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Pakt CMS prize awarded; Joomla edges out Drupal in a tie-breaker

packtpub.com — The final result saw a tie for first place between Joomla! and Drupal. A fourth independent judge was be brought in. This crucial vote ended up with Joomla! triumphing over Drupal by one point.

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  • robertDouglass, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8Man, my record for typo-s is bad these days! It is Packt Publishing, not Pakt, as in the title. Sorry peeps.
    • goldeneagle, on 10/12/2007, -5/+0@ robertdouglass (lullabot of Drupal), what was your thinking going to the Joomla! forums — your first and only post — and posting links to this sour grapes digg full of Drupals?

      I don't think that's particularly clever. I'm sure the Joomla! team wouldn't consider it very professional.

      Kinda lame really.
    • eaton, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Robert posted this to Digg in good faith; both in private conversations and over on the Drupal side of the fence he's made clear that he feels both communities offer really valuable open source product. :-) It's sad that there's a lot of bickering in this thread, but please don't knock Robert for promoting the fact that two top-notch CMS packages finished in a dead heat. It's a great day for OSS.
    • goldeneagle, on 10/12/2007, -4/+0@ eaton, sure you can defend Lullabot for what was an inappropriate action. You two seem to be on some Drupal / IBM love fest. http://www.digg.com/users/eaton/dugg. Not that you could be biased either? Understandable I guess. Next time Lullabot think about it before your turn up at someone elses party, trying to get everyone to notice the second place getter. Regarding your "special relationship" with IBM, what comes to mind is Blair and Bush and their special relationship or in fact less of a metaphor Miro's relationship with Mambo. Be careful with what you do guys, be very, very careful.
    • robertDouglass, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3what was your thinking going to the Joomla! forums — your first and only post — and posting links to this sour grapes digg full of Drupals?

      @goldeneagle: where are the sour grapes? I'm happy for Joomla!, and Drupal and Plone. I don't use Joomla! personally, but I'm a fervent supporter of all open source projects, and so is Lullabot. If other Diggers turned the post into sour grapes, that's their business. I didn't do it, so please don't accuse me of doing so.
    • AmyStephen, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@GoldenEagle -

      Who are you? Robert did nothing wrong by posting in the Joomla! forums. He is not our enemy and he and any other Drupal fan are welcome there any time.

      Perhaps you might want to identify yourself so that people know who you are and they understand you do speak for all of the Joomla! folks. You sure don't speak for me. What is this fuss all about? What is the prize you are hoping to win? Unclench. Breath. Relax.

      These are all great open source projects and we should be patting each other on the back. I am honestly shocked by the negativity portrayed by some people in this thread from both sides. It is shameful and small minded. Let's raise the bar a bit, shall we?
    • gr8one, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I think you're all a bunch of whiney little girls. Why don't you all sign on to BF2, joing a knife and pistol server and settle this there so we all don't have to read your 8th grade level petty crap.

      However I have a ton of respect for both the Drupal and Joomla teams. They are both great products, and the web world is a better place because of them.
    • jonmacgregor, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0@ everybody. Actually goldeneagle might have been a bit harsh but I have to agree that lullabot was not doing himself or Drupal any favours by hijacking Joomla's day of glory. There has been a trend on DIGG whereever Joomla! reports something positive the Drupal guys turn up and diss it.

      My earnest view is that Drupal could do well to encourage its community to stop with this nonsense. Joomla! has done extremely well. It survived a vicious split and the hard work of the team and enthusiasm of its community has been rewarded with three (possibly four) awards in the space of 12 months.

      And @ lullabot I agree with the view that posting on Joomla's forums indeed appears disingenuous and I can understand people feeling upset. In fact, I'm surprised it wasn't reported as self-promotion.

      If you don't use it (Joomla!) ... you don't belong over there (on the forums) at the moment because what you've contributed is not productive or clever.

  • klurt, on 10/12/2007, -15/+6Drupal should have won. Drupal is amazing.
    Joomla is an infant barely able to stand up.

    • vestige, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Actual Mambo (the project Joomla split from for various reasons) and Drupal were both started around 2000. Also when it comes to internationalization, Joomla 1.5 is well ahead of the game.
    • igeoffi, on 10/12/2007, -7/+7Drupal is much more powerful and more useful for advanced users.
      Joomla! is much easier and simpler for more novice users.
    • iluvhatemail, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6"Drupal is much more powerful and more useful for advanced users.
      Joomla! is much easier and simpler for more novice users."

      Based on what evidence? Just because Drupal doesnt have a nice control panel that makes it more advanced? Both are equally good, that's why it was a tie. 1 person changed that result, not many.
      • darekw, on 07/02/2008, -0/+0Joomla has a smaller learning curve for the first-time user out of the box-the person who has to update the website.

        Drupal doesn't look as impressive out of the box, but is much better for developers. It can be easy for the first-time user, but first it has to be set up by the advanced one.
    • adam.skinner, on 10/12/2007, -8/+5I concur. Drupal is a much nicer system than Mambo/Joomla.
    • goldeneagle, on 10/12/2007, -4/+7What a bunch of infants. The Joomla team has often praised Drupal. They don't go around bagging it.

      I think the consensus of lame criticisms demonstrates just how immature many of the Drupal community can be.

      Come on guys grow up and smell the roses this is an open source award which was independently judged. You do yourselves no favours being such sour losers.

      As for Joomla! well done. Once again.
    • robertDouglass, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6@goldeneagle: I agree that this is no occasion for sour grapes! Do note, however, that you're unlikely to see anybody from the core Drupal team badmouthing other OS projects. My experience with the core team is that they are determined to learn from them instead. This goes way beyond the code, too, and includes how the projects are structured, their foundations, how the communities are organized, licensing, marketing and so forth.
    • vdxc, on 09/29/2008, -4/+2Why do (most) Drupal users say how bad Joomla! is yet (most) Joomla! users only comment how good Drupal is? Even the development teams get along very well, it's just Drupal users don't seem to like Joomla!.

      I'm a Joomla! user and think it's a great CMS, but Drupal is equally stunning and I do also use it.

      Also, as a note, the legal and correct name is Joomla! (with exclamation).
    • idonthack, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2"Why do (most) Drupal users say how bad Joomla! is yet (most) Joomla! users only comment how good Drupal is?"
      It's cause once you really know how to use Drupal, you see how everything else is amazingly inferior :P
      Just kidding. I use Drupal and Joomla! kicks ass.
    • igeoffi, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1""Drupal is much more powerful and more useful for advanced users.
      Joomla! is much easier and simpler for more novice users."

      Based on what evidence? Just because Drupal doesnt have a nice control panel that makes it more advanced? Both are equally good, that's why it was a tie. 1 person changed that result, not many."
      Based on articles I read. I never said one was better than the other. Each CMS has their own strength and weakness.
  • robertDouglass, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Plone came in 3rd.
  • alexisb, on 10/12/2007, -8/+12We drupalers know Drupal is the best CMS around. The thing is that Joomla is easier to grasp at first, but not so powerful on the long run, and that's why more people uses it.

    Long live Drupal!
    • gaoshan, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6As someone who has used neither CMS, how, specifically (and I really mean "specifically". I have extensive PHP/MySQL experience... I just do my own programming and don't use frameworks very much), is Drupal better than Joomla? I see lots of "Drupal is better for advanced users" but no one ever explains why. Please enlighten me.
    • melondinnye, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0Just try to add some functionality with development and you'll see... I tried both, and chose Drupal.
  • elkuku, on 10/12/2007, -6/+5oh please, don't be jealous...
  • macrebel, on 10/12/2007, -5/+6I find it interesting that Drupal was beat out. Obviously the judges are not developers or they would see that Drupal is by far more extensible and superior. Granted, Joomla is easier out of the box but it is far more difficult to customize and has so much antiquated code bloat that it is nearly impossible to validate.

    Props though for Packt bringing attention to the CMS world of OS software.
    • igeoffi, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7"impossible to validate"
      Really?
      http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fdemo.joomla.org%2Fdemo15%2F
    • londubh, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1The vote was based on popularity not on which one was best. I know Plone asked people to vote for them.

      I could not figure out Drupal so I gave up on it. I was able to figure out e107 fairly easily though it does have some limitations. I'm starting to play with Joomla and it so far it's easier to figure out than Drupal. I prefer Plone to all of the PHP based CMSes. I was able to figure it out fairly easily. I'm looking for a good PHP based one simply because most web host providers don't have decent Python support. Right now it's between e107 and Joomla.
    • shakin, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Most anti-Joomla rhetoric from Drupal users is FUD. Both are very good systems. Joomla is easier to use if you want to slap together a site very quickly and still get great results. Drupal is better if you have very complex needs because it's easier to work with if you're a developer.

      Both systems have their place and both fill their respective needs very well.
  • skyjuice, on 10/12/2007, -8/+7what should i say about Joomla

    GREAT SOFTWARE
    GREAT SUPPORT
    GREAT COMMUNITY

    OWNAGE :D

    and congrats to drupal 2nd and plone 3rd. :)

    Congratulations All
  • AndreGerber, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5The only thing about Joomla that irritates me is the fact that there aren't many GOOD templates which are free. i am sorry. I should probably pay for them, but my wallet just wont allow it.
    • trylleklovn, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I don't know anything abou joomla, but shouldn't one make his own templates?

      I mean.. What is the point of a website that consists of 1 part prebuilt cms and 1 part prebuilt template.. It must prove amazing substance of information to attract any users?
      • darekw, on 07/02/2008, -0/+0Most people don't visit websites based on their code or design. Sorry to inform you.
  • robertDouglass, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Oh, and in case someone comes asking "What is Joomla? What is Drupal? What is a CMS?" (which has been the case every other time I post a story about one of them), here are the links:
    http://www.joomla.org/
    http://www.drupal.org/
    http://plone.org/
    • happyfappy, on 10/12/2007, -7/+1Any idea what computer language Joomla was written in?
    • robertDouglass, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Joomla and Drupal are PHP, Plone is built on Zope which is written in Python.
  • bhousel, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4This was just a popularity web vote. I'd be more interested in reading a review where someone actually tried out the products, compared the features, ran some benchmarks..

    Buried as lame..
  • kevin45, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2I prefer to build my own.
    • happyfappy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Me too, in general. I can envision some circumstances in which a canned CMS would be the way to go, but in my experience it's almost always better to roll your own.
    • robertDouglass, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2The fun part about developing for either of these frameworks is you can pour all your creative energies into extending it instead of building the base. It is interesting talking amongst the top Drupal developers; many of them did develop their own before joining Drupal, but the act of "rolling ones own" very often teaches you to recognize the quality in projects like Drupal. At the end of the day, you (a single developer), just have a hard time competing with a coding effort that has been going on for six years and involves 90,000 people and many large companies.
    • kevin45, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Well look at some of the comments... where these things fail is not just lack of templates; but the lack of most to know how to effectively integrate a CMS into an existing or created layout.
    • Phearce, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2RTA. Roll-your-own is sometimes the best answer, but Packt was trying to focus attention on open source CMS.
    • crizo, on 03/24/2008, -0/+1Yes, me too. And I'll start as soon as I'm finished with my new and improved version of the wheel.

      Seriously... It takes me a few hours to theme and add content to a Drupal site. How long would it take to build a new CMS? At one point I spent a few weeks on one that did what I wanted and then discovered Drupal. This was after spending several weeks with Mambo, Joomla and XOOPS.
  • xamox, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5Was this based on drupal 4.7? Cause 5.0 is rolling out soon with AJAX support, way better default theme, jQuery built in, etc.

    Drupal will also start releasing distributions soon. I know if you did a base install of each drupal seems very basic but in reality is very powerful, it just takes a lot of customization and has a bigger learning curve.

    Big Names that use drupal are:
    This Week in Tech
    MTV UK.
    Songbird
    NATO
    NASA
    Tim Berners Lee (Founder of the World Wide Web, Director of W3C).
    • UnConeD, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4"with AJAX support". What is that supposed to mean?

      Absolutely 0 new AJAX features have been added to Drupal 5.0 that were not there in Drupal 4.7. And that is using a loose definition of "AJAX" where we don't restrict ourselves to XML. The only thing that is new is a cleaner presentation which just comes down to good old DHTML and CSS.

      AJAX is not a magic catch-all for "Web 2.0"-ish JavaScript features. Please stop using it that way.
  • Dracos, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2It's a sad state in CMS land when, in 2006, a contest like this happens and the word "nuke" appears SEVEN times among the nominee names.

    Francisco Burzi should be proud... if he's not too busy still violating the GPL.
    • ptemple, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I have to agree that whilst the naive *nuke CMS were exciting when first launched, the web landscape is now riddled with cracked and spammed *nuke installations. I tried upgrading my PHPNuke sites to Postnuke and the hours I poured into one renewable energy site (http://www.futureenergies.com), for which no-one gets paid, have been repaid by the net community by the database been repeatedly vandalised and destroyed. Much like many of the other cash-poor time-poor hobby sites attracted by *nuke. It's enough to kill the spirit of even the most charitable-minded person.

      Phillip.
    • goldeneagle, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0You should check out his "integration" of the joomla installer in a new version of the nuke. One wonders if he's selling that too from his Columbian bunker.
  • ramaz, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1SOOP portal (www.soopportal) is an ASP-based open source CMS that I, a non-programmer, have used with good results in a couple of projects. Since I'm not a programmer (just learning the basics here and there), the support available through the SOOP community was crucial.

    Where I work now we have only a Red Hat server, so I tried to find a php-based equivalent to SOOP. In particular I spent time trying out XOOPS, Mambo, and Joomla!. None of these seemed to have the features I was used to having in SOOP, and I was having a more and more frustrating time just trying to get things to work. Mambo, in particular, has some functions (pop-down menus) that don't work correctly in IE and some other functions (menu admin functions) that do not work correctly in Firefox.

    Just wondered if anyone else in this discussion is familar with SOOP. Would it be considered "on the other side of the tracks" since it's written in ASP?
  • frankzzsword, on 10/12/2007, -5/+1well joomla is for noobs should have come 2nd or 3rd
    drupal is for experts must have come 1st

    if u want how everything works, in drupal and joomla u should try this
    http://www2.revieware.net:82/node/14
    http://buytaert.net/drupal-vs-joomla-performance
    http://forum.joomla.org/index.php?topic=4364.msg35306
    • vdxc, on 09/29/2008, -0/+2You're sources are all very accurate - I mean, two Drupal powered sites and the official Joomla! forum.

      The Joomla! dev and Drupal dev have both agreed that each others CMS' are equally great - why can't the community accept it as well?
    • igeoffi, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0One of your souces (http://www2.revieware.net:82/node/14) isn't very accurate.
      From that source:
      "Joomla is suppose to be a static kind of CMS which cannot be modified to user needs."
      Wrong. I've seen a pretty good MySpace clone running on Joomla!

      "The SkinsModulesComponents are hard to integrate and costs much more than that of Drupal. "
      Wrong. Skins are uploaded and then you activate it. Same goes for modules/components, you just have to customize it to your needs.

      "User Management is probably one of the worst I have ever seen. "
      Default User Management isn't the greatest but the Community Builder extensions fixes that.

      So I'd have to say based off the inaccuracy of the article in the Joomla! review and the fact that it runs on Drupal, the article is biased.
    • goldeneagle, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0mmm and you should definitely read this: http://alfim.blogspot.com/2006/11/joomla-vs-drupal.html
  • ramaz, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2noobs R us :)
  • skyjuice, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4huh no need to flame we are in same root OPENSOURCE just support each other ok guys
  • killdashnine, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1This is all fairly interesting. I've used most of these myself, but as a web developer it's good to keep perspective that they're best used for non-corporate and amateur websites where the webmaster has little to no experience with development.

    That being the case, I've found Joomla to be pretty cool and the others are usable. What's interesting is that I got involved with a project using Joomla. The only gripe I had was that free templates were hard to find. I really think that these CMSs would be best served by going to a WordPress-like model of templating which seemed to be a hell of a lot easier. Wrapper the CSS and you're pretty much done.
    • UnConeD, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Jeff Eaton wrote a nice article that explains why there are many more WordPress templates available:
      http://jeff.viapositiva.net/archives/2005/11/on_the_complexi.html

      But it comes down to WordPress being limited to blogs. Aside from the graphical window dressing, every WordPress site is still the same. Unless the webmaster has done significant hacking themselves, WP templates tend to not support third-party plug-ins at all.

      A Drupal theme needs to support varying levels of navigation, various regions to place content (which may all be turned on or off at will), different types of content (blogs, forums, polls, articles, files, ...) and much more.
  • AmyStephen, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I just celebrated my first year working with open source software. Joomla! was my first crush. The J! community is great. People are enthusiastic and dedicated to providing free as in beer and free as in liberty web technology for the people of the world. I *still* stand in awe of the developers, the core team and the working group volunteers who freely offer their professional skill and time. But, we are far from perfect!

    I have not used Drupal but I hope to find time to explore it, one day. I hear that it has a great ACL and a great community, too. I also understand Drupal excels with social networking applications. I am most jealous of Drupal's relationship with IBM, though. Wow! Truth be told, having a good and strong working relationship with IBM is going to prove to be far more important than a couple of awards, not matter how prestigious and exciting! (And, I have to admit, it is exciting for us!)

    Perhaps one day Drupal and Joomla! will become the Reese's Peanut Butter Cup of the Open Source CMS world. Who knows? But, it is obviously very good that we continue to raise the bar on what our projects accomplish and challenge one another towards greater and greater software. We should also keep an eye open for opportunities to partner for the benefit of developing countries and humanitarian efforts.

    Here's to Open Source breaking down the stronghold a few IT giants had on the market and this new rush of innovation we all benefit from!
    • jonmacgregor, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Amy, you are such a great evangelist. Drupal could do with your help. Particularly before they fall down this big hole http://buytaert.net/drupal-distributions and here http://blogs.alfresco.com/asay/2006/10/30/forks-vs-distributions/ Does look similar, doesn't it?

      If you read between the lines, and I know you are smart enough to work this out, the community doesn't figure in this type of thinking. This is a tipping point to corporate oblivion. The good thing is the J! folk realised this when one slippery snake tried to hogtie their project some 12 months ago.

      Let's hope the Drupaleers don't swallow the bait they're being fed. Being part of some touchy-feely relationship with a recognised brand isn't everything, you know.
    • AmyStephen, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Jon - if you would like, please swing by my blog AmyStephen.us sometime . I am interested in hearing your perspectives.

      Today is a celebration for Drupal and Joomla!. I am sincere in my comments and I often wonder if proprietary software companies look at this type of division in the open source ranks and think, "Hey! They'll kill one another off and this will be over soon." I have to say, I see no sense in some of the comments here.

      Or, maybe I am not *religious* enough! But, I see good things in both projects. I started with IBM 25 years ago and know the strength of that organization in application development and rock solid processes. Trust me - Drupal is going to get some leverage from that relationship.

      I admit I don't know Drupal politics *nor* do I want to! I don't even want to know Joomla! politics! But, I do want to wish everyone who is seriously contributing to the open source movement good luck and well wishes.
  • jtms1200, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Having been forced to work with it, Joomla inspires a special kind of hatred in my heart... I find it to be a very poorly written piece of software. Drupal, on the other hand, is clean and easy to modify if needed. Drupal is the superior choice in my opinion.
  • dafragsta, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1My objective opinion is that Drupal supports better integration and customization related to the security of the content and content in general is managed better. That said, Drupal suffers from Nuke-itus. Every Drupal site has certain elements that MUST be in one place or another relative to every other Drupal site. Joomla does not suffer from that. In fact, Joomla is quite layout agnostic for the most part. Joomla 1.5 will be even more so once they lose some of the inherent table based layouts that were embedded in some of the code.

    Drupal has better security and organization. Joomla supports more creative, less cookie-cutter looking websites.

    I've recently opted to go another way and roll my own system in Rails. I'm still working on it, but Rails has given me enough of a head start on the grunt work that I feel that I'm not reinventing the wheel so much as making a really cool set of wheels.
    • eaton, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Interesting. I've definitely found that Drupal is set up with cookie-cutter defaults, and the majority of free third-party themes out there follow the header-sidebars-content-footer model. None of that is set in stone, however; it's just that themes that take a wildly different approach rarely make it into the wild, and stay in the realm of custom sites.

      That said, Joomla! really does appear to have a thriving skinning/theming community. It's a great example.
  • idig, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Hmmm... too bad that that at least 2 of the 4 judges (Scott Goodwin and Lenz Grimmer) were specifically looking for PHP/MySQL CMS products (check Scott's site out and tell me it isn't true: http://www.opensourcecms.com). Plone doesn't use these, but is an amazing product. I would be interested to see the user survey data by itself (hint). My guess is Plone topped the survey charts, because real users don't care about what language was used. Anyway, 3rd place is pretty good considering the biases of the judges.

    Plone is used by:
    eBay
    Nokia
    Lufthansa
    NASA/JPL
    USGS
    and tons of others... see http://plone.org/about/sites
  • icekin, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Why couldn't they just add up the first and second prize amounts, then split them by two?

    Another Drupal vs Joomla vs Wordpress comparison - http://icekin.f2o.org/drupal_vs_the_rest
  • jonmacgregor, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0LOL, Amy. Very cool! Especially LaCuria. Wow!

    here's a Joomla! 1.5 site it's a rockin too:
    http://www.applebottoms.com/

    Jon wonders why people are already making production sites on beta software??? National Lampoon's zine is also using beta.

  • AmyStephen, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Jon - you just like that hot chick on the cover. lol... Yes, LaCuria is exquisite, IMO, and the artist is so young - plus he is a really great person, too.

    Here's three more drop-dead gorgeous Joomla! site I saw YESTERDAY. People are taking advantage of that rock solid architecture to build genius level designs upon. Great to see such extraordinary sites.

    http://www.infinitimixedmedia.com/
    http://www.bebold.org/
    http://www.abdulsmooth.com/

    +++

    BTW - the Apple Bottoms one is great. I assume it was developed by the same talented Joomla! folks who did the Lampoon mag site. I wish I had a fraction of the talent and brainpower of that team. I wouldn't recommend just anybody go Beta - but - these guys obviously can! Please, stop by my blog sometime, Jon! :-)

    +++

    Now, I will be done. Great job Drupal and Joomla!. I would love to see some extraordinary Drupal sites, as well, if someone wants to share - please do so at AmyStephen.us.
    • leohart, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Actually those sites that you mention are beautiful because of their design, not because of Joomla. These sites use little of Joomla architecture (which based mostly on extendable components and modules). These sites are beautiful because of color and content composition. This can be obtained much faster on other no-frill-only-business content management system. Textpattern, drupal, ...
  • ptdorf, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0yeah, joomla! days are counted but drupal needs some serious enhancements: like automatic allowing one node be nested into another, should be able to read the db and create a default form, that could be hooked for customization....
  • kureselisinma, on 12/24/2007, -0/+0http://www.kuresel-isinma.org http://www.m-s-n.org http://www.globalwarmingvideos.org http://www.biddinglinkdirectory.net
  • kureselisinma, on 08/22/2008, -0/+0http://www.kuresel-isinma.com
  • kureselisinma, on 08/22/2008, -0/+0http://www.kuresel-isinma.com
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