What is Digg?36 Comments
- aantix, on 10/10/2007, -1/+25"Without the need to do coding."
The funny thing is, they say without coding, yet they throw up this screenshot?
http://www.readwriteweb.com/images/iceberg/Object-Process.gif
Hmmm, sure looks like a flow chart to me. Sure looks like logic to me. I'm sure that Secretary Sally will be setting up a Google Adwords flow process.
Managers have always hoped for something that makes programmers obsolete. This was the guarantee of Visual Basic and countless other tools. But either they end up too highly abstracted, making the framework rigid and only useful in very specific contexts or they end up being large, flexible, and expressive yet complex to master.
Face it, anything that the average Joe can develop with, is going to be just that, average.
Visual Basic brought development to the masses and anyone who has worked as a developer and inherited any VB project will know the type of demographic that the platform attracts just by looking at the general quality of code.
Custom, creative, above average results require above average people. Period. - chaparyan, on 10/10/2007, -1/+18Why don't people realize that building software isn't the same as building a house with Legos? You can't just stick pieces together and get your custom software come out of the oven. There's a reason software has bugs, is hard to use, and doesn't work exactly the way we want it to: it's damn hard making it! It takes a lot of planning and experience to be able to create usable software.
Stupid companies such as this just degrade quality software developers. If it was so easy, I wouldn't be able to charge $100 an hour for development, I'd just ask my 7 year old niece to log on to Iceberg and whip me up a quick ERP package for a multi-national company. And no cookies until you're done! - vanscott, on 10/10/2007, -1/+8I'm thinking this looks like a great way to mock-up an enterprise grade application. Have business and technical users create the Iceberg app, demonstrate it to the real developers, provide a list of enhancement and have them take a stab at it. This way requirement documentation won't be misinterpreted like it is 80% of the time. This look familiar? http://www.agiledeveloper.com/blog/content/binary/3260585819-project_management.jpg
The organization I work for has rapid development teams embedded within the business making time saving applications. Nice at first, but over time they seem really hacky and not very visionary. Iceberg would probably produce the same results. I think it is great for small businesses who can't afford enterprise applications and want custom software.
Looks fun to use, I'll try it out sometime. - jawadde, on 10/10/2007, -0/+5i call ***** on their product. Anything that is marketed with "...create modules for deep reporting, unlimited calendars, graphing, quick start pages, full function email and file management to list a few..." is total management-buzz. Comon, DEEP REPORTING ? And since when is a calendar NOT unlimited ? Quick Start pages can be anything, and the email is done in a few minutes with Google API.
buried as spam, ***** and boecht - n00854180t, on 10/10/2007, -1/+5This seems rather limited to me. Pretty interesting never the less, but it's hardly going to put anyone out of work. Keep in mind that the people most likely to use this are your dumb ass clueless managers, that don't understand why their computer doesn't power on when they frantically yell "Computer ON!" into the mouse.
- SonicRush, on 10/10/2007, -3/+7Interesting idea. I wonder if it will go anywhere.
- cmburns69, on 10/10/2007, -0/+4My thoughts exactly. In the video on their website they cross out "fix bugs" as if to say that software produced with iceburg cannot possibly be buggy. It'll be a cold day in hell when custom programs don't have bugs...
- OBKenobi, on 10/10/2007, -0/+3Maybe not this particular solution, but modular,widget-like building blocks for applications are how many apps will be created in the near future. There's little reason to code something again that has already been developed, works without problems, and is open-sourced.
This is why open source will eventually become the norm. It will provide the building blocks for custom applications, and no longer will developers have to waste their time on the same low level code that's been developed by others countless times.
I don't know what it's going to do for employment, but it is something that cannot be stopped, it is evolution. - ClOlD, on 10/10/2007, -4/+7OK, IT industry, I like your initiative, but you've got your priorities wrong:
Currently, my PC has less downtime than my broadband connection. Until that switches (or at least catches up with each other), software providers are better off writing native, local applications. Case closed. - Respec7, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2agreed, but you do understand that they are making this for those who don't know anything about coding what so ever...even the smallest amount.
- justinbmeyer, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2Take a look at:
ZohoCreator http://creator.zoho.com/index.jsp?targetURL=%2Fhome.do
DabbleDB http://dabbledb.com/
QuickBase http://www.quickbase.com/
CogHead http://www.coghead.com/
LongJump http://www.longjump.com/
They are all doing the same thing. Yet, no-one without development experience could use them. Try explaining relational data to a non-developer.
Another critique is that that the generated applications will never match other SaaS providers like 37signals. They can't provided that level of control.
I started building one of these over a year ago until I realized this fact. Then I figured out what developers really want - flexibility, control and ease of development.
Thats why I've started an open source project for just that, Scaffold.
http://scaffold.jupiterit.com
(yeah, it's a plug, but for open source, please forgive) - liquidhalcyon, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2Oh, they're releasing the new Titanic OS, huh?
- SVPirate, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2Duly reported as spam - why don't you take your anti-GHG crap and shove it up your tailpipe... In order to stop producing GHGs for a day you have to hold your damn breath!
- eightysix, on 10/10/2007, -1/+3Will it sink?
- narula, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2There is a market segment of "power users" that don't have the time or money to spend on developing enterprise apps. Having worked with some smart clients for the last 15 years, I have always dreamed of developing a platform that empowers them to manage their own core workflow while allowing me to focus on building resource objects and infrastructure. However, the big hurdle will always be getting non-development people to understand that you can't forsake requirements and process analysis, QA, and change management.
- pragmatron, on 05/07/2008, -0/+1Iceberg has now launched offically and is FREE (for 5 users and non profits) you can get it on www.GetIceberg.com
- junk, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Meant to dig the parent up. The graphic is hilarious.
- spartacus727, on 10/10/2007, -1/+2Iceberg looks neat, but I don't think any platform that focuses on 'lack of coding' will be succesful in the long term. There is a tradeoff between application customizability and the complexity of the application creator interface, so eventually the interface becomes too complex, which defeats the original purpose. This startup is quite similar to a project I've been working on, minus the "without the coding" part: http://scaffold.jupiterit.com
We've put the emphasis on developers with an open source all Javascript MVC architecture called Junction, paired with an online database creation tool and application scaffolds that create a working application immediately for you to get started quickly. And you can sell/share anything you make. - jerbaker, on 10/10/2007, -1/+2I cannot understand why the same people who make the legitimate argument that open source software is preferable to closed source applications due to vendor "lock-in" and the vulnerability of your data to a particular vendor's whims, can turn around and suggest that those very same risks are OK when dealing with Web based applications. I don't know how many times over the last dozen years I have heard that desktop applications are going away, and they've all failed to pan out ... as this push will as well. People, myself included, don't purchase things like software merely because we have to. It's because we want control over our data, it's availability, and reliability. If I have to rely on a Web site being up in order to access my own data, I'm creating a lot of unnecessary risk for myself. You think it's annoying when Digg is down for a couple of hours, imagine if your financial software site was down when you were trying balance your checkbook to see if you have enough money to go shop for groceries. What if my word processing page was down for the last couple of hours before my term paper was due? There are countless scenarios and reason which make Web-based applications a bad idea. I cannot understand who would want Web-based applications except for businesses eager to find a way to wring even more money out of your pocket by using your own data as ransom.
- CosmicJustice, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Comment Dugg up despite lame and predictable put down of VB coders. Crappy designs can be coded in any language on any platform.
- Respec7, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1awsome, gonna put some developers out of a job when some random can make a website backend etc.....
- philbutler, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1 Programmers are still going to be programming and making their monies, Iceberg users will be both online and in resident versions, and other entities like Coghead and others will try to up their game. Great points by everyone - it is good to discuss these things - that is how we go to Web 3.0 :)
The thing I always think about when I test and write about these interesting innovations is: "But what if it really works great in 6 months?" Iceberg is very early in its development and two guys made it based on solutions they made for successful businesses. It is not refined right now, but I made a Google app that interacted with my adwords in about 20 minutes and I struggle with HTML. LOL - chelhydra, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Most of these applications have serious problems with flow / user roles / database schemas because they are designed by marketing people, not developers.
I wonder if it really creates a 100% working web application on the fly, or just sends an RFP. - Speciou5, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Seriously, I'd rather type out ten lines for an if structure or loop then deal with an insane amount of clicking, dragging, context menus, and drop down menus for their "oh-it-looks-so-pretty" flowcharts.
- inactive, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1hey jwadde, this sounds like some f*cking rage against the machine to me Ahole!
how bout next time you take the time to read the text on the website or even god forbit email the ppl at the company before shouting your mouth off.
theres a differ4ence between the calendar on your desk and an enterprises business calendar (but you wouldnt know about that) - nocitation, on 10/10/2007, -0/+0So... widgets == functions on crack 2.0?
- rodp, on 10/10/2007, -1/+1Actually, Iceberg kind of hurt my feelings, since my company has a very similar product for almost 3 years now, but only on the local market (http://www.intera.si/en/features.php).
I agree that platforms like these cannot really replace code ("declaring war on software" is probably just intended for buzz and I don't believe there's a real strategy behind those words). However, I can tell you from our experience that there's a great potential in this idea. At first, we expected to get smaller clients, offering them a cheap way to get enterprise-level applications that meet 90% of their specific needs. However, it didn't take us long to get some major players from the local industry and some government institutions on our platform. It appears that giving more control to the people who aren't too technical is always attractive, especially if there is a well designed, web based user interface. Even developers at my company now agree that it’s easier for us to spend 10 minutes clicking around our own project management application, which was built on top of our platform, and integrate a bug tracking functionality just the way we want it, than to spend a couple of hours actually coding it in some framework.
It won’t work in 100% of the cases but it will in 90% and that, I think, is more than enough to create a market. - inactive, on 10/10/2007, -2/+1MAN, I hope this buries BIG SOFTWARE. They've been getting away with murder, gouging customers and treating programmers like crap for years!
- Meatshield, on 10/10/2007, -4/+3I hope this not only flourishes as it is, but expands into other area of coding. I know there are plenty of projects that I'd love to do, but can't find the time to code myself. This sounds like it would speed up the process.
That being said, I'm still setting one of these up for my programming groups. - tehpwnrate, on 10/10/2007, -2/+1I is here with none other than my main man boyz2006. Booyakasha! Respect.
- laubscher, on 10/10/2007, -3/+1They mention a "Local Install" option on the Features page.
If Iceberg can get this right they'll be a big player in the SaaS space. - SohoPro, on 10/10/2007, -11/+7Anything that does not require coding should be a winner for the masses and push Web 2.0 to new heights.
- BillyWarhol, on 10/10/2007, -10/+5Anything that pushes Microsoft Poop faster into the Garbage Bin is a Good Thing!! ;))
- boyz2006, on 10/10/2007, -7/+0interestin fact
I wonder dude - freehunter, on 10/10/2007, -9/+1So a flowchart means there is coding involved? Wow, I was doing coding in my second grade English class! And of course it requires logic, just not absolute, intense logic. A "point a to point b" flowchart is not incredibly taxing.
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