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- keithcu, on 10/12/2007, -3/+25This is the most important piece of OSS news in the last year. Sun has much work ahead of it to figure out what it means for all of their codebases, and it will take them several months to work through it, but its great to see that they've done the hardest part which is make the commitment.
Now we just have to help them figure out exactly what it should mean and hold their feet to the fire as necessary!
.Net was a distraction that shouldn't have been created but the fact that .Net is more widespread than Java on the Linux desktop had to have been a part of that. Mono scared Sun... - Odwalla, on 10/12/2007, -3/+17"I'll think you'll find that .NET is Windows only"
.NET is an ECMA standard. Haven't you heard about Mono? (http://www.mono-project.com/Main_Page). Quite a large number of GNOME apps are written in C# instead of C now. - brentzilla, on 10/12/2007, -2/+15"java is a bloated slow beast... "
This isn't the 1990's anymore. Java is not slow. It's called Hotspot VM. There are many benchmarks that will show you that Java is not slow. Or perhaps you'd rather spread anti-Java FUD. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8"java is what it is because it's a cross-platform, interpreted language that's easy to learn and open-sourcing it is a great move."
I can't believe people modded this ignorant fellow up.
Java is not a interpreted language, it's a compiled language. In fact, the JVM Hot Spot compiler is so effective at dynamic compilation that it's actually faster than compiled C or C++ code in various tests? How is this possible, you say? Well, one of the drawbacks of a statically compiled language is that they are unaware of the myriad of target environments that are running their code on so the compiler will usually optimize for the lowest common denominator. The fascinating thing about the JVM Hot Spot compiler is that it has the ability to optimize the native code it generates to the exact CPU it's running on, thus, generating native code that is more efficient than a static compiler could ever hope to generate. - projectshave, on 10/12/2007, -3/+11Welcome to the 21st century, TheLastGnu. Java hasn't been interpreted for 10 YEARS!!! It is compiled with a just-in-time compiler exactly like .NET. I can't believe the amount of misinformation on Digg from self-appointed techno-dweebs. Check your facts before you flaunt your ignorance, people.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7
Why would IBM be frothing at the mouth? IBM already distributes their own version of the JVM with their WebSphere products. Java is huge at IBM, partly because a large majority of their middleware is written in Java. IBM's interest in open sourcing Java was to ensure that no one company had complete control of the language. What do you think would happen to Java if a company, as evil as SCO, purchased Sun? - brentzilla, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7If you don't know what Hotspot VM is then don't make a comment in a comment thread talking about Java being slow unless you do yourself a favor and go read about why Java isn't slow anymore. This isn't exactly rocket science. Just because you don't know about something doesn't mean you shouldn't go educate yourself on it before joining the discussion. And for the record, Java applets are not a good example of what Java is capable of. Java is much better on the server side than on the client side anyways and you don't really ever see that. But you do get to appreciate it (insert Gmail here...yes, on the server side).
- GeekyGirl, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7It would have been nice if Sun had announced that it was open sourcing Java effective immediately at JavaOne; however, this is certainly a step in the right direction.
They have not yet released a timeframe because they still need to figure out exactly how they will open source it and resolve a few issues first. - mackstann, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Of course they can't prevent forks (or other uses of the code), but as long as they enforce the Java trademark, no one can use that name for their fork. I don't see why they need to complicate the issue any more than that. (Please correct me if my understanding is flawed)
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6
Neat, have you seen the Java MAME online emulator called Cottage?
http://cottage.consolemul.com/
you need to register, but you can play all those old arcade games online. - patm1987, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6java is slow on execution in some areas, especially if you plan on keeping it multiplatform by useing swing/awt. in order to do java "right" it may get some slowdown, but the speed at which you can write and deploy an application (barring small issues like ogl vs dx) instantly cross platform and not having to worry about memory management easily outweighs the speed issue if it really is an issue.
the problems I don't like with the language involve how well it works on cell phones (ever try writing a java cell phone program then trying to run it on your friend's?) and the small memory footprint (by small I mean where did my gig'o'ram go?). Still a good language, and it get's props for being write once run anywhere across at least my windows partition, linux partition, and my mac machine. - patm1987, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5The reason why I like this announcement is prolly the reason why sun didn't want to open source it. They are afraid of branching, and having many different versions of java floating around. This is already a problem, with blackdown java, ibm's implementation (is that blackdown) and one or two others (like gcj). If sun does this, the other java "distros" will prolly use the sun code to enhance the performance of their individual projects. In the end, there are already many complaints that java already doesn't work across platforms. Though I have had success writing graphical programs that I deployed across osx, windows, and many linux variants, java on mobile phones doesn't seem to work out so well.
The main point I'm trying to make, when sun gets open sourced, and with so many other java projects under development, java could very easily become a very fragmented language. Write once run everywhere may not reign true across different unix vendors, or even different service packs of windows (especially if microsoft makes their own jvm... again). Also, I already get annoyed at the system resources that one jvm takes up, I can't imagine if I had to run two of them 0.o
otoh, open sourced java could greatly enhance the language. Stuff like automatic garbage collection could work much better than it does currently (I really like this one quote, "in C programs, the programmer frees the memory. In .COM programming, the memory is freed whenever it is no longer being pointed to. In managed code, memory is freed whenever it feels like it"). With both java and c# (I guess the CLR, but I only really used C#, and not even mono's implementation) I noticed clear slowdown in running programs. Although, writing the java or c# tool/application can be done in a day (and you can drag/drop into tabs, which is totally awesome as anyone whos tried to do windows programming in c/cpp knows) I still prefer to write in c/cpp .
Ignoring the possibility of fragmented java deployment, this definately could turn out to be awesome. Personally, I can't wait until I can use Project Looking Glass on a daily basis without my computer crashing after 20 mins (kinda unrelated, but will most def. benefit from improvements offered via open source java).
[edit: digg doesn't like two 'plus' signs next to each other] - rasterbator, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4WTH everhappened to JINI? This was supposed to allow all appliances in the home to communicate with each other.
http://www.sun.com/software/jini/
They should make that open-source so we can start geeking out our home. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3
"I personally love garbage collection. When writing a game engine it may be counter-productive, but when writing a tool or application, it greatly speeds up development time."
It's nice to know that you love garbage collection. It's a pity you don't understand it, though. If you did an analysis of the amount of CPU cycles a game engine wastes by issuing malloc's and recovering the memory you would find that garbage collection is actually more efficient than having to manage memory manually. - Derrekito, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4WooHoo I have been waiting for this! I cannot wait to see what the community can do! Hope Java will really take strides foward! Sun is the best!
- gamekid, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4"I see you have never taken a college level computer science class in your life."
Exactly--my place uses Java as standard too.
I like how .net (as a Microsoft-started thing) blends well with Windows (and better since 2.0) but http://www.arcadestreet.com/games/super-mario-bros-deluxe/ is an excellent example of why Java DOESN'T suck (it did take a while to load though). - Tyrax, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6".Net was a distraction that shouldn't have been created"
I think that a lot of people would disagree with that. Java is a good language but it is not the best language for all situations, but its what has to be used to work with the JVM. Personally I like having my choice of what language I want to use, and still use the CLR - Chozabu, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3hmm, someone else on digg said gmails backend is in python
perhaps jython?
besides, java is much faster than ajax, ruby, or flash
saying that, im still not too keen on java, could just be because i havnt used it much...
also, @tarzan, your thinking of monad - 5blocksfree, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4@rasterbator -> WTH everhappened to JINI? This was supposed to allow all appliances in the home to communicate with each other.
I think we might find (eventually) that there has been a resurgence in interest in JINI - last month I attended an excellent presentation at our local JUG meeting that focused on JINI and what it has to offer. Part of the problem is that it wasn't very accessible - it was too much trouble to download - but that has changed, or will change shortly. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Why would anyone buy Sun hardware? Well, for one thing, they're not as expensive as you seem to believe. In fact, they're cheaper or very competitive then their competition. You also need to take into account that those Sun servers have great engineering inside of them and their newest line are one of the most energy efficient servers in the world.
As for Java, do you really think Sun made a lot of money with Java? They didn't and they probably lost more than they made. - DickBreath, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3My understanding is that C#, the language, is an ECMA standard.
.NET is not a standard.
Mono is an open source clone of .NET. There are still questions about whether, at some point, Microsoft might start lawsuits over .NET. If they do, it is likely that Microsoft will wait until tremendous resources have been expended developing Mono. - jrsims, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I was excited about this announcement until I realized that this is the same old rhetoric we've always gotten from Sun on this issue.
They've always said they wanted to eventually open source all their code - including Java. The only thing different about this announcement is the method in which they announced it. They said, "It's not a matter of IF we open source Java, but HOW". ...But how long will it take them to come up with a "how"? The way it's phrased, this announcement makes it safe for Sun to delay open-sourcing Java for a long time to come. If pressed for answers, Sun can always say, "We're still working on the 'how' part of the equation" or "we haven't found an appropriate license".
I think Sun makes great technology and I'm a proponent of Java, but to me, this is typical Sun waffling. Until Sun announces a timeframe, there will be no measurable commitment that we can hold Sun to, and no reason to get excited. Yet.
Here's hoping. - pinac, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2There's no indication of what Sun consider's "java"
They've published the source code to the JDK for years, but it hasn't been released under an "open source" license. Will this include the jvm?? That would be news. - asmodeus, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2To me, frothing at the mouth evokes images of a dog that has gone insane.
- Derrekito, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5@Odwalla
I never heard of this project! Wow to think I was recently wishing for such a thing! .NET for Linux :) thats great! - nailbunny, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2it's funny, for as outdated as pile thinks java is, all anyone wants around here is more java programmers
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5agreed.
this news means great things for OSS everywhere. - TheLastGnu, on 10/12/2007, -9/+11java is what it is because it's a cross-platform, interpreted language that's easy to learn and open-sourcing it is a great move.
- beforeIforget, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3I bet IBM is frothing at the mouth over this news. When Sun says it's not sure how to release it, it actually means .. "How to we prevent IBM, BEA, Oracle, JBoss, etc from releasing better versions than ours?"
- relinquish, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Projectshave:
For heavens sake, take it easy. He may not be an expert on the topic, but he's only looking for improvement. Not everyone is knowledgeable about these things. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5"actually, he is right... java is a bloated slow beast... sun should let it die the slow death it deserves"
I see you have never taken a college level computer science class in your life. But, thanks for sharing your thesis with us. - patm1987, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I like that quote cause it's funny. It had the entire class cracking up (sad as that sounds).
I personally love garbage collection. When writing a game engine it may be counter-productive, but when writing a tool or application, it greatly speeds up development time.
and, btw, I'm not graduated from college, I'm still in it. If you would like to help educate me I'll gladly accept your help, I could use any useful bit of data I can grab. - zzleeper, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5DAMN.. good news... I hope that the result of this is a better java (not only a free one)
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2b7j0c: Unfortunately, you do not posses the intellect to post counter claims based on science, so you instead resort to a lame insult. If you would like to refute these scientifically proven claims, then post an intelligent reply with information supporting your claim. BTW, it's evident that you're either not in college or have selected not to attend. In the event that you are thinking about enrolling, I suggest you take a few computer science classes regardless of whether it's a major you want to pursue. The enlightenment you'll receive will truly blow your mind.
- beforeIforget, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2er, I think I screwed up my analogies ... I meant that IBM would be very excited by the news. Maybe "licking their lips" would be more appropo. I agree with your statment though, IBM and the whole Java community benefit by an Open Source Java. Even if it splinters a bit, it's better then it being taken hostage by one company.
- bieber, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Now lets just hope that it actually ends up as free software, not just open source. If so, I may actually start using it. Although Mono's probably already got me hooked...
- burnt1ce85, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4If it's free, it's allllll goood. :)
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3"What other choice do they have? They're getting their asses kicked by Flash on the client side, and a whole slew of new technologies like Ajax and Ruby. With all due respect, Java was obsolete before it got started. The technology never addressed a specific market; other technologies have existed that perform better than Java in virtually every area.
"
Are you aware that Java is primarily a server side language. I know it may be difficult for you to comprehend, but when you press the big button, the work, more often than not is being done by Java. Incidentally, GMail and Google Calendar are both powered by Java in the backend. Boy, I bet I just rocked your world with that last statement. Java is huge at Google. This is evidenced by the applications they've developed in Java and the number of people they've hired from Sun. - stonyhill, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Well, if they're going to wait until they can guarantee that it won't "diverge," they'll never get around to releasing it. It appears that somebody at Sun still doesn't understand the nature of free and open software.
- xaxxon, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1garbage collection MAY be non-deterministic, depending on how it is implemented.
Don't be an ass. - coding, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1My comments were too large:
http://source.bitspy.com/2006/05/16/sun-open-sourcing-java/ (no ads) - jonesin, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Pardon my skepticism, but I don't believe them. You know how long they've been talking about open-sourcing some of their stuff? And they never do, or they never do it right (gpl).
- brhad56, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Even if Open Solaris is free to download/install, companies will still purchase support.
- fullcollapse, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2FormulaOne = lame java nerd
- aldenhg, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I wonder how long it will be until there are compilers that will make native binaries. Oh, what a wonderful day it will be when I won't have to have that stupid VM running.
- Crazen, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1b7j0c you're making a fool of yourself.
Any level 400 CS student knows that a large portion of optimizations are based on heuristical assumptions made during the static compile of a C program. With Java and other virtual machine languages, actual statistical information can be gathered to re-optimize during run time. Over a long enough sample you get accurate reading of how the software will behave.
If you knew anything about Java or any other "real" VM based system then you would also know that malloc (how long ago, if ever, were you a programming student? In the OO world it's new, and it's not a good idea to mix the two) it takes many more instructions to the CPU to actually allocate memory than to use it. In Java with a three generational (at least in Sun's VM) garbage collector, the memory is allocated during startup, thereafter you're marking the memory within the block as opposed to relying on the system's default heap manager to do the work for you. hence the mark and sweep garbage collector is necessary.
The only reason why I'm explaining this is because some quiet new CS student might believe in your gibberish, because you probably didn't understand a word I said. - Crazen, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2.NET took what Java had done, and made it accessible to the VB handi-programmers, and the C++ "if you only have a hammer's" (although the std library is a good thing across the languages).
I'm happy that .NET came out because it injected significant improvements in Java (Templates, virtual memory, etc...)
However, if the FOSS community continues to compete Java against things that are not in the same class (aka Python, PERL, PHP, Ruby, insert weak object oriented, typeless or weekly typed scripting language here) regardless of specifying what the task it's being used for. .NET can overtake Java once projects like Mono mature and the FOSS version of the VB handi-programmers (aka Pile above and other closed minded pseudo programmers) have their way. ECMA is a puppet of Microsoft, that's why Sun didn't go there with Java. IETF/ANSI is too slow to allow Java to keep it's edge, look at C/C++.
When mono reaches the community, performance and maturity of Java there will certainly be another evaluation for projects I lead. As of now, the FOSS projects for .NET suck on the tit of Java.
Classes of languages:
Next Gen: Java/C#
Past/Prev/possibly current resource intensive: C++
my homepage: P*, Ruby, Flash/ActiveScript, VB - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1
Until today, I don't believe Sun has ever officially said that it would open source Java. This announcement is significant because it's the first time a high level Sun official has stated publicly that they will open source Java. The process is underway and they'll need guidance from the community, but it's finally open source. - brhad56, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1As a Java Developer, forks in the code will caused major code compatability headaches. One JVM to rule them all, please.
- nailbunny, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1cant believe they interviewed some techie at boscov's. because when i think high tech, i think boscov's. their stores are like the set on the price is right, complete with contestants.
must be somebody's friend -
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