What is Digg?125 Comments
- d-spg, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3What good is calling a bit of land a 'province' if you have no control of it? That's like Britain calling the USA a province. It's just temporarily lost control of the American colonies, but they're still there!
- d-spg, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Frankly, if mainland China was democratic, and the countries decided to merge, I think more people would be accepting around the world. But, the idea of a dictatorship taking control of an established democratic nation is disgusting, and I don't think any explanation is necessary of why that's the case.
- IHaveIssues, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2coreguy is now gone - the word "democracy" showed up on this site and the ever watchful Chinese censors have blocked the page.
- kb9okb, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2This is sad people. Dardan seems to be the only one who has the correct information. Many of you need to brush up on history. Throughout the 30s, the US was a strong supporter of China's Nationalist government, run by Chiang Kai Shek. Then came Mao Tse Tung, who brought about a Communist Revolution that resulted in a civil war between the Nationalists and the Communists for many years. When the Japanese attached China, the Nationalists and Communists called a temporary truce and both fought the Japanese. After WWII and the defeat of the Japanese, despite very close historic ties between the Nationalists and the US (including much aid and support for the Nationalists from the US), Harry Truman sold out the Nationalists and started talking to the Communists. Eventually, the Communists grew strong enough to militarily start taking control of the Chinese government. Chiang Kai Shek and the Nationalists retreated to Taiwan, and remained a loyal supporter of the US. That is why, until the 70s, Taiwan represented all of China at the UN because it was recognized as the rightful government of China. Then, the world sold them out even further when Communist government of China was recognized and is now a member of the Security Council at the UN. Taiwan, however, has always been a loyal friend and ally of the United States, which often was at odds with Communist China.
In my opinion, the US should make every effort to support its staunch allies, including Taiwan. Taiwan is depending on the might of the US to protect it from a Communist invasion, and thus far it has worked. Don't think for one minute that if the US was out of the picture that China wouldn't invade Taiwan at the fist chance. If the US backs down from China and lets China invade, loot, and destroy Taiwan, it would be selling out its ally and stabbing it in the back. - kidhero, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2everytime coreguy says something, China Telecom credits 1 more hour to his account.
- rm999, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I am from america.
The chinese government, (by US standards) is evil. Most educated people here agree with that. I am not defending the US (I think the current US administration is bad too, but I like the US as a country). China has a terrible record of human-rights. Worse than the USA. China does not give its citizens basic (by american standards) rights like freedom of speech. Why? Not to protect the citizens, to protect the government from the citizens! America was founded on the principle of government by the people. China's current government was founded on agression and the state being more important than the people who make it up. What's the purpose of having a state if the people in it don't matter?
I know most of the history of Taiwan, but it's not the history I am talking about. It is now. The American south was conservative, pro-slavery, anti-industry. They broke off from the country with a revolution, not the other way around. Taiwan, on the other hand, broke off when China had a revolution. China is America's version of the South. China is the one that rejected the other side, like the American south rejected the north.
Economically, Taiwain kicks China's ass. The average person in Taiwan lives a modern, comfortable, lifestyle. The average person in China lives a relatively poor lifestyle (money-wise). Taiwainese people do not have to work in factories making products so crappy they are sold as trinkets in poorer countries. They drive the computer industry with modern factories.
Taiwain is doing great, but China wants it back. If China had been running Taiwain this whole time it wouldn't be nearly as great as it is today. But the Chinese government doesn't care about anyone else, including its own people, so that doesn't matter to them. Time and time again it has been shown: Communist dictatorships simply don't work in the end. The only reason why China is becoming more wealthy lately is because they are relaxing their own principles and westernizing. - jeff1943, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I am a native Taiwanese. I grew up there, I know everything about it.
Let me ask you guys. Would you people want a communist country to rule over you? I think most of us here don't want that.
And every Taiwanese don't want that.
Getting ruled over China is just losing freedom.
China may be really powerful in military. But they still don't have the ability to feed their 1.3 billion of people.
If Taiwan hadn't been so weathly, so full of resource, why the heck would China want it? - d-spg, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1The United States of America cares, too, or they wouldn't have sent aircraft carriers into the straights between Taiwan and China a few years ago.
- d-spg, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1What is the point of 'essential love for your country'. That sounds a bit like propaganda to me. All that talk about the "motherland" or "fatherland". It is a tool of governments used to control their people.
- DardanAeneas, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1coreguy: how can we believe your views are your own when you could be locked up if the Chinese government (through one of their 30,000 internet police) found you posting something that deviated from their political doctrine? Well you did say: "i'm not a CCP member and even not satisfied with the government." That's dangerous...
- rm999, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I feel bad for taiwan. They have become much more wealthy than China, but they are still held down by the ***** who run China. Everyone, including the USA, is scared to declare that Taiwan is its own country even though it clearly is. I propose we boycott China and all the crap they import into our country (and down with Walmart, who sells all their crap!)
And shame on Google. Going for the almighty dollar. They kiss China's ass so they don't block google on their firewall... - ShadowRider, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1HAHAHAHAHAHA OWNED. The Province of Taiwan is only good for bracing hurricanes.
- subtle, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Mightyoro, do you own a laptop, a printer, a camera, or almost any electronic gadget branded Hewlett-Packard, Apple or Dell? Chances are, it was made by a Taiwanese company. And, even if it wasn’t (and this applies REGARDLESS of the brand), the semiconductors inside it were.
“Taiwan is only getting press right now because they're the so called underdog�?
A few facts:
1. According to the CIA World Factbook, Taiwan’s foreign reserves are the world's third largest. (Incidentally, the CIA is quite happy to call the island “Taiwan�.)
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/tw.html
2. Hon Hai Precision Industry Co., a low-profile Taiwanese company, ranks No. 2 on this year's BusinessWeek IT 100. That makes it four straight years in the top 10, a performance matched only by Dell Inc.
http://www.ebusinessforum.com/index.asp?layout=rich_story&doc_id=7338&categoryid=&channelid=&search=Taiwan
3. TrendMicro's brand value jumped by 14 percent to US$1.077 billion this year, making it eligible for Business Week's list of the world's top 100 brands.
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2005/10/05/2003274493
4. Yesterday, Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Co Ltd said it has completed prototype runs for its customers drawing on 65-nanometer (nm) technology.
http://www.forbes.com/markets/feeds/afx/2005/10/05/afx2260813.html
So, no, I don’t agree that “once Taiwan actually breaks away from China no one will ever hear about Taiwan ever again�.
But, to get back to the point:
Google says its description of Taiwan as a province of China is consistent with international naming conventions such as those followed by the United Nations.
And, in totally unrelated news, Google also says that it plans to open a research center in Beijing soon.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000087&sid=aLNkyHFehH78&refer=top_world_news - Mofo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Taiwan has a great captialist economy and yes they outsource many factories to China because it's cheaper (that's the only reason anyone builds ***** there, how would you like to be the backup worker on a factory line that makes wind-up toys for mcdonalds happy meals?). Hmm taking over a captialist province off mainland China this reminds me of something. Oh yeah Hong Kong! What happend to Honk Kong's economy the second the British left? It nosedived and hasn't recovered since, and most rich people from HK fled to Canada. I'm sure those in Taiwan enjoy going to bbc.co.uk or www.cnn.com as well without worrying about having to bypass the great firewall of China and get put in jail or re-education camp by the ministry of state security.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship_in_China - MightyOro, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0okay i could be wrong and some will hate my comment but everyone defending taiwan is like saying california should break away from the states. taiwan is part of china, just because a bunch of people move to taiwan who are anti "china" wants to break away from their "motherland" is just not going to happen...remember texas? the lone star state...that didn't really work out now did it? and to be honest, china does not "need" taiwan. do you people really think that taiwan's economic power is greater than china's? let's put it this way, once taiwan actually breaks away from china no one will ever hear about taiwan ever again because it effects us that much. taiwan is only getting press right now because they're the so called underdog. and to everyone who keeps saying that taiwan is doomed if china takes over (reclaims it) take a look at hong kong are they doomed? all i know is that taiwan will never become independent of china the most that will happen is they'll become another hong kong...Taiwan SAR
- compu73rg33k, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Who cares. Just make us our products.
- saruburg, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Correct me if I'm wrong, Taiwan was recognized as China, and held a seat in the UN. Around 1990, Taiwan lost its seat in the UN when Taiwan was no longer recognized as a country, rather as part of China. That's when Taiwan had to call itself "Chinese Taipei" whenever you see them in the Olympics or the Little League Word Series.
- chychang, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Wow, seen so many people posted their comment regarding this story. As a person been born and raised as Taiwanese (or Chinese?) that means a lot of personal touch.
You needs a long history lecture in order to figure out the political mess between Taiwan Strait. Even a lot of we people in Taiwan has no clue what this fuss all about, or even care. The general sense of the people on both sides of Taiwan Strait is that they are tired of all these political non-sense and just want a peaceful life. unfortunately that may not be realized in any time soon. - bananaluke, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Everyone who is anyone knows Taiwan belongs to China.
- txgeek, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0kb9okb -
So since Russia was fighting the Nazi's we were allies with them? Right after America and Great Britain had tried to kill their revolution? No, we all got together at Yalta and decided to cooperate and coordinate with eachother to fight a common enemy but we were not allies. Check your "facts".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yalta_Conference - ShadowRider, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Oh, and as I remember from history, the Goumingdang (nationalists) never did as much to free China as the communists, instead, the nationalists turned against the communists in the middle of a war with Japan. I don't know how much claim anyone can make for Taiwan.
- kourge, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0You guys are so naive.
This is political, not tech.
It's complete ***** to argue about naming and positioning problems. - kb9okb, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0TXGeek... if we didn't come to Taiwan's aid, who would? You would prefer we do nothing and allow China to run roughshod over Taiwan and do to its citizens what it does to its own (ie. rape, torture, etc.)? I would rather fight to defend our allies. If we don't stand for anything... if our word is no good, then what good are we as a nation?
I mean what if Russia tried to invade Britain? You think we would sit back and let that happen? (not that the British wouldn't totally whip the Russians in an all out war, but that's another topic) - theMaxx, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Taiwan CAN'T change it's constitution to include only the island of Taiwan without damaging the status quo. In fact, China has it very clear that any change to the status quo would immediately be interpreted has a declaration of independence and would then launch an attack.
There is 2 main political camps in Taiwan now. You might hear that one camp is pro-independence and the other pro-unification. In fact, the pro-unification camp, mainly the KMT, is not for a unification at all cost and nowadays represents more a strong stance on the sustaining of the status quo then other options. The KMT is also mainly populated by Mainlanders who fled the mainland to seek refuge in Taiwan as well as their offspring. They are a minority of the population. Their sentiment of attachment to the mainland can therefore be more easily understood. The KMT forced the Taiwanese to speak only Mandarin in schools and provided no teaching in Taiwanese language. The mainland culture and history was thought as their own. It is only after the democratization of Taiwan that the sentiment of identity as Taiwanese grew significantly as an open and voiced opinion.
Most Taiwanese, regardless of their view on the question of whether or not to unify with China eventually are at this point supporting the status quo. They view the status quo as a keeper of peace and economical prosperity.
Factories moving to mainland are driven by the same motivation that westerner's companies have. They want cheaper production cost.
For those praising or describing the Chinese military as overwhelmingly powerful have to understand that up until fairly recently, Taiwan's military was strong enough to be assured victory in case of a Chinese invasion. I believe it is sill regarded as having a strong repellent capability. Taiwan's spending on army is the highest $ per citizen ratio in the world. It's military equipment is much more advanced technologically, thus somehow compensating for the soldier deficit with China. Taiwan has strike capability within China on strategical locations that would be disastrous for China. Of course, Taiwan doesn't have enough to last long against today's Chinese army, but the cost and difficulty level as well as implications are too great for China to decide invading Taiwan tomorrow morning. That and of course a somehow implied support of the US, though the US tend to remain vague about the question.
I don't have a clue how to solve the situation but the current status quo is definitely the most beneficial to most.
Taiwan's name cannot be officially changed or accepted as “Taiwan� without shaking the status quo as of now and it is then preferable to refer to Taiwan using more neutral ways, when the appellation is used in a situation that is or resemble an official one.
But a “Province of China� is NOT a neutral appellation! It is charged with political implications and is a slap in the face for Taiwan.
To want to do business with China is a legitimate motivation for Google, but to go as far as labeling Taiwan as a “Province of China� is just plain wrong. It is not representative of the actual situation in any way. But now that they have used it, they will have the hardest time pleasing China if switching to a more neutral appellation... It would be seen as a move to please Taiwan, which China wouldn't like.
.. - d-spg, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Yeah, the link for the first one should be http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taumatawhakatang%C2%ADihangakoauauot%C2%ADamateaturipukaka%C2%ADpikimaunga%C2%ADhoronuku%C2%ADpokaiwhenuak%C2%ADitanatahu
- ShadowRider, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0OMGLINUXWOAH, by army do you mean the guys using scrap metal in Iraq to build armor? Cause that looks like a pretty ***** army to me.
Donald Rumsfeld
"You fight with the army you have" - kb9okb, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Mightypro - again, you're missing the point (and history) read this entire page before you comment.
- kb9okb, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0TXGeek: "So since Russia was fighting the Nazi's we were allies with them? Right after America and Great Britain had tried to kill their revolution? No, we all got together at Yalta and decided to cooperate and coordinate with eachother to fight a common enemy but we were not allies. Check your "facts"."
Haha, thanks for proving my point. OF COURSE Russia was allied with the United States during WWII, just like Nationalist China - go pick up a history book. Oh, and don't try to cite Wikipedia as a source - you can edit it in realtime. ;) - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0As someone who works with more Taiwanese people than you can shake a stick it, I have to say it's nice to see them take a stand against the ridiculous hegemony that china has put upon that nation.
They left china so they could be their own type of people, they are not chinese, they are not a province, they do not think the same, they do not act the same, they don't even look the same.
They left Taiwan, brought their own constitution, and solely moved toward a democractic model because of they did not agree with their former government's actions.
Sounds an awful lot like US neh?
To bad they don't have oil. We could settle this much quicker.
And for the people who think that China has the largest army, wake up get a clue. The are at least 30 years back in development when it comes to any military techonology, as far as nuclear proliferation it isn't even close.
If you don't think the United states has the biggest, best, most advance military complex, then you haven't been paying attention. Look at our jets, our super carriers, hell look at what we outifit our troops with. I can't believe anyone would even try to argue that China is a military threat to us, it is ridiculous.
Before anyone brings up Iraq remember, occupation and war are two entirely different beasts. - MightyOro, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0alright first off can we please get unbiased comments here. and just to respond to Mofo and Subtle, i never said taiwan is bad and i never said china is good. but it's just the truth, the chances of taiwan being able to break away completely with china probably will not happen and their best bet is to be a "SAR" like hong kong. so yeah, hong kongs economy isn't doing all that great but i never said anything about that did i? i said that china does not need taiwan for economic reasons because they're well off as it is. by the way, has anyone seen people from hong kong get thrown into jail for censored materials? true, the censor crap in china is pretty bad but it's not like hong kong is taken over by it. and as for the news press thing, please think of it now...besides this whole USA,China,Taiwan fiasco what other significant news is there about taiwan? does anyone else notice that once anyone on this "digg" says anything remotely good about china or remotely bad about taiwan you get flammed...and we're the ones being called close minded. i gave a reasonable comment about the issue and i get flammed, i even gave an example about the lone star state "texas" and how that didn't really work out either but it seems to me that the truly close minded people out there will flame you once they read "china not bad" or "taiwan has no chance" and won't even consider anything else you say in your comment.
- kb9okb, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0ShadowRider and Brizzonator2, it all depends on your perspective of course. If you consider the Chinese Communist Revolution to be a just usurpation of power, then it is the rightful government. If it was unjust and illegal, then the Nationalist Government (Taiwan) is the rightful government. I'm not saying either one is "right." I'm only saying, from the perspective of the US, we should back our ally for nearly a Century, Taiwan. By comparison, we were at de-facto war with mainland China via Korea, Vietnam, and the Cold War - the Chinese are definitely NOT a US ally, like Taiwan is.
- sailor, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0We shouldn't be doing business with china at all!
I find it funny how communist leaders talk about how wrong capitalism is, yet they freely indulge themselves in all that money can buy. They do this while the people of china suffer. They know that if freedom comes to all, they will be removed. So until then we should close the
benefits of a free market. - fillemvs, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Let's just calm down for a moment and really consider what is good for all parties involved. At the present time, I don't think there's any doubt that a return of Taiwan to China is healthy for either side, nor would it make the US happy. However, at the rate that China grows, and hopefully politically as well as economically, it will become a developed and somewhat democratic country in time. It is that that time, I think, that the pro-unification Taiwanese people likely will prevail and reunify the nation.
For those of you who do not know Chinese history, you must understand this: Historically, China was divided periodically, especially between dynasty changes, usually the previous dynasty holding small lands out of reach of the new dynasty, but China ALWAYS become unified in the end, it's in their blood. Such is exactly the case in Taiwan, the pervious "dynasty" the KMT lost to the commies in mainland and fled to the then Chinese province Taiwan.
It is not a question to ask whether or not the two will reunify, one should instead ask, when? - lollerskates, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0You still don't understand. The legitimate government is the one that is in power, not the one that _was_ in power before.
And beating, raping, and murdering? That's way too xenophobic. They don't beat or murder people in China moreso than the US does in Guantanamo.
That is to say, they only beat and murder "terrorists" who pose a "threat" to the nation. - bacon_skoda, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0unifying china and taiwan makes as much sense as unifying North Korea and South Korea. they are essentially the same people. decades and situation have changed some things, but the people and the history are the same.
there was a nice tv show a while back where HK singers went to taiwan and sang in taiwanese and the taiwanese singers sang in cantonese. both had a great laugh at each other's accents. So I don't think these people hate each other like some say they are.
US needs taiwan so they CAN put battleships right next to China. Same with South Korea, Japan, etc. - Akayus, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Leave it to Google to start WW3. :P
- aggies11, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Whatever the history is, it all boils down to one issue: $$$
Taiwan is finacially independant of China, it's now a world player.
That one fact means that it is independant in every form but name only.
The difficulty of the situation is purely semantics, Taiwan wants to be refered to as a seperate entity, China doesn't.
The US is stuck, it can't recognize China's claim as it's obviously no longer relevant, however it can't formally acknowledge Taiwan, and risk offending China (Which starts happy fun WWIII).
So it advocates a "Don't rock the boat" policy. Neither side pushes the issue. China isn't offended, Taiwan is independant in every way that counts ($$$), and no one gets blown up.
Aggies - Chango_Family, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0> America was founded on the principle of government
> by the people.
Thanks, its always great to be able to laugh when its crappy outside, I love fairy tales. - lollerskates, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0It's more of a legend than a fairy tale as it takes place in historical settings, but I get what you mean.
- Brizzonator2, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0"THE UNITED FREAKING STATES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"-Spirion
Yeah, but the difference is we had the nads to actually say, "foad" to England(that at the time was just as militarily superior to the US as China is to Taiwan, albeit not as close).
If the french hadn't supported us monetarily and (belatedly) militarily, we probably would have gotten our *sses handed to us in a hat.
Everyone keeps talking about Taiwan like they are a bunch of helpless aborigines, they have over 150 U.S. F-16s and the U.S. trained pilots to fly them. It's not as though they are over there waving sticks. The "Taiwan relations act" says that the U.S. would back them up(although admittedly the U.S. has a great habit of "forgetting" about its obligation). They need to grow some nads though, I stand by that. Either that or quit whining about semantics. - lollerskates, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Anyway, I think Taiwan should realize that they no longer have a connection to Mainland China and they should go for independence.
Do the Nazis have a claim to the Federal Republic of German because they once ruled it? Of course not. Does anyone with the blood of the Tsars in their veins have a claim to Russia? - lollerskates, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Damn, beaten.
Anyway, the US wasn't oppressed by Britain. They were just pissy after some stupid taxes. Colonists just didn't get their tea and decided to make a new country.
Want to see a real revolution? Look at France. - lollerskates, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Taiwan is a de facto independent country. Like Australia, which is technically "British" but has no connection at all to England.
- lollerskates, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Yes, that's exactly what I said, spirion. The US would no longer be ours.
- ShadowRider, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0kb9okb, I've always thought that the legal government is the one supported by the majority. I lived in China for 7 years and I can surely tell you that there are about three people in the whole circle who would bow to the province of Taiwan.
- lollerskates, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Oh, and by the way, the "Rightful Government Of China" thing is total *****. The Taiwanese government claiming the mainland is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. For example:
"Hey, America, it's the Queen of the British Empire! We're going to take over because we still technically own your colonies. Give us back our 13 states and we won't bomb your ass. Oh, and we're doing this with Southeast China, Ireland, Scotland, India, and Australia too, no worries."
The Taiwanese fled to Taiwan after a communist coup d'etat. They lost control of China from that point on. - Brizzonator2, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0"Therefore, by declaring their independence, they would be, in-effect, surrendering their claim on mainland China."-kb9okb
You're right, I've changed my mind about Taiwan. I now think they need a good, solid beating with a clue-bat. Claim on China after 58 years, indeed. I claim my rightful place as emperor of France, since my Grandmother emigrated from there when she was 3. Then again, it worked for the jews to lay claim to land they had vacated after about 1700 years, so who knows? For myself, I'm penciling Taiwan into my book besides the "40 acres and a mule" people. - lollerskates, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Well, I assume Google just wanted to be seen by China in a positive light. They are, after all, a future economic and military power.
Plus, it's a huge market. Imagine having a few billion people buying your products.
jeff1943, it's not about what's "right." It's about money, the only thing that really matters anymore. Everyone seems believes that China potentially has more money than Taiwan, thus, they try to please the notoriously strict Chinese government (though there _are_ far worse governments).
TBH, China is not the nazi haven that media makes it out to be. They seem to be in a slow transition to US style government.
I don't think they want to fully integrate Taiwan into the motherland, they want to make it an SAR. - joebus, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0"Taiwan is recognized by only 26 countries in the world and has no seat at the United Nations"
wowowow what should have google done? considering how many countries are in the world and they dont even have a seat with the UN. i think google did the right thing and now that Taiwan is mad google should change it, but i dont think google had much of a choice on what to put taiwan as -
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