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129 Comments
- jambarama, on 10/12/2007, -5/+40@7of7
Maybe this is a joke, I don't know, but Peter Gutmann isn't a "medical imaging specialist", he is a pretty famous computer scientist. His focus is security, encryption--that makes DRM right up his alley. He may not as famous as say Andy Tanenbaum, but Andy is more a kernel programmer. In any event, Gutmann really is a highly respected security expert, and while his paper seems terrifically biased, he has solid logic backing it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Gutmann - s-m-a-c-k, on 10/12/2007, -8/+43can someone be more specific as to what DRM is present in Vista... aside from the HDCP stuff and the document creation stuff that has been present in XP, I have actually never seen any specifics...
the term DRM is being bandied about like other politically-charged words, but I still haven't seen specifics in regards to Vista... - appidydafoo, on 10/12/2007, -2/+37"didn't really read the article too carefully, but it seems to have a point"
Shuuuuuuuuut the ***** up - TheRingmaster, on 10/12/2007, -7/+42http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
I await an expert evaluation of the severity of impact this will have on performance. - flag564, on 10/12/2007, -3/+34"didn't really read the article too carefully, but it seems to have a point"
That should be the official motto of Digg. - cquinnd, on 10/12/2007, -23/+53None.
The DRM differences between Vista and XP don't even come into play unless you are running Blu-Ray or HD-DVD media out to a 1080p display over an HDMI interface. Or if you have specifically enabled the features utilizing TPM for signed drivers and hard drive encryption on the system (for which you would need the Business, Enterprise or Ultimate editions of Vista).
I don't know what Mr. Gutmann's specific issues are, but he appears to be taking speculation about DRM features in Vista (which will also be supported in Mac OS X) to a far extreme.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+30The worst description for a *news* item I've ever seen.
"So there's some war in the middle east I've heard about. Apparently people are dying. What's everybody think?" - felderado, on 10/12/2007, -5/+31All internal communications in Vista appear to be encrypted. Of course this is going to kill performance.
And it totally explains why it has such ridiculously high system requirements.
Go read the link ringmaster posted. There are going to be some serious problems.
Then again, Vista changed the way the graphics drivers interface with the kernel -- user mode, not kernel mode, and they appear to have tweaked it somehow.
Either way, Vista isn't giving you the performance you COULD have, which is a kick in the balls for those with lower spec systems. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -5/+29"come into play unless you are running Blu-Ray or HD-DVD media out to a 1080p display over an HDMI interface"
Not true. The CPU must still check whether you are playing these discs, and *that* is what this article discusses. - floodyberry, on 10/12/2007, -2/+21I didn't really read your post too carefully, but it seems to have a point. Mind if I add a few layers of blogspam, then submit it to digg?
- ho0ber, on 10/12/2007, -1/+19As far as I've read: nope.
- bart5986, on 10/12/2007, -11/+25Marked as inaccurate.
Unless Vista is lying to me, its running at 0% cpu usage at the moment, so its not checking my hardware out.
The only thing that seems to be crippling game performance at the moment are my graphics card drivers. Maybe once Nvidia finish the drivers for vista we can find out if DRM is doing anything bad to my games, which it probably isn't. - mesostinky, on 10/12/2007, -2/+16"If anything, gaming in Vista will be FASTER, because the video card no longer has to have robust 2D support. The desktop environment in Vista is 3D,"
Now who is guessing wildly without anything to back it up? Pot meet kettle. When DX10 games and hardware become mature, then yes Vista may provide a better gaming experience with regards to performance.
But until then on your current hardware all signs point to Vista being slower at gaming then XP. Every new MS OS that comes out is slower and takes up more resources compared to the previous OS. If you don't like that fact then complain to Microsoft. - atomicSpatule, on 10/12/2007, -1/+13It's more like 30 times every Second actually ;)
- Titan486, on 10/12/2007, -2/+14Is it possible to get directx 10 on anything thats not Vista?
- Pigeon, on 10/12/2007, -1/+13*Sigh*
Everyone goes on about how they know games will be faster because of DirectX10 or they will be slower because of the rest of Vista when they don't know what they are talking about and have _never_ used the technologies from a developers point of view.
Everytime a DirectX application calls DrawIndexedPrimitive() it suffers a small CPU hit, considering many of these calls are made per frame the CPU hit begins to add up. DirectX 10 and the new driver model improve this and cause a smaller CPU hit. This means that instead of that CPU time being used sending drawing commands it can be used on better AI or whatever else.
From the developers point of view this is a Good Thing (tm). Batching drawing commands to be as effective as possible is difficult, DirectX 10 helps with this. - Grym11, on 10/12/2007, -8/+19@7of7
Wow you couldn't be more wrong if you tried. The paper was written by Peter Gutmann, a renowned security expert with a Ph.D. in Computer Science. Everything in the paper is based off of technical documentation and publicly available information behind Microsoft's "premium content" protection scheme. If his claims are unsupported, then Microsoft has got some serious explaining to do to all of their business partners who are currently designing hardware around these very same pages.
The funny thing is, you didn't even READ the article you're writing off as "unsupported claims"--you just read the blurb. I know this because when this article was put on slashdot a couple days ago, the submitter incorrectly attributed Dr. Gutmann as a medical imaging specialist. It seems you had made your mind up at that point and didn't even bother to read the comments below that corrected this. - Urusai, on 10/12/2007, -2/+12That's one thing I couldn't figure out. Back when I was looking at game APIs, the DirectX API was typical Windows garbage (poorly thought out, full of backwards-compatible cruft, suffering from their lack of foresight) compared to OpenGL and SDL. Maybe my glance was too cursory, but I just don't see why any developer would limit themselves to Windows-only DirectX unless Microsoft was paying them in some fashion.
- 7of7, on 10/12/2007, -39/+48Here's a better headline for you "A medical imaging specialist writes a paper full of unsupported claims."
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10dude he didn't read it too carefully, but it seems kinda right... diggity?
- vertinox, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10@"*****. DX10 will still be hardware bound to the capabilities of the graphic card being used, just like DX9 and OpenGL are."
This is similar to companies who say they can make your ping times lower by making a better with special software in the TCP/IP stack.
The truth of the matter is no... No matter how well you write the software, in the end it is the hardware that will carry the load. It is like rewriting a super TCP/IP stack, but you won't notice any difference because you still have a dialup modem. - livejamie, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9"Diggity Diggity Diggity" ?
wow - Linkage155, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10Yeah, poster even states he did not read the article fully, and inserts that. What a joke.
- cwilson, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10"I didn't really read the article too carefully, but it seems to have a point."
Thanks for screening the content you posted for accuracy and integrity. Honestly, did you just see the article and post it as quickly as possible with hopes to make it to the front page? If so, you were successful, but thank you for making Digg ever so slightly less reliable when it comes to getting news. - SirBotchness, on 10/12/2007, -3/+11It's like anything microsoft does turns into a big conspiracy and is evil, even though other companies do the same.
- ArnoldTPants, on 10/12/2007, -1/+930 billion times a second? You are an idiot.
- tdkyo, on 10/12/2007, -7/+15Wow, both of the articles you have pointed out seem to be written from a 12 year old. Forgetting which side of the debate we are on - do you think those two articles qualify as a legitimate support that Vista would hamper gaming? (With such poor writing?) It seems "Fuad Abazovic" (the author of both articles) needs to take a class in writing.
- vhold, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9It idles at 10% cpu usage?
That's pretty active for idling. Right now my XP box is idling at about 0.5% What is it doing? - WarezAppz, on 10/12/2007, -3/+11Actually - anything (currently) using OPENGL is disabled (using Vista Currently) - GuildWars which is strictly DirectX runs better on Vista than it did on XP for me.
On the other hand, City of Heroes/Villains, which uses a combo of OPENGL and DirectX looks like crap and runs accordingly. - OBKenobi, on 10/12/2007, -5/+13[quote]Plus the idea of Vista being bad for games if laughable. DirectX 10 anyone?[/quote]
Well, unless you chalk it up to lack of drivers, or maybe the overhead from Aero, many DX9 games have not performed better in Vista so far. MS (or at least Crytek) claimed that DX9 games would run better in Vista compared to XP using the same hardware.
http://digg.com/gaming_news/DX9_games_run_faster_on_Vista_than_XP
DX10 will be better for games not because of Vista but because of DX10 hardware, which can be utilized through OpenGL just about as well. It's up to game publishers I guess, I hope they avoid the Vista trap, because if they don't, they will be at MS's mercy--as will much of the rest of the industry. - 9mmCensor, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10Idiots like this should not be allowed to submit articles to digg.
- panique, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7Yes, 30 times a second (actually 33.3), per device that could possibly leak protected content.
And sirsean, the overhead of polling is dramatically increased over previous operating systems since even command and control pathways to DRM-encumbered devices have to be encrypted.
Give it a good read: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt - Petronski, on 10/12/2007, -13/+20***Unless Vista is lying to me...
Hmmmmm. - vertinox, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7Have you ever considered that some people read and comment both on Slashdot and Digg because each are suited for their own roles?
As someone who owns both Macs and Windows PCs I don't see the whole point of taking sides with a product I own. It isn't like the product is going to reward me for my loyalty. It should be the right tool for the right job regardless of loyalty towards the company in question. - tekz0r, on 10/12/2007, -3/+10i feel a proper discussion of an article of this stature is better suited for a slashdot crowd, buried as "no one on digg has the mental capacity to understand or respond in an intelligible manner"
and buried for the blatant begging to get dug as a story, you should have your nose rubbed in it like when a dog pisses on the carpet.
fool. - jlebrech, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8Here's an idea, why dont games manufacturers DUMP DirectX in favour of Opengl + SDL, or OGRE or Crystalspace. Then just a simple recompile, or what about a multicompile, make the game an MMO, make it phone home then piracy wont be an issue. Rather than DRM make it dependent on a service and make it work from Linux.
WoW Linux???
If WoW was Linux only it would still rock. Just release boot iso for different Arch's and GFX cards and you're set. - Hardcase, on 10/12/2007, -10/+17Didn't you hear? Digg is the new Slashdot!
- MioTheGreat, on 10/12/2007, -3/+9"maybe the overhead from Aero"
Aero won't run while a full screen directx device is active. It has to shut itself off. Just launch any game, you'll see Vista basic turn on. - donkeydrop, on 10/12/2007, -10/+16Marked as inaccurate; neither the linked article or the original source refers to games. This is purely about playing DRM protected video (i.e. BD or HD-DVD).
- Halodude1489, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6You my freind are an idiot.
- autocrawler, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Yes, it is true that ATI's R600 is based on X360's Xenos, but the X360 still does not fully support DX10-the ATI's spokesperson has confirmed it:
http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3153097 - Eleo, on 10/12/2007, -3/+9I'd just like to say that I benchmarked FEAR on my computer in XP and then Vista and it ran -significantly- faster in Vista. Then afterwards, I did everything I could to figure out why and couldn't find any reason why this would be so, and couldn't find any personal ***** in my experiment.
FEAR - 1024x768 - XP
minimum FPS: 22; average FPS: 44; maximum FPS: 109
under 25FPS: 12%; between 25 and 40FPS; 42%; above 40FPS: 46%
FEAR - 1024x768 - Vista
minimum FPS: 22; average FPS: 64; maximum FPS: 170
under 25FPS: 7%; between 25 and 40FPS; 21%; above 40FPS: 72%
Both tests with the exact same game settings which were auto-detected identically on either OS (I will not post them here to save space; plus I don't even remember them). This was on a Pentium D 820 (2.8GHz), 1GB of RAM, eVGA Geforce 7600GT with the latest official drivers. I'm not a Vista fanboy or a computer genius. But I read Vista was supposed to be optimized for gaming and it -might- be at least partially true.
Personally I advise people to test it out themselves and see what results they get. I am still sort of mindblown by the overall difference in performance and am convinced I somehow gave Vista an advantage or XP a disadvantage... - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+9According to the article, that's true. I don't know where that 30x per nanosecond number came from.
And how long will it take to poll the hardware in this way? 10 cycles? 100? Considering the fact that there are 2 billion cycles per second to work with, this hardware polling will use something like 3000 (30 * 100) cycles per second, which is really not that significant.
Sure, it might "hamper your performance." By approximately 0.00015%. My guess is that Microsoft decided that it was worth it and that it's basically physically impossible for anyone to notice that.
(On the other hand, it'll probably turn out that some devices take a lot longer than 100 cycles, depending on what they're doing or where they are in the system, so this number could increase somewhat drastically ... perhaps even as high as half a percent!)
In short, I wouldn't be too worried. (Oh, and a disclaimer: I don't use Windows (and thus I don't really play games), and I'm not too fond of Microsoft. I just don't see anything to panic about here.) - brendanc, on 10/12/2007, -18/+23And this proves nothing. As an earlier poster said... the "DRM" will not come into play unless you are using an encrypted hard drive, or playing HD movies on BluRay or HD-DVD over HDMI.
If anything, gaming in Vista will be FASTER, because the video card no longer has to have robust 2D support. The desktop environment in Vista is 3D, so switching to a game is actually must faster since the video card doesn't have to "start up". Also, DX10 will be leaps and bounds over DX9 in terms of speed and capability, so if that were any indication, I would say all this news about "DRM this" or "DRM that" is just a bunch of bunk.
DRM only affects you if you use DRM-enabled content. If you don't like the idea of it, don't buy the BluRay movie; don't buy the HD-DVD movie; don't buy those songs off of iTunes, or the Zune Marketplace. There are MANY alternative ways of getting content, whether they are legally questionable or not.
I wish you guys would quit spreading FUD about this crap since you obviously know nothing about it... or at least not enough to back it up.
/rant - autocrawler, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6Marked as inaccurate. In my experience with Vista RTM, games like, say, Half-life 2 achieve *higher* FPS under Vista than under Windows XP.
I guess what the essay really means is that Vista could have been even faster if the content protection was removed. - deadbaby, on 10/12/2007, -6/+11The Xbox 360 will have some sort of D3D 10 implementation I suspect.
- aerogant, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5This is true for most copy "protection". That is one of the reasons when I buy a game, I look for a crack to remove the "protection", because for most games there is at times a noticable hitch that occures when the game is checking to make sure a legit disk is still in the drive.
Even worse, about a year ago I installed a game, I think it was track mania sunrise, and it installed something on my computer, which I had no idea it did until I someone sent an email out about it. Basicly my DVD drive became really bad some time after installing the game, I couldn't even watch DVD movies any more because the performance of my DVD drive was ruined. This was also long after uninstalling trackmania sunrise. And after removing the software, my system went back to normal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StarForce
Stuff like this will always comes at a cost, you would think it would be a small cost, but in order for protection to stay steps ahead of hackers it will require more and more resources to do it, and because it requires secrecy and specialized hardware creating virtual cartel on this hardware, the costs are not just performance. - hockey, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4@brendanc
As long as video cards support OpenGL they will support 2D acceleration since OpenGL still has 2D acceleration built in (albeit not much support but support nonetheless).
glDrawPixels anyone?
Also your comment about the video card not having to "start up" doesn't make much sense to me since start times don't factor in for in game performance. - tweak13, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4As has been mentioned in a few other posts, poor drivers in vista may actually be improving performance in some cases. It sounds counter intuitive, but if an incomplete driver disables a complex feature there may be less processor load. Sound especially is showing this. As I understand it EAX isn't working in vista meaning that all the load from EAX just doesn't exist when running a game in vista. I'm sure that there are other small examples like that which when added up could make a big difference.
- verifex, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6This is what I want to know, why in the hell is Microsoft on the list of Companies against trusted computing: http://www.againsttcpa.com/tcpa-members.html
And they have some of the worst trusted computing practices put into place in Vista, it is as if the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. DRM is crap: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKI_w_VBoTQ -
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