What is Digg?269 Comments
- acceptab1euname, on 10/12/2007, -7/+69I don't know which is more insane: being into loli or choosing to use bulletin board software that has a license that permits revocation for 'moral' infractions. I hope this drives people away from vBulletin in droves, so maybe Jelsoft will wake up and stop letting censor-wannabes enforce the licensing for their software. Since when do people charged with enforcing copyrights get off demanding "The removal of all sexual and perverse content" from websites, using the copyright of a piece of software as leverage? Seriously. Even when it involves *****-up content like loli. *Especially* when it involves *****-up content like loli.
With any luck Jelsoft knew nothing of this and are in the process of calling mister Howard G Spinks onto the carpet to explain himself. I hope that Pirate Reports finds themselves short a few clients by the time all this is over. Maybe those hongfire people will find themselves some good lawyers too, and get their pound of flesh. - pipdip, on 10/12/2007, -4/+53I don't understand. What does the forum system have anything to do with content? That's like a car company revoking your car because you committed a drive-by in it.
- DirtyWorker, on 10/12/2007, -1/+29I'm having a dialog with them now. In the third mail I got I was called a pedophile and was basically told to find another forum software.. wow.
- DirtyWorker, on 10/12/2007, -2/+29The fun part is that the content was located in a gallery which isn't even made by Jelsoft. When that was pointed out the awesome lawyer dude changed his mind and said they had a poll about incest and that was the reason. Holy crap, a poll about incest! WILL SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!?
I really hope Jelsoft cleans up this mess, it's not their job to "protect" people from perverse or questionable content, they make a forum software, that's it. - DirtyWorker, on 10/12/2007, -0/+25I read the ToS, and it talks about content that breaks copyright laws, not content that is questionable. I myself run vB software, and would hate for my site to be closed because some lawyer decides to play Judge, Jury and Executioner. If that lawyer tried that with my site I would have ignored him. He could contact my ISP but the site wouldn't go down.
I've made a post about this on the vB forums in hope that one of the staff actually gets back to me about it. If this is the case I'm going to start thinking about moving away from vB, which would be a shame as I like the software very much. - OBKenobi, on 10/12/2007, -2/+24Just because vbulletin did something like this doesn't mean they can or should be able to get away with it. What does the vbulletin EULA say? If it says nothing about content, then what vbulletin has done is illegal. Otherwise, if you signed the dotted line, they own your ass.
- acceptab1euname, on 10/12/2007, -1/+23Thanks for the info, I'm glad to hear things from your point of view. Unfortunately, it doesn't do much to improve my feelings about Jelsoft right now. Let's take this point-by-point.
"Firstly there was a complaint from a Child Welfare Group in the US. and I contacted the license owner and asked for the child abuse pictures to be removed. User refused."
I'm sorry that the child welfare group in the US didn't like the content of that site. I don't like it either - personally I think it's extremely disturbing, and I wonder at the sort of person who would be into it. However, if this 'child welfare group' has gotten to the point of contacting PR about it, I'm willing to bet they've already been to the police and were told that the site was legal. If the site had illegal content, I think hongfire would have heard about it first from the police or FBI instead of you. Loli might be a really messed up branch of animation, but as far as I'm aware, it's legal in the US.
"I spoke to the Business Manager at vB and he too felt Jelsoft should not be associated with child abuse even animated. (chained kids and young girls being abused with foreign objects etc. is not normal)"
Reasonable enough. I wouldn't want my company to be associated with that kind of garbage, either. And no, that's not normal.
"Then I asked the user to find new forum software as a refund would be given if the items were not removed."
So you told the user to take down content you found objectionable, or you would terminate their license and force a refund upon them?
"User ignored request and responded to the effect that we in the UK should not try to force UK law on US citizens."
The user was a lot nicer than most people would have been if some jackass from a foreign nation attempted to enforce laws outside of their jurisdiction - I'd have told you to ***** off, and then made sure my ISP would have done the same.
"License revoked under AUP, refund given and network asked to suspend use."
You still have yet to show what part of the AUP hongfire was in volation of - you didn't do it in the e-mails, and you're not doing it here. That seems pretty fishy to me. Can you provide a link to this 'AUP', because all I've been able to find was the license agreement, which says absolutely nothing about Jelsoft reserving the right to terminate licenses if they find site content objectionable.
"Cry foul if you wish but this is the first time I have encountered this sort of material and I am going to call in some favours from my contacts who I am sure will be very interested in taking a closer look."
And I'm sure your contacts will be as disgusted as I by the content of that site. I'm also sure that if the content is legal, they too will be unable to do anything about it but wring their hands and make vague statements about contacts that will be very interested in things.
"I could have revoked the license, not refunded the money and had the license deleted with no dialogue as the AUP of a product is far more powerful than any Law and the owners decision is final."
Yeah, you could have; and you'd look like even more of a pompous dick than you do now. Please show us the specific part of this 'AUP' that one would be in violation of if one were to use vB on a loli website - I'm not asking you to comment on the current ongoing issue with HongFire, as I'm sure that's confidential.
"Children need someone looking out for them and I am not asking for anyones' permission."
If you're interested in 'looking out for the children' perhaps you could get a job at the UK equivalent of the Center for Missing and Exploited Children? Or maybe a job at your local UK equivalent of the DCFS. That way you could do things to actually protect children instead of harassing legal (though disgusting) websites and thinking you're some kind of superhero.
As it stands, you've done an excellent job of showing at least the 30 people who dugg this precisely why they should not consider doing business with Jelsoft. - TheBarge, on 10/12/2007, -1/+22@W00DR0W
If I spank it while watching the porn, yes, it makes me want to have sex less afterwards. - DirtyWorker, on 10/12/2007, -2/+21I have contacted EFF about this matter myself, and I'll be looking forward to having a nice dialog with them about your abuse of Copyright and Trademark laws. It is not up to Jelsoft or you to decide what is legal on any given forum regardless of it being a software they have made.
I've tried to find this elusive AUP all day, and and I've even read the policy which I signed when I bought a license for my site, and there is nothing about Jelsoft being able to revoke licenses due to "morally questionable content" or the fact that you sir don't like what the site is about.
Maybe you will be able to give me links to these policies as the staff over at Jelsoft can't seem to give them to me. - mdshort, on 10/12/2007, -6/+25To those who think "child" anime pr0n qualifies as questionable content:
Animated content like this is NOT illegal, no child was harmed in the making and no child will be. I don't personally approve of it but I must admit that this kind of things fills a "special niche" in what some people are interested in. Whether you like it or not pedophiles are going to get what they want whether it involves effecting some kid for the rest of his/her life or not. However it could help to stop pedophiles by giving them a legal/safer way to satisfy their urges without a kid getting molested in the process.
Just think about it. - signal15, on 10/12/2007, -1/+20Here's a solution:
http://www.simplemachines.org
I use SMF for my site at http://www.juniperforum.com . I am using the TinyPortal module to give it CMS capability. It's simply awesome. And two of my friends that run vBulletin have been considering the switch to SMF for their sites also. Maybe this will push them to finally do it. They have a converter for vBulletin also. :) - S0r4n, on 10/12/2007, -0/+18They deleted a thread about this case in vBulletin.org too yesterday. Obviously they are worried about their reputation now...
- godaistudios, on 10/12/2007, -2/+20I love it. You pay money and then they shut down the site because they disagree with the content? (which is legal, I've researched this extensively)
Please review section 502 of the PROTECT act:
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=108_cong_public_laws&docid=f:publ021.108.pdf
It amends Title 18 of the US Code, section 2256, which addresses "Virtual Child Pornography"
Subsection A states:
(B) such visual depiction is a digital image, computer image, or computer-generated image that is, or is indistinguishable from, that of a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct
Subsection C then goes on to define "indistinguishable", the key to the whole arguement.
(11) the term ‘indistinguishable’ used with respect to a depiction, means virtually indistinguishable, in that the depiction is such that an ordinary person viewing the depiction would conclude that the depiction is of an actual minor engaged in sexually explicit conduct. This definition does not apply to depictions that are drawings, cartoons, sculptures, or paintings depicting minors or adults.
That last section clearly seperates anime, since we aren't talking about an "actual" minor at all.
Mr. Spinks points us to:
http://icreport.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d109:HR04472:
The full text of the passed bill can be found here:
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=109_cong_bills&docid=f:h4472enr.txt.pdf
I've looked through the complete text in reference to section 2256, and its references are based on record keeping and criminal penalties dealing with that.
It does not strike the prior law, nor does it redefine or amend the current law passed in 2003. Moreover, it makes no reference to virtual child porn, whereas the protect act does. As such, Mr. Spinks needs to sit down and read what the law says.
This means that it is indeed a matter of Mr. Spinks imposing his own moral judgements, rather than an actual application of law.
Unfortunately, it appears that the website: www.piratereports.com is down for the moment, so I am unable to get to the contact page.
I'd love to see Mr. Spinks response to my statements. If he could provide current U.S. law that shows that I am somehow misinformed, I'd like to know.
Now I will also state that you may bring up section 504, amendment 1466A, however, 1) Obscenity may be defined by the law, not by an individual, 2) What is considered to be obscene is subjective, and 3) Given what has been allowed currently by both the US and the UK for distribution and the like. Moreover, obscenity must be judged by what the courts have passed down, which is why the following article deserves consideration:
http://www.freespeechcoalition.com/FSCView.asp?coid=271
That said, I post here hoping for a response (and please, keep it civil - my post is neither in favor or against the content that was objected to.) - acceptab1euname, on 10/12/2007, -1/+18Looked through it again myself, and you're right - it says nothing at all about 'objectionable' or even outright illegal content.
"The Software may not be used for anything that would represent or is associated with an Intellectual Property violation, including, but not limited to, engaging in any activity that infringes or misappropriates the intellectual property rights of others, including copyrights, trademarks, service marks, trade secrets, software piracy, and patents held by individuals, corporations, or other entities."
That's the only part of the license agreement that restricts site content. I get the feeling that PR's 'agent' is just used to playing the Big Man, getting a rush of power by revoking peoples' software licenses - just look at the way he responded in those e-mails. 'The matter is not up for debate' - what an *****. It makes me wonder if perhaps the hongfire folks could pool their money for a lawyer or two and nail Jelsoft on some kind of breach of contract - I bet that'd make them think twice before letting a third party play grand censor with their customers' websites again.
If I paid to run vB software, I'd be looking for a replacement if I did't see an official statement from Jelsoft regarding this issue right quick. Who in their right mind would pay $160 for a software license that some puritanical idiot can arbitrarily revoke? The real kicker is how the 'agent' never *could* show the customer which exact part of the license agreement he was in violation of. I guess if you don't want some bully-boy taking away your paid-for software licenses, use a Free alternative? - Luminaa, on 10/12/2007, -0/+16I opened a thread on the Chit Chat forum of vBulletin two days ago, but apparently it was deleted. I didn't receive any explaination about it.
- NilsPI, on 10/12/2007, -1/+17The way this case was handled by PR is downright stupid.
They didn't state why the license was revoked (although several attempts was made during the convo) and they failed to show the costumer what made it possible for them to do so, and as already stated by someone else the VB TOS doesn't seem to include any clause making this possible.
Perhaps 35 years in law enforcements simply is too long for some people, as bringing up potential future UK law along with US regulations that doesn't apply doesn't seem as a sign of great knowledge.
The hongfire staff asks their members not to harass Jelsoft, as it isn’t their fault. That however is downright wrong, VB and the licenses are products of Jelsoft not PR and as such they can be held responsible for PR’s actions related their products.
I’m not suggesting that his should make it ok to harass Jelsoft, but they can and should be blamed for the actions of PR and what seems to be the incompetence of a certain employee. - cykes, on 10/12/2007, -0/+14It is obvious from his emails that this "lawyer" is imposing his personal moral conduct on the Hongfire guys. Even if the content is not in the best light for everyone, law doesn't prohibit it. In other word he is acting out of prejudice, which, if I am not mistaken can be considered illegal.
Fact is he really can't remove your license under the terms of the contract. He is doing it because he has the power to do so and PERSONALLY objects your content. This is an abuse of power and wouldn't stand in a court of law, a real one.
As for the "poll on incest", the act may be illegal, but just discussion about it, as uncomfortable it may be, is not (haven't seen the poll, but I am sure I read somewhere about speech being protected by law).
Ah, if only a real lawyer would take your case... I thought there were some firms that would ask for pay only if they won? - jas168, on 10/12/2007, -0/+13I just scrolled through a LOT of debating about this issue and a lot of longwinded insight into Jelsoft.
So I will sum it up: Jelsoft has always been a bossy, controlling, ***** company and this is not a surpise or even unusual for them. Avoid vBulletin. - aboyd, on 10/12/2007, -1/+14With people like PirateReports representing VBulletin, I'd suggest everyone try phpBB 3, or Vanilla, or SMF. All of those are free.
- Cthalupa, on 10/12/2007, -5/+17@CornStarch
That's interesting, because I've heard criminal psychologists argue just the point mdstarch was. I suppose you think smoking marijuana means you're more likely to do meth, and stealing candy from a conveniance store means you're the next serial killer on the block? - dasunst3r, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11I remember the time when Neowin.net was only in its second year when vBulletin started buckling under the pressure of the forum's growth and stuff. I'm no longer a participant there, but it seems that their switch to IPB was one of the best decisions they ever made.
So point is, vBulletin sucks anyway. - systemghost, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11I would donate money to HF's cause if they decided to take this to court. They have a case and Jelsoft deserves to be hurt by this flagrant abuse of power. I will never use vB for any of my forums and I hope more people choose to do the same.
In other news, has anyone located the part in the AUP this 'lawyer' is referring to? - DirtyWorker, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10http://blogs.dirtyworker.com/2006/12/23/vbulletin-license-problems/
- DirtyWorker, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10They can't, that's the point. This lawyer acted on his own personal feelings of the subject matter. In no way was he allowed to do what he did, but like any good company, Jelsoft stands by his decision when he's made one. They might talk to him about it at a later date who knows.
But, the fact of the matter is that they have no legal right to do what they did. If they tried something like this with me I would have sued them, and I would have won. As the things he said is not written anywhere on vBulletin.com and it wasn't in the contract that I "signed" when I bough the software, he can basically go have a fit about moral some other place.
Also, the sentence Marco used is *****. - DirtyWorker, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10I did the same, and I got a reply that discussion like that where to be taken trough a ticket, not on the forum.
- AlexMax, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9That's a nice list, but if you're looking for a little more in depth comparison of forum sofware, try this:
http://shsc.info/ForumSoftwareGuide
tl;dr version: PunBB, Simple Machines and Vanilla are the best free boards, vBulliten, Invision and UBB.Threads are merely OK, but not free, and phpBB and YaBB are free, but are to be avoided at all costs. - acceptab1euname, on 10/12/2007, -3/+12They can certainly put whatever they'd like into the terms of their licensing agreements - I suppose this would include something giving them the power to attempt to play censor board for websites that license their software. I think it's stupid and a bad business decision, but it's Jelsoft's right to sell their software on their terms.
Of course, this also means that all of their current and potential customers should be made well aware that at some point in the future their license to use vBulletin could be revoked because somebody at Jelsoft or PirateReports doesn't like the content of their site. Possibly the webmaster for that site should have read the TOS a bit more carefully, but seriously, who expects to get their forum software license revoked because they use it for a loli site?
I'm glad I don't pay them for that software, because I can't imagine how pissed off if I had to deal with that jerkoff from PirateReports. Reading that e-mail correspondance was ridiculous - the gyst of the PR person's side seemed to be "we don't like this content, take it down or else we'll revoke your license to use vbulletin and then send a DMCA takedown notice to your ISP cause you'll be using our software illegally at that point!"
I did some googling about PirateReports, and it seems that this particular 'agent' has a reputation for talking down and being a dick to people he has to deal with -- one of his emails mentioned ~35 years of law enforcement experience, so I guess I'm not too surprised by his ***** attitude towards the people 'beneath' him. - KOSmurfy, on 10/12/2007, -3/+12So, something that doesn't hurt anyone should be censored because it *might* increase the chances of someone commiting a crime? I'll think I'll stick with personal freedom.
- novastar123, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9The word you were looking for is libel, not slander
- Dolphin3000, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10"...as the AUP of a product is far more powerful than any Law..."
The AUP of vB says nothing about 'morally questionable content' so Hongfire was not breaching it.
"...I contacted the license owner and asked for the child abuse pictures to be removed..."
The U.S. law does not consider anime as 'child porn and abuse' so Hongfire was not violating any laws.
From wherever you look at this revocation it's arbitrary and unfair. - virtualmachine, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9Ok if VB is revoking license's for offensive content, why hasn't http://forums.ytmnsfw.com/ been removed???
- keiths, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9We run a fairly large vB forum and it definitely makes me think twice if we want to keep using it or not.
- whodaimen, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9"software piracy, "
They had various cracks and links to torrents for games, if VB wanted to be *****, I'm sure they could cite that as a formal reason. - admiraljustin, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9Let me assist you with a PR-to-Human translation: "We do not currently have an Acceptable Use Policy by which these actions can be defended. As it is Christmastime, many of our legalese writers are currently unavailable to write an Acceptable Use Policy. Please wait a few days, and we should have a nice shiny Acceptable Use Policy. We will of course, say that we've had this document all along, it was just kept out of public view, as the document is very shy. Thank you and have a nice day."
- Ratatoo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8This is really disturbing to me - what a terrible thing for an Internet software company to do.
I once hosted a forum where there was a topic about folks around the world that are "playing dead" and posting pics on the Internet. I've long since lost the links, but here's an example: http://www.playdeadpics.com/
Some moms on my site were horrified by pics that a dad took of his kids playing this morbid game - imagine a few little kids laying in a heap at the bottom of a brick wall, pretending to have fallen off. They demanded that I take the pics down - as if, by allowing it, I were somehow advocating the killing of children. I refused because most folks just saw a bunch of kids playing with their dad, and because I didn't want this happening every time one user disapproved of content submitted by another.
To imagine that some angry moms could have called the developers of my forum software to push me down that slippery slope...
Terrible, terrible call Jelsoft. Absolutely the wrong move. I would no longer recommend their software, even if they come to their senses, to have interrupted a site like this, "loli" having or not - it's irresponsible and abusive. - Nanatsuya, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10Howard's a piss-poor lawyer.
He used his personal feelings to justify shutting down a forum he didn't like. He made no effort to look at the actual law nor the Jelsoft Acceptable Use Policy.
Jelsoft's compliance with our dearest Howard's illegal decision is only a sign that they would rather displace an anime board instead of destroy the credibility of a wayward lawyer on a power trip against some harmless Japanese animation. - cunion, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8I haven't seen the content but if it is ILLEGAL then report it to the relevant authorities and they can shut it down and i will support them. If it isn't then your moral outrage doesn't seem to be justification enough to cover it.
My big concern is that almost every Vbulletin forum i have seen is in some way indulging in conduct that would be in breach of a heavy handed interpretation of the AUP. Particularly if you choose to look at different international copyright and censorship regimes. Everything is illegal somewhere - from the use of copyrighted images in avatars through to site content, links to torrents, discussions of piracy or hacking, tutorials in areas that are not strictly legal (or may be in some jurisdictions and not others), defamatory content (very strict laws in some countries), even forums where discussions of suspects might prejudice a fair trial (which there are very strict laws on here in Australia, if not in the states), or criticizing the government of countries such as Singapore, China, etc etc etc.
Are you going to shut them all down?
I think we all need to let the administrators and mods of all the Vbulletin forums that we are members of that are doing *any* of the above know that the company may choose to arbitrarily pull their life's work out from under them tomorrow and they should seriously consider the alternatives.
It's a dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb policy. - acceptab1euname, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8@dirtyworker: gotta give that Jelsoft rep some credit, they handled this a lot more professionally than the PR guy did. In all fairness, that guy didn't really call you or imply that you were a pedophile, and was probably just trying to answer your question as professionally as possible. It's good that you posted this on your blog though - the more people who see this the better. You might want to consider posting something to the forums on http://www.webhostingtalk.com/ - there's lots of webmasters (and probably vB users to boot) that hang out there that ought to be aware that Jelsoft reserves the right to revoke their license if they don't like the content of their customers' sites. The more vB customers that hear about this nonsense, the better.
My big concern is this: "We reserve the right to determine what kind of sites we want our name and software associated with - and we will not allow our software to be used for child porn and abuse. If this is a potential concern for you, then you should consider other alternatives."
That's funny, because on their purchase page, all it says is that you have to comply with the license agreement, which says nothing at all about their right to determine what kind of sites they want their name and software associated with. Not a word. I guess you find out about the 'moral crusader' clause *after* you give them the sometimes-maybe-refundable $160. I'm really thinking this is the point where HongFire either needs to drag them into small claims court, or lawyer up and *really* make them wish they hadn't decided to play Thomas Bowdler with somebody else's website. - sardion2000, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7Define:slander
# words falsely spoken that damage the reputation of another
# aspersion: an abusive attack on a person's character or good name
# defame: charge falsely or with malicious intent; attack the good name and reputation of someone; "The journalists have defamed me!" "The article in the paper sullied my reputation"
Calling someone a pedophile seems like slander to me if it was on the public forums. If it was in a private email, then I don't know about that. - aeqea, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7Wtf! I was going to purchase vbulliten this week for 3 site of mine, however no loli sites. I think I will think about it longer.
- keiths, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7What I don't get about this is if it's so illegal to have these files then why wasn't ThePlanet informed (being the hosting provider) and why wasn't the account totally disabled?
Everything about this just seems backwards - WiBu, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8I used to be a fan and happy promoter of vBulletin but after a few incidents with their support (they were plain rude most of the time) about various things I've ditched them and I'm now using BBPress or Vanilla (free and open-source) for my forum needs and they are more than capable and a joy to use.
- desqjockey, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7Submit this to EFF (electronic frontier foundation), they take on these kinds of cases or send them out to attorneys... attorneys like me actually. EFF was the one that challenged the anti-simulated child porn law on constitutional grounds.
The worst part is that this guy rep'ing Jellsoft complains most about "depraved comments" and asks them to censor speech on the forum.
>I believe that having seen the content of your forum and some of the depraved comments that obviously it is time for you to moderate the forum
>to avoid a likely revocation of license.
Howard G. Spinks has landed Jellsoft in a world of hurt: go forward and lose business because no one wants to have to censor speech on their forum to some nebulous, unannounced standard. Back down and be accused of being an instrumentality in the spread of child porn by the Christian right, making them a target for any crusading AUSA who wants to pressure these kinds of software makers to censor for the government ( a tactic which the Chinese have used to great effect internally). - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7Since when does any sane company contract out its licensing decisions? Do you really want to have your company sullied by someone else's arbitrary and capricious sense of morality? If you want someone to investigate and report fine.... but the decision is ultimately up to you. And the fact that the site is asking people to not hold jelsoft responsible when its their licenses and their product and they delegated their responsibility is plain BS
- forbiscuit, on 10/12/2007, -4/+11The inability to distinguish fantasy (e.g. lolicon art) from reality (e.g. child abuse), which I think is related to schizophrenia, is a mental condition that seems to be shared by a lot of people like Mr. Spinks. It's a shame they have to demonstrate it by lashing out at others rather than getting the help they obviously need.
Of course, I could assume the best of Mr. Spinks and company and say that they're just covering their own butts from people higher up the food chain who have that peculiar condition. Covering your legal butt is a sad truth in the world today. - acceptab1euname, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7It's not at all a tangent from the topic.
This may really suck for HongFire, but think about the possibly thousands of vB license holders out there, who just now discovered that they could lose their paid-for software if somebody at PR objects to some content on their website and they don't comply with demands to edit it out. Oh, and if they resist PR will send a DMCA takedown notice to their ISP, which may result in their entire website going offline. Worse yet, that they'll lose their software by violating an AUP that does not appear to exist. Further still, that they will be accused of "inciting spam" and told that if they want to have "ANY chance at all of resolving this" they must somehow stop it people trying to ask questions, should they dare to bring up the issue in a public forum.
It seems to me that posting links to companies and software solutions that do NOT do these things is perfectly on-topic. If I had paid for a vB license and found out about all this, I'd be looking for a different company to do business with in the future. - ManagerJosh, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7All the emails are available on HongFire's site.
http://www.hongfire.com/vbulletin.txt
Howard is a real lawyer, I might add.
I've examined the emails myself the discussion went through official Jelsoft channels, not through private emails or anything. It went through the ticket system. - acceptab1euname, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7@MercenaryM14: Ignorance of the law isn't a defense. That having been said, it's hard to abide by the rules when you can't find them. I was unable to locate the "Acceptable Use Policy" that Mister Spinks keeps referring to. I clicked through the site manually and used Google to search, and found nothing about Jelsoft's vBulletin "Acceptable Use Policy". As far as I can tell, there isn't one.
You'll also notice in the e-mails back and forth to hongfire that the "Acceptable Use Policy" is used as a reason for terminating the license, but at no point was the policy actually cited. No links, no quotes of what exactly they did wrong...nothing. And yet if they didn't remove the objectionable content and comply with PR's demands, they would have their license revoked under the "AUP" that at least I can't seem to find and a DMCA takedown notice sent off to their ISP because now they're "pirating" software.
I believe the word for this situation is "Kafkaesque".
Oh, and now a "Steve Machol" from Customer Support is demanding that HF "stop inciting people to spam our support forums and support system." Because you know, it's all over that site, those incitements. Might not have anything to do with vB license holders concerned about getting their license yanked on somebody's whim. They're being really nice about it, too. It's so great to see exactly how "supportive" of their customers Jelsoft is. - iAlex, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7Hell, I was going to buy vBulletin, but I might not.
"Steve Machol
Dec 22nd '06 06:20pm
If you want to have ANY chance at all of resolving this then you better
stop inciting people to spam our support forums and support system. This
is your ONLY warning.
Steve Machol
Customer Support Manager, vBulletin
vBulletin Home Page
http://www.vbulletin.com/
vBulletin Community Forums
http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/"
CRAPPY IDIOT LICENSE! IT HATE THAT *****! - Fett101, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7"Cry foul if you wish but this is the first time I have encountered this sort of material and I am going to call in some favours from my contacts who I am sure will be very interested in taking a closer look."
Welcome to the internet. What took you so long to notice? -
Show 51 - 100 of 267 discussions
Check out the new & improved 
© Digg Inc. 2009
— Content created and posted by Digg users is