007, -1/+2oh this is so true, I usually print for 1+2 months after my printer starts telling me I am low on ink, thats my HP printer and it is indeed a lying ink thief, I stopped buying HP ink a long time ago, I go to ink4ever.com and I save A LOT, it is still not enough though, it is pathetic why ink for printers should cost more than ink for pens, there is absolutely NO reason for this other than greedy bastards in the other end.
  • wherl78, on 12/18/2007, -1/+12Just paid $135.96 to refill my ink. Merry Christmas.
  • slowbox, on 12/18/2007, -0/+6Wife and I went to Best Buy to buy the cheapest printer they sold... literally would be happy with simple B/W. I told the guy working this. He showed me the cheapest printer on sale (all were color). Then he told me its cheaper to throw away the printer and buy another than buy a set of refill cartridges. I just cant buy into this scam... left the store. Wish i still had my dot matrix!
    • anewname, on 12/18/2007, -0/+1Buy a laser. They're under $100 now.
      • tgc1, on 12/18/2007, -0/+0Yes, I agree. But don't forget that the toner cartridges are starter ones, and do not last nearly as long as the replacements. And, well, the replacements are just about as much if not more than the printer itself. Somehow I just don't see why that can be justified. It's plastic dust in a plastic container with a roller on it for ***** sakes.
    • LeeSoong, on 12/18/2007, -0/+3Your Wish has been granted:

      http://compudirect.net/matrix-printers-c-7.html

      Okidata printers - 9 pin high speed & 24 pin for letter quality...

      Great printers that print a lot of pages using good old fashioned ribbon.
    • thephosphorbox, on 12/18/2007, -0/+2I bought a Samsung laser a year ago for $89 bucks. B&W, no frills. Works like a charm, and the cartridge is still going strong.
    • lacronicus, on 12/18/2007, -0/+1Certainly, that would be cheaper, he's right, but they don't sell printers full of ink, they may be less than half full. So while he's not really lying about that, it's certainly not the best way to go.
    • molecool, on 12/19/2007, -0/+2Thank you for not polluting our planet. This is ridiculous - it might make fiscal sense, but it's unsustainable. Buying a complete printer instead of replacing a few tiny ink cartridges. We're running out of oil in the coming decade - all that plastic we throw away now will be desperately needed at a point when plastic production will be extremely expensive.
  • MarkusGarvey, on 12/18/2007, -1/+8$50.00 per oz!....for INK!?
  • JRHodes88, on 12/18/2007, -1/+6$8,000 a gallon?!? Jesus Christ.
    If this news is true I almost guarantee the first place they will attack is stores like Walgreen's and Ink-filling stores for refilling their cartridges for almost 80% off the retail of a new one.
  • rowlodge, on 12/18/2007, -1/+5like something the "MAFIA", would do.
    • molecool, on 12/19/2007, -0/+4Nope, even those guys would rather give you a break - no pun intended. Corporate America is a lot worse than those guys. The cosa nostra might break your legs but they won't ***** you out of your retirement.
  • cjules13, on 12/18/2007, -0/+5walgreens refilss all the way
  • Weather, on 12/18/2007, -0/+12Forget inkjets. Get a cheap full duplex laser printer. Not only will you not be purchasing overpriced ink, you'll be spending half of what you used to on paper.
    Win/win
    • andycr512, on 12/19/2007, -0/+2The paper I print out normally ends up scattered somewhere after I'm done reading it, so I sometimes collect all I can find, line them up, and put them back in the printer upside-down.

      Poor man's duplexing. :)
  • dsimonpower, on 12/18/2007, -0/+1For those in the UK, www.cartridgesave.co.uk has cheap ink cartridges for many printers and in my experience i never noticed any quality change from the ones that came with the printer (though i admit i never compared).
  • flair1, on 12/18/2007, -0/+5get a cheap black and white laser and your wallet will thank you
    • proliance, on 12/18/2007, -1/+2Maybe I'm being picky since I work on these for a living, but when does your laser printer with a black toner cart print white?

      Its called monochrome.
  • ryan83189, on 12/18/2007, -0/+9I found a laser printer in the trash. I have made over 400 pages of print/copies and it shows no sign of running out of toner. Sure it blows the circuit breaker sometimes but hey, im not buying proprietary cartridges.
    • nicepants, on 12/18/2007, -0/+3I've seen old Lexmark printers in the garbage of schools, etc before with nothing wrong with them (except the manufacture date). Those things are workhorses and will outlast any inkjet I've ever seen.
  • dasunst3r, on 12/18/2007, -0/+2Even though HP has great Linux compatibility, their printers' quality has gone down to the point where I will think thrice (not just twice) before buying again. Oh, yeah... laser FTW, and photos should be printed by dye sublimation.
  • TomKarpik, on 12/18/2007, -0/+4I got fed up with the price of inkjet ink and the rate at which it was consumed and eventually found a used laser printer on craigslist. The guy selling them bought them bulk from ICBC (car insurance company here in BC), and was selling B&W Lexmarks for about $120 with toner, and color Lexmarks for $200.

    The thing is a beast, and with something like 100,000 pages of ink (average) still remaining in the massive toner cartridge it came with, those filthy f*cks at HP are never going to get another cent of my money.
  • PhoneGuy, on 12/18/2007, -11/+3No one here actually believes that they can get a high quality ink jet prinker for $50.00 do they?

    No. I didn't think so.

    HP and every other printer manufacturer subsidizes their R & D and hardware costs through their ink cartiridges. Now, in my opinon, it is their gamble that we as consumers continue to but ink cartridges from HP and not someone else.

    Is it fair that they implant chips into the printer / cartridges so that you must buy from HP?

    Provided that they make a disclaimer on the packaging of the printer: "This printer will not function without genuine HP ink cartidges." I would say that it is well within their rights.

    If you, as a consumer do not like paying $125 bucks for ink, then perhaps you should look at a different product. You would not buy a hydrogen fuel car and then complain that the hydrogen fuel was too expensive, would you?

    It is time to stop blaming manufacturers for wanting to make money. I hate to say it, but I think I side with HP on this one.

    Also, I own a Brother - All in One - printer. It prints fine for my requirements, and it costs $20 per colour for ink.
    • Wonderama, on 12/18/2007, -2/+1Well said.
      I still hate paying so much for something so ridiculously cheap to produce (i.e., without allocating R&D, overhead, etc. into the cost of the product.)
    • tgc1, on 12/18/2007, -0/+0I hope phone guy gets buried to hell.
    • andycr512, on 12/19/2007, -0/+1That may be true, but it certainly isn't my fault if I don't fall for their trap. I would be perfectly willing to pay full price for a printer which didn't force a monopoly on the type of ink it accepted without them pulling the warranty plug on you. In the end, you pay more than the cost of the printer in ink if you use it even a little.
  • biznatch11, on 12/18/2007, -1/+9FTA: "Adding insult to injury, most printers are lying, filthy ink thieves, according to a recent study, misreporting that they are low on ink when they are not."

    Who are these people that are throwing out perfectly working ink cartridges just because their computer tells them to? I keep using the cartridge until the printouts start getting blank lines/gaps in them.
    • MrPig, on 12/18/2007, -5/+250% of Americans.

      Well, the retarded 50%.
      • thephosphorbox, on 12/18/2007, -1/+1I think that number is a bit higher than 50%... the retarded number, that is.
    • redmaxx, on 12/18/2007, -1/+1Apparently you haven't encountered a printer that starts throwing away jobs half-way through when it thinks it is out of ink.

      HP OfficeJet Pro L7650. I still have not found an all-in-one that does:

      - Network scanning
      - Usual print, copy, fax
      - ADF
      - Two-sided module
      - Individual tanks that are as cheap as Canon's (HP 88 XL), cheaper even when you get the non-XL with coupons from OfficeMax and Staples.

      All for $250 on sale at Costco. When the thing eventually starts eating pages (through the printer or ADF) or scanning improperly (those have been the two most common failures I've seen in consumer HP printers), it goes back to Costco.

      Do you have a cheaper solution? I'll live with throwing out the cartridge when it starts eating jobs. Saves on the printhead (which is separately replaceable in this printer), which can be burned out if the tank runs dry.
      • biznatch11, on 12/19/2007, -0/+1No, I've never encountered a printer that stops printing when it thinks it's out of ink. I had no idea any printer did that. Can't you just tell it the cartridge is new? On my older Lexmark whenever I take out a cartridge then put it back in (or put a new one in) it asks if the cartridge is new or old, so I could just tell the printer it was a new cartridge. But I guess that's not an option on all printers?
    • Telos06, on 12/18/2007, -0/+6Even worse, how about the Epson CX7800 all in one that won't even let you perform a scan if it thinks its out of black ink (even when the cartridge has plenty of ink sloshing around inside it).
    • Al3x, on 12/18/2007, -0/+3Printers have built in page-counts...so at some specific number of prints, some printers stop printing and claim to be out of ink.
  • bobbyschultz, on 12/18/2007, -3/+0I have an HP all-in-one, and with the recycling discount my new cartrages are under $5

    but i understand that this is not typical; just throwing it out there
  • illegalcortex, on 12/18/2007, -1/+4This $8k/gallon figure seems a little stupid. What's so significant about a gallon? Peppermint extract is pretty damn expensive when you price it by the gallon. So is saffron. I'd much rather see the price PER PAGE. A little ink goes a long way.
    • bxblox, on 12/18/2007, -0/+1It takes A LOT of peppermint to get peppermint extract... ink on the other hand
      • illegalcortex, on 12/18/2007, -0/+1But it requires very little peppermint extract to produce something calling for it. It's a tiny fraction of the whole thing. So it's irrelevant how much a gallon of peppermint or ink costs, only what percentage it makes up of the finished product.
        • bxblox, on 12/18/2007, -1/+3Yet i run out of ink much more often than peppermint extract.
          • illegalcortex, on 12/19/2007, -2/+1And I run out of peppermint extract much more often than I run out of ink. Your point?
        • andycr512, on 12/19/2007, -0/+2My family has an HP printer, and they spend about 50 dollars a month on ink without even thinking twice. I'll have to give them a link to the store I buy really cheap ink from...
        • cowboy86, on 12/19/2007, -1/+2Illegal you're an idiot. It doesn't matter what the hell it's made out of because they still charge the same price for it all. It does matter what it would cost per gallon. I wouldn't expect ink to cost more than gas per gallon.
          • illegalcortex, on 12/19/2007, -1/+1Thanks for calling me an idiot. Very classy debating skills.

            Think about it. Even if diesel is priced more than gasoline when you fill up, it's STILL cheaper because diesel engines get more miles to the gallon than gasoline ones. So the thing you have to consider is MILES PER DOLLAR (or dollars per mile).

            There are tons of things that are much more expensive than gas PER GALLON because they are much more concentrated in terms of how much you need per use. How often do you go through a gallon of gas compared to a gallon of ink?

            I can't believe I actually have to spell this out.
        • mountaincable, on 12/19/2007, -0/+1Thats a terrible argument, real vanilla extract costs a fortune in Canada yet in Mexico a large bottle can be purchased for next to nothing. Were Canada the exclusive supplier of peppermint to the world it would be costly in other parts of the world, it's a regional thing.

          Fortunately we were not talking about baking supplies, the discussion was based on inkjet printer cartridges and ink prices. Could you imagine if automobiles were cheaper than gasoline? People would be purchasing automobiles that come with a half tank of gas left and right, then dispose of them shortly after. Think of the ensuing environmental impact this would cause. The real issue here is the outrageous price of printer ink, a commodity that is by no means short in supply. The amount of waste caused by underfilled cartridges which are designed not to be refilled and the packaging used to ship them is unacceptable, and the profit margin for these products does nothing but go up.

          For the sake of debate, let's keep the argument relevant and not be condescending.
          • illegalcortex, on 12/19/2007, -0/+1I appreciate the tone of your reply (unlike others).

            My point is not that printer ink is not overpriced. My point is also about keeping the argument relevant. Putting the price in gallons is like having a story that puts the price of gas in tankers. It's just not a relevant unit of measure and will also make people think it's pricier than it is. It's sensationalist, plain and simple.
  • Hermmunster, on 12/18/2007, -0/+3There've been some reports that show that the cost per ounce of ink is greater than the cost of gold per ounce. Consider what ultimately happens to the ink--it goes on paper and then generally gets thrown away. This doesn't happen to gold. It generally increases in value. Why does something that you throw away cost more than something that has been valued for thousands of years?
    • Kappa00, on 12/18/2007, -2/+3It costs more because the market says so.
      • tgc1, on 12/18/2007, -0/+2Small correction.

        It costs more because the MANUFACTURERS say so. Just FYI.
    • illegalcortex, on 12/18/2007, -0/+1Part of the value of gold is that it IS so durable. It can also be used for things that are a lot more valuable than making printouts.
    • molecool, on 12/19/2007, -0/+1Yeah, like adorn Angelina Jolie's curves in Beowulf :-)
  • Kevlar02, on 12/18/2007, -6/+0To those of you who don't know this PRINTER COMPANIES LOSE MONEY ON PRINTERS. If you buy a $200 printer it usually costs at least 250+ to make it let alone that $49 printer which is usually $100+ to manufacture. So here's as hint either you pay more for ink from these companies(which is where they make up this loss) or you pay more for the printer either way their going to get your money. If you all refill your cartridges say good-bye to $49 printers because you'll never see one for less than $150 ever again. Think about things before you get your panties in a twist.
    • thephosphorbox, on 12/18/2007, -0/+2Way to buy into the myth, bud. I bet you believe that cel phone providers lose money on the hardware when they sell you a discounted cel phone after you sign up for a contract, too :)
    • andycr512, on 12/19/2007, -0/+1Well, I guess I'm just a horrible person for not purposefully falling into their trap and spending an insane amount for their ink instead of the $7.50 for 500 pages I have paid since I got the printer (haven't purchased a single Epson brand cartridge).
  • es58, on 12/18/2007, -0/+2wouldn't be surprised to find out this was true, because I've long suspected it, but it's probably a hoax; put me down for the class action
  • psykiv, on 12/18/2007, -0/+4I bought a Brother 2040 printer from staples a long time ago. It came out to like $10 after rebates and coupons. Best $10 ever spent. I actually printed about 2300 pages (there's a counter in the control panel program) before i had to switch out the starter toner it came with. I spent about $40 on a replacement toner from ebay, and since then I've printed out a little over 1,000 pages and I'm still going strong (it says it still has ~72% left).

    I will never go back to inkjet again. If I *need* to print out something in color, I'll have it printed out at Costco or Walmart.
    • tgc1, on 12/18/2007, -0/+0Thanks for the tip. I'm going to look for this printer. That was my assessment as well, just print photos at a lab. It's just a hell of a lot cheaper. And the quality is better. And prints don't smear when you get water on them. Oh, and they don't really fade either. Just better all around.
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