What is Digg?260 Comments
- inactive, on 12/13/2007, -26/+88And yet Apple can get away with bundled applications like Safari, iTunes etc.
- LawnchairLarry, on 12/13/2007, -9/+48It's about time Microsoft starts to make Internet Explorer compliant with internet standards.
- w00tfest99, on 12/13/2007, -18/+54I don't understand this. Apple goes around advertising how much stuff automatically comes with their OS but Windows can't even have a decent CD burning feature because they get sued. Why isn't Opera suing Apple for bundling Safari with their OS?
- tackle, on 12/13/2007, -1/+351. Replace Opera in the title with Firefox
2. ???
3. Profit.
I cannot believe there are so many comments here sayin what Opera did was not right. If Mozilla foundation had been the one who did this, then the fanboys will be going ape-***** over this. - geekchic, on 12/13/2007, -25/+54My questions:
Are PC vendors actually blocked from pre-installing Firefox etc onto Windows based machines?
Remembering that W3C standards are not mandatory, but simply advisory - albeit, very widely followed, how could the EU force Microsoft to follow those recomendations?
Frankly, this sounds a bit like sour-grapes from Opera, and not the sort of thing I would normally expect from them. - inactive, on 12/13/2007, -3/+30W3C validate syntax ONLY. It does NOT decide if your site looks good or if you are a good coder which by the sounds of things you are a complete n00b.
- potifar, on 12/13/2007, -2/+27Also see Håkon Wium Lie's open letter to the Web community regarding the complaint:
http://people.opera.com/howcome/2007/msft/ - 1jaxstate1, on 12/13/2007, -24/+47Are they going to ask Apple to take out Safari, and Linux vendors to take out FireFox?
- Noctem, on 12/13/2007, -3/+25Shhh! Quick everyone, look the other way! Nothing to see here!
- cyberoidx, on 12/13/2007, -5/+23But they do Install Install Norton, dont they? They are sooooooooooo nice. Giving all of us a free Anti-Virus for 30 days.
- jeffsback2223, on 12/13/2007, -1/+17As far as I'm concerned, pre-installed (or any installed) Norton Anti-virus is a virus.
- cyberoidx, on 12/13/2007, -8/+23Please.
Everyone knows how much the EU hates Microsoft. - mrjit, on 12/13/2007, -2/+14No.
- inactive, on 12/13/2007, -3/+15Also when you consider that between firefox and IE 97% of browsers are not "standards compliant", you really have to reconsider what "standards compliance" means.
- sahaqiel, on 12/13/2007, -8/+20I think the main issue is that Safari and Firefox follow standards. Microsoft imposes their own with IE, hence should stop doing it.
- paulbjensen, on 12/13/2007, -6/+17Personally, I'd like it very much if Internet Explorer was completely standards-compliant, and by that I mean it passes the ACID2 test (http://www.webstandards.org/action/acid2/). Note that neither Firefox or Safari on Windows pass the ACID2 test, so it is a bit of a long call to expect MSFT to be legally required to make their browser standards-compliant.
What would be much better would be for those sites who don't like IE to point users to better web browsers. Facebook does it with IE6, I don't see why others could not do the same. - inactive, on 12/13/2007, -5/+16I disagree, Vista has the best built in CD/DVD mastering software available. It is just that you probably only read Digg and the Microsoft hostile blog'o'sphere for your tech news so all you got was super sized BSOD pictures with fanboys saying "$ee Micro$oft $uckz!"
- chrismgtis, on 12/13/2007, -5/+14It doesn't matter. Should anyone else be treated differently? Absolutely not.
- AlexanderBlue, on 12/13/2007, -1/+10Last time I checked my main site with Opera, Firefox, and IE7, everything displays perfectly. In fact, it even renders (albeit differently) and is completely usable on my Blackberry (using both their browser and Opera Mini). If your site doesn't display properly in Opera, it's because you messed up.
- njaguar, on 12/13/2007, -1/+10I also don't see Apple having open development and standards for their ipods.
- Numfar28, on 12/13/2007, -2/+11Last I checked, Safari on Windows did pass the test...and Safari on Mac did since Safari 2 IIRC.
- commentbot, on 12/13/2007, -1/+10I can code a page that validates but that breaks in any browser. Learn web development before talking.
- fafaforza, on 12/13/2007, -3/+11They have over 90% market share of OSes installed on Apple hardware.
- Numfar28, on 12/13/2007, -2/+10The marketshare wouldn't be that big a deal if they just supported standards the way Firefox, Opera and Safari do. That's where the problem lies.
- portorikan, on 12/13/2007, -4/+12Having actually read the piece, their issue seems to be mostly with the lack of web standard compliance by IE AND the fact that it's integrated way to much into the OS.
Maybe if two or 3 browsers were included in a Windows install they wouldn't mind and informing users they actually have an option. Most IE users actually think that IE IS the internet. Pretty funny stuff.
With regards to comments that others made, Apple's Safari isn't integrated into search and browsing like on Windows where even if you have another browser set up as default, IE will still open OR your links won't work in certain programs. - darwinwin, on 06/18/2009, -3/+11So why does Opera have problems if IE isn't standard-compliant. Opera hasn't taken up any responsibilities to tell the industry which browser is complaint or not ...
- zigamorph, on 12/13/2007, -2/+10Every PC that I buy has this horrible RealPlayer on it. What are you taling about 3rd party video playback.
- HonoredMule, on 12/13/2007, -0/+7No it isn't. IE7 is still the only browser that can't use simple, clean CSS-based menus because of incorrect :hover interpretation, still fails the Acid2 test, and there are other, meaningful, small standards inconsistencies as well.
- AlexanderBlue, on 12/13/2007, -1/+8Excuse me???!!?!??!?! Check your sources. IE7 is a big step in the right direction, but still fails far short of implementing all of the W3C standards in XHTML, CSS, the JavaScript DOM, and even XHTML Characters that ARE supported by Opera and Firefox. Do you have ANY idea how much easier and better web development would be if IE, with their market share, were to simply support everything available in Opera and Firefox?!
Quite simply, Microsoft IE is holding the web back. - inactive, on 12/13/2007, -8/+15open standards for the web are not a concern for a PC vendor. .
Opera's complaint isn't about forcing W3C standards on MS , but about MS using its dominant position to force propriety 'standards' on everybody,which a)causes everybody to be locked into windows b)doesn't let the web spread 'beyond' IE. - SteveMax, on 12/13/2007, -0/+7No, because the situation is completely different. Opera doesn't force any proprietary standards, and they don't force-bundle their browser with any OS (it is bundled via separate agreements with the various vendors, such as Nintendo and Nokia).
- yonah, on 12/13/2007, -3/+10Safari and iTunes, just like most of the apps that comes with OS X can be deleted. MS IE can´t.
- Frostek, on 12/13/2007, -3/+10I always wonder if the people who think the EU "hates" MS are either MS-shareholders, or think it's somehow anti-American that the EU should ensure that companies abide by its laws when operating within its territories.
Otherwise, why would anybody really care? In what way would this affect you otherwise? - Andytom, on 12/13/2007, -3/+10The current nightly Firefox builds pass the ACID2 test
- andycr512, on 12/13/2007, -0/+7FF Minefield: http://i15.tinypic.com/6qaqdkm.png
IE7: http://dnite.files.wordpress.com/2006/12/ie_7.png
Fail. - jackflap, on 12/13/2007, -3/+9One of the biggest issues with the bundling of IE with Windows, is its extremely tight integration in the OS. Vulnerabilities are often exploited within IE which affect your whole Windows installation, unlike a completely standalone browser which has less access to the internal workings of the OS itself.
Also, have you ever tried using Firefox on Microsoft's Exchange web-based interface? It's unusable. They've completely thrown out the industry standards and implemented their own internal IE/Exchange standards forcing people to use IE if they want to access their email via the web. This is anti-competitive behaviour.
Blatantly ignoring standards so that people are forced to buy software that the don't need isn't cool. - djAnakin, on 12/13/2007, -0/+6Until I started informing my wife she used to actually use the phrase "When I go on Verizon..." in place of "When I go online...".
- garcimore, on 12/13/2007, -1/+7Dude! Opera was ported to the XO laptop about one year ago http://my.opera.com/desktopteam/blog/show.dml/7043 ...
Why do you think the XO laptop uses Firefox and ships with more ram than the original design ?
tsssk. Remember that Opera also works on Nintendo DS which has a 66 Mhz and a 33 Mhz CPU and very little ram, the XO laptop is much more powerful than that, yet they use exactly the same core engine and support many open web standards. - mithrasinvictus, on 12/13/2007, -4/+10RTFA! Opera is complaining about MS's refusal to support web standards. This is NOT about bundled applications.
- commentbot, on 12/13/2007, -2/+8Ignorance at its best. First Opera gathers the best developers around in this industry, many of them are on the board of the W3C, so "idiots", no.
Then, yes, Microsoft is stopping OEMs from bundling Opera, as a matter of fact, Microsoft dictates its rules to keep away any competitors and OEMs have a hard time even offering Linux with their hardware. Otherwise, they would bundle either Firefox or Opera and obviously, OpenOffice.org, it would make their products more attractive.
You have to convince me that Firefox is better than Opera. Have you at least tried Opera? I use Firefox at work because I don't have choice. At home I use Opera, it's got many more features, it's much lighter and faster. There's no faster and more feature-rich Internet suite than Opera. And no, I don't have time to search for Firefox extensions. Either they bundle their features or I won't use it.
Opera is THE most full-featured Internet applicatiions, heck, I even chat with my Gtalk contacts in Opera
http://googlesystem.blogspot.com/2006/05/10-featur ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Features_of_the_Opera ...
If there's one company that has always fought for web standards, it's Opera. Don't blame Opera if you're not a good developer. Learn CSS, follow the specifications and it'll work in Opera. No secret.
http://www.amazon.com/CSS-Definitive-Guide-Eric-Me ...
http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/learning
http://www.w3schools.com/css/default.asp
Learn CSS, try Opera, then we talk. - chrismgtis, on 12/13/2007, -4/+9That made no sense. This is the kind of thinking that has people thinking Microsoft has some obligation to do what everyone wants with their own product.
- johnnysaucepn, on 12/13/2007, -0/+5ACID2 isn't a standard, it's a test for ensuring that all browsers successfully adhere to the standard. When the ACID tests are created, they are made to deliberately fail in all browsers, to highlight what needs fixed.
Rules are in place for gracefully handling non-adherence to standards, no browsers should be relying on bugs in order to work correctly. - MasterChi, on 12/13/2007, -4/+9The reason why Opera doesn't sue Apple is not because of market share.....its because you can fully uninstall Safari if you want. If you go through Add/Remove Programs and uninstall Internet Explorer you can still browse to the internet and in essence use IE by just typing a web address in Explorer. There is no way in Windows to completely uninstall Internet Explorer since it is built into Explorer.exe. Microsoft.com doesn't even post a way to fully uninstall just the way i described above but please try it then open explorer and type in a web address and watch the greatness of IE including the options showing up.......but wait didn't you just uninstall it.
I agree with Opera on this. They can package the OS with IE, i don't care, but they need to have a way to uninstall it successfully. - SteveMax, on 12/13/2007, -0/+5It IS totally different.
Microsoft offers the computer manufacturers two options, either bundle Windows+IE or leave Windows out. For most people, not having Windows is not an option, so the manufacturer has to put IE on the PCs.
Opera offers their browser to whatever manufacturer who wants to bundle it. The manufacturer can chose between having its OS and software plus Opera, or just their OS and software.
See? Opera doesn't force their browser along with something else. If Microsoft allowed Windows with or without IE, and IE in any OS, then the only difference would be the standards' argument (which isn't so weak, if you consider that a non-standards compatible browser with almost 80% market share basically forces smaller players out of the market). - PeppermintPig, on 12/13/2007, -0/+5Yet those are the kind of people who don't really mind what they're using. Those who do mind can freely download a competing browser.
- njaguar, on 12/13/2007, -4/+9You must be a lousy coder if that's the case. Firefox tends to be the browser that renders things wrong, even when Opera/IE get it right.
- NJank, on 12/13/2007, -0/+5"At one point in time..."
Right, and now that they do, things are different. That's how it's supposed to be. monopolistic abuse gets regulated in an attempt to curtail it. - inactive, on 12/13/2007, -7/+12It's easy on Windows too, you just download one single installation file from opera.com or getfirefox.com and run it.
- kris33, on 12/13/2007, -3/+8Better than Firefox even.
- Frostek, on 12/13/2007, -1/+6Perhaps because there's no dev kit yet? Don't be so damn literal.
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