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175 Comments
- i4ybrid, on 06/02/2008, -5/+92Definitely the main reason I don't seed as much as I should is because of this issue. The other issue is it seems to destroy routers.
- smokeydbear, on 06/02/2008, -5/+55This is a horrible investigation. He runs some tests of dubious utility and then makes the conclusion that ISPs needs to be able to sell QoS in order to fix the problem and that Network Neutrality is the root cause of all latency problems. He's got the scientific method completely backwards as he doesn't test his post-hoc hypothesis but instead just throws up some drawings of how he speculates that his hypothesis is hinted by his prior testing. This is nothing more than a poorly veiled attempt to smear Network Neutrality. Furthermore if you search through this guy's other articles you'll find that this is the common tenor of many of his stories. Buried inaccurate.
- benexor, on 06/01/2008, -3/+47this has always been a common annoyance in any home network, and it doesn't look that hard to fix.
- danielsamuels, on 06/02/2008, -2/+33Because obviously everything on Bittorrent is pirated. *rolls eyes*
- DeathfireD, on 06/02/2008, -11/+40Wow, I had thought this was something to do with Comcast. I'm happy someone wrote an article explaining what the real problem is. Now all we need is someone to fix the problem.
- shadowspawn, on 06/02/2008, -2/+29I've seen this as well. I don't like the zing in the article about net neutrality and made me do a double-take, but the effects are really there. But then again anyone running "ping tool" (an online game server query app from *way back when*) would totally gank _everyone_ on a fat connection anyway.
So yes, Virginia... depending on your router, multiple bursted TCP connection packets will degrade performance for UDP connectionless applications (game,VoIP,etc.)... which this article doesn't really go into the differences between the two and how different routers handle the priority... with some it's like apples taking over oranges, with others it's fine due to QoS. - Laminarcissus, on 06/02/2008, -1/+25If it only had a remember-to-unpause button.
- straylight08, on 06/02/2008, -0/+18This can be sorted out on some routers. The one that I've got allows you to implement QoS on the local network in the house, so that games run nice and smoothly whilst you're doing bittorrent downloads. Seems to work out quite well. You just need to buy the right sort of router :)
- inactive, on 06/02/2008, -2/+20Looking at your username, I don't want to think about what content you DO consider is worth seeing.
Also, shut the ***** up. - Asheis, on 06/02/2008, -1/+17One of the less desirable fixes, one that isn't always an option for some people... limiting speed. I've found that with my cable connection, limiting the speed of the downloads to somewhere around 50kb/s, and uploads to around 15-20kb/s results in a barely noticeable download. Of course, this is only ideal if you NEED to be gaming, or doing some other crucial task while you want to continue your download. It takes longer, but you can effectively do two things at once, so I feel it kinda balances.. At least this is what works for me.
I did find this article interesting! - inactive, on 06/02/2008, -0/+15Hurray for passive aggressiveness.
Do you pee in their shoes too? - plizard, on 06/02/2008, -4/+19get dd-wrt and you have less of a problem.
- MrZop, on 06/02/2008, -2/+16I'm just pissed that i'm only getting 3.5kbs on average. 2weeks remaining. yay. ugh.
- absentmindedjwc, on 06/02/2008, -4/+17is it just me... or is this article condoning the sale of packet prioritization.... I am ok with QoS that is done right.. but selling packet priortization is absolutely wrong, because we know that all ISP's are going to abuse it and turn it into a nightmare for the consumers.
- sbga420, on 06/02/2008, -4/+17Learn how to cap your upload speed, its not hard to fix
I have comcast and I cap my upload speed to 30kbps, and everything else runs just fine while downloading torrents - Ganpachi, on 06/02/2008, -0/+12FTA:
"Now it is possible to solve this problem on the network level by prioritizing VoIP and gaming packets in the home DSL modem upload queue. "
I know this is an option on the legendary WRT45G, I use it and it works great. As long as I have reasonable caps on my BT traffic in line with my overall connection speed, I can game and use VOIP and BT at the same time. - mikimouse, on 06/02/2008, -9/+19I just avoid to play online games when downloading stuff with BitTirrent.
- redxii, on 06/02/2008, -0/+10Not only do you need to limit the download and upload, but also the number of connections. If you're trying to download/upload with a zillion connections it's still going to cause problems. Not only will setting the connections to unlimited do more harm than good, but it will keep other people on the network from doing even the basic thing like browsing the interwebs. Setting the connections to maximum won't necessarily yield a faster download. I set mine to 100 connections max, 2 torrents at a time so that's 50 per torrent. Most of the time I am connected to fast peers and have no problem achieving a really decent download.
- asshopo, on 06/02/2008, -9/+19I have 15mbit down / 2mit up. I have DD-WRT on a Buffalo router. I have the QoS Download Max set to 14000 and Upload Max set to 1750. I set HTTP, Xbox, SQL Server (things that need immediate attention) to high priority and everything else bulk. I never notice any lag whatsoever and I run BT 24/7. I'm not pinging all the time, but I don't notice CoD4 on the 360 lagging nor did I see lag in WoW when I was playing. Dunno what the fuss is about.
- LegalizeGanja, on 06/02/2008, -0/+9Maybe he means the cache gets full... which is seems to do with mine. I have to unplug it every few days to keep it working.
- ACiDGRiM, on 06/02/2008, -1/+10Why is the internet always illustrated as a cloud? don't these people know that is just a series of tubes?
- mrsteveman1, on 06/02/2008, -0/+9If your router supports QoS CORRECTLY it shouldn't be a problem
Tomato firmware for Linksys lets you force all traffic into a low class, and then give exceptions for things like syn, ack, rst, dns, low size http requests etc.
It works perfectly, i let utorrent use whatever it wants and the router kicks it back when i use other things. - JMSantos, on 06/02/2008, -0/+8You obviously do since you are ranting about someone complaining.
- juniorb, on 06/02/2008, -1/+9What do you mean seeding "seems to destroy routers"?
- FieldAnonymouse, on 06/02/2008, -1/+8I have two people on my network who torrent constantly. 24/7. I eventually fixed everything by installing a laptop with packet filtering and limiting the number of active connections they are allowed as well as dropping their overall priority. They still create some excess lag from time to time, but things are far better now than they were before.
- InfamousAtheist, on 06/02/2008, -1/+8The effect of prioritizing big business' packets on the internet over the rest of the packets on the internet is what's offensive. It's not necessarily the sale of said equipment; it's the way the ISPs will use it to stifle equality on the Internet.
- Earthacis, on 06/03/2008, -0/+7"That and I keep BT uploads capped to something reasonable like 20KB/sec and I never even notice it's running."
He said "Uploads." I think anyone who is using bt to download anything is going to want as high of a down speed as possible. :P
I do the same thing and I hardly see any problems while gaming, or VOIP and I usually use skype while gaming. - wutname1, on 06/02/2008, -0/+7i have burned up 3 linksys routers in the lasy 2 years with all the torrent, gaming, and VOIP traffic coming out of the 8 PC's in my house, constantly having to restart becuase of the tiny 16Kb cache and linksys keeps logs of EVERYTHING
i built a cheap P3 with 512 ram running ubuntu with 2 nics have that as my router / DHCP server not 1 issue has been on 24x7 for the last 10 months now not 1 issue - propagandhi, on 06/02/2008, -4/+11I call BS on this one. Flawed data collection and analysis as a way to try and defend the opponents of net neutrality.
- minorthreat, on 06/02/2008, -0/+7prioritize packets yourself the way you see fit and have someone else doing it for you for how they see fit are two totally different matters.
- Monk22, on 06/02/2008, -2/+8but whats even more annoying is you complaining about a misspelled word on a message board. could you not understand his sentence? i wish i had as little to do as you, it must be nice.
- luchid, on 06/02/2008, -0/+6Best solution out there: Load the DD-WRT firmware on your router. Lots of models are supported. You gain tons of new features and settings. It's much more stable and fast, too.
- 4degrees, on 06/02/2008, -2/+8isnt that what setting a max connections and max rate are for? With Azureus(sp?) all i have to do is set the max upload speed to something like 20k and the network runs fine, i am able to play COD4 and others whole BT is working. Azureus also has a plugin that monitors latency to a user defined server, and adjusts the max upload accordingly, it seems to work rather well.
- inactive, on 06/02/2008, -3/+9What are you doing on digg?
You can go now. - 350Zed, on 06/02/2008, -1/+6The author of this article needs to take a basic Cisco (or other major vendor) QoS course.
All of his questions will be answered, and all the practical implications revealed. - TheShad0w, on 06/02/2008, -1/+6Alright what most people aren't realizing is that this is a network hardware/software protocol issue. I don't want my ISP to decide whats important. I want to decide whats important. I can do this by using better protocols and network hardware. If you don't know how to setup QoS on your routers or with your P2P clients then I'm sorry. I can mitigate network traffic really easily with rtorrent and my router.
Those $40 routers weren't meant for this. Its time for people to realize that if you want to do more than simple home networking its going to cost money. - BassJunkie, on 06/02/2008, -1/+6Not sure why your being dugg down as you seem to have a good system implemented to help negate the effect's this article describes.....
- danielsamuels, on 06/02/2008, -1/+6Do you have a link to the original submission so we can digg that and bury this?
- ZachSka87, on 06/02/2008, -0/+5Haha, wow. I just looked at your comment history. U R PURTY SMURT. EYE WIL LEESTIN TO UR R-GUMENTS.
You're a racist bastard. Don't ever comment on Digg again.
Also, for someone with "Anal" in thier name you sure are anti-gay. You know what Freud would say.... - wutname1, on 06/02/2008, -1/+6i work at comcast and i will tell you it is partially comcasts fault they DO traffic shape to slow bittorrent connections
- Laminarcissus, on 06/02/2008, -0/+4From something that takes place in a store, to a position at Comcast that has direct knowledge of what, if true, could potentially be one of their most closely-held corporate secrets?
I'd like to give dude every benefit of the doubt... - inactive, on 06/02/2008, -0/+4Dude switched jobs?
- kris33, on 06/02/2008, -0/+4It has alot to do with your ISP and the quality/noise level on your connection. I had ADSL for a while (broadband through old copper telephone lines, bad quality) and had a lot of problems with my latency while bittorrenting. Almost all online FPS-games were unplayable.
However, I have not noticed any problems with my latency after I got fiber (very good quality of signals, almost no noise). I can almost max my connection (300KBps lower than max) with bittorrent while playing online FPS-games without noticing any problems with ping (always below 60) - JMSantos, on 06/02/2008, -0/+4Because you made this post, the internet grew in size and you are no longer downloading half of it. Try again later.
Signed,
Zeno - osbjmg, on 06/02/2008, -1/+5You've got a new fan right here. Thank you for being competent and reading the article instead of blindly digging. This was highly disturbing.
If you introduce the latency, you can take it away.... it's not up to your ISP. You can do something about this, at YOUR router. C'mon George Ou, what are you talking about?? - jman583, on 06/02/2008, -0/+4or...
http://www.dd-wrt.com/wiki/index.php/What_is_%22DD ... - wutname1, on 06/02/2008, -0/+4that could be people limiting their upload....
- Lobstah, on 06/02/2008, -0/+4Decent article, but he never even mentioned the drawback of splitting the P2P packets. Overhead. TCP's overhead is not insignificant, and to double or even triple it is quite a lot.
- HonoredMule, on 06/03/2008, -0/+4I'm really surprised Ubuntu doesn't have a "gateway edition" that just asks a few questions on install and configures a machine as a standard, full-featured gateway/headless home server. The level of effort required to produce such a version is relatively small (assuming they improve the quality/reliability of their server packages overall) and I bet there's plenty of demand for it.
I just spent nearly a week learning about/setting up just such services (would use Debian if I started over) and despite the difficulty I had getting everything working together--DHCP, DNS, Samba, WINS, IPTables (which covers NAT, QoS, firewall, and port forwarding), a few services like SVN and HTTP--none of it was so esoteric that an out-of-the-box Linux-based solution couldn't have fit my purposes nicely. Neither would the setup have needed to know anything more complicated than what (if any) local domain name I wanted to use, which interface was external, how I connect to my ISP, would I like any IP addresses reserved for specific machines, etc. A lot of underlying details were very complex, but would (or could) always be the same (and as it turns out, Debian would have done a better job of setting them up sensibly in the first place, with few exceptions). - Crozz, on 06/02/2008, -1/+5Huh? All it said was "poorly conceived Net Neutrality legislation". How is that encouraging against net neutrality? It just warns of a side effect, one that can be fixed while causing no less net neutrality.
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