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Mozilla officially accepts Microsoft's Offer

news.zdnet.co.uk — "Mozilla has accepted Microsoft's offer of help towards ensuring interoperability between Firefox and the upcoming Vista operating system." If you can't beat em, join em

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  • cybercat, on 10/12/2007, -53/+21Microsoft may have won the war but they never got what they wanted from it. Now Microsoft needs to work with the Mozilla people just because there is a lack of trust in Microsoft products, and Firefox is making windows more secure. So the better windows works with Firefox the less of chance people will go to Linux because Firefox is keeping windows users "safe enough". While IE7 is said to be more secure and follow the standards more, there is still the old stuff that Microsoft can't take out, and it will still be used as an Intranet Application executer. IE7 will work fine for normal pages, but for putting all the effort for a full blown browser war, I don't think Microsoft has a real reason to kill Firefox.
    • hehe, on 10/12/2007, -41/+14I smell the beginning of the end for Microsoft's attempts at complete dominance for all Windows users. Alternatives are better than ever...
    • plasmatic, on 10/12/2007, -18/+74Mozilla is the one who needs the help? Shouldn't it be the other way around?
    • mfratt, on 10/12/2007, -2/+45I think this is a very good move on both the parts of Microsoft and Mozilla. If nothing else, it will imporve Microsoft's image among the more technical crowd. Some expected Microsoft to make Firefox less operable on Vista, and they have done just the opposite. No matter what their reasons for doing so, kudos to Microsoft, and thats not something you'll hear me say a lot. As for Mozilla, cooperation with MS is a big plus. It means people will be more motivated to use Firefox if it supported by Microsoft.
    • Mike.ohara, on 10/12/2007, -34/+4Hmm now Im not sure I trust Mozilla...

      To me this is colaberation with the enemy. How can I trust that Mozilla will not be comprimised by microsofts Bullying and Ideals? Its very unlikley that firefox will survive this.. and I wont be around to endorse it

    • Haplo, on 10/12/2007, -11/+18"Mozilla is the one who needs the help?"

      You really think that Mozilla code is perfect? Have a look at how history is stored (It's called Mork: the format was a brain fart of someone who probably shouldn't be programming, ever).
    • Lifestory, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9was there a mentioned about war in regards to this whole event? try not to hype up on something that isn't there.

      it's a cooperation to help ensure interoperability, which i believe is what community needs badly to provide good content and function to a wider target audience.
    • szelij, on 10/12/2007, -1/+14I often wonder about Microsoft. They don't make money off Internet Explorer do they?

      Then as a businessman, it's perfectly logical to let outsiders develop an web-brower for you FREE OF CHARGE thats constantly updated...i mean really, why bother with things that don't make you money?!
    • radiofrequency, on 10/12/2007, -8/+11"While IE7 is said to be more secure and follow the standards more"

      Someone this clueless can only be getting a paycheck from Microsoft.
    • GMorgan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9Simple, portability. If everyone uses IE7 then Windows has a monopoly on the OS by default since IE7 doesn't work natively elsewhere. If everyone starts using Firefox then it makes it easier to switch to OSX or Linux.

      MS are doing this for the PR but secretly they'd like to see Firefox die.

      Or maybe its an indication of a potential move away from the OS market and into a different one. Given VM's, web apps and app houses developing specifically for portability it will soon be the case that the OS will be irrelevant for all but a few specialist areas. MS must surely try to make other areas their focus but the question is when.
    • kamilmarkowicz, on 10/12/2007, -10/+4OMG, those anti-Linux conspiracy theorist are so funny. Microsoft and Mozilla "collaborating to detroy Linux", lol. Get over it - no one cares about you. Linux is *not* a threat to desktop Windows, nor will it be in the near future. Get a life. And those people saying:
      "Hmm now Im not sure I trust Mozilla... To me this is colaberation with the enemy. How can I trust that Mozilla will not be comprimised by microsofts Bullying and Ideals? Its very unlikley that firefox will survive this.. and I wont be around to endorse it" - NO COMMENT!
    • gspeed, on 10/12/2007, -4/+3can we say "trojan horse"?
  • dtrinh, on 10/12/2007, -2/+46Its honestly the smartest decision for Microsoft.

    They can't really buy Mozilla (knock on wood) - but, to be quite honest, ffx has been regarded for quite some time as the much better browser. Heck, even some PC hardware suppliers distribute Firefox as a default browser. There's no real reason for Microsoft _not_ to work with Mozilla.

    In the end, it just gives the end user an even better browser to use.
    • LouisC, on 10/12/2007, -14/+6Or MS ends up messing it all up.
    • Scruffydan, on 10/12/2007, -1/+19Its also the better decision for mozilla.

      The better Mozilla runs in Vista the more viable of a browser and email client mozilla will be able to provide.
    • Aiwanei, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11I think you are forgetting the whole netscape fiasco microsoft had. At the time, at least I found netscape to be the superior browser, but microsoft would not play ball. The reason why? competition. Competition is what drives markets, if all buisnesses were just saying oh your product is better, lets help you make sure it works with us, we would a.) have a severe lack of innovation and b.) and a lot fewer startup companies.

      Don't get me wrong, this is a really smart decision decision by both firms. Microsoft gets a some good PR, and Mozilla doesn't have to spend extra time after the release of Vista to get their code up to snuff.
    • adamdigg, on 10/12/2007, -6/+7But there is a compelling reason for Mozilla not to work with Microsoft. Many previous parties that have worked with Microsoft have ended up extinct.

      For the person who claimed Firefox can't be killed because it's open source, wake up. Have you forgotten SCO? They didn't win, but the fact that the case wasn't thrown out of court immediately shows that FOSS is by no means a protective cloak. Companies can use patents to attack any kind of competition.

      As soon as Mozilla developers walk in the door at Redmond, I believe the Mozilla software and the developers personally will be exposed to huge risks. Please don't do it Mozilla.
    • pixelmixer, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9+ its open source.... so what does MS really have to lose from making it compatible? Its not like they're buying Mozilla or anything. And if they lose IE users to FF, whats the big deal, they'll at least still be using Windows.
    • GMorgan, on 10/12/2007, -4/+5"For the person who claimed Firefox can't be killed because it's open source, wake up. Have you forgotten SCO? They didn't win, but the fact that the case wasn't thrown out of court immediately shows that FOSS is by no means a protective cloak. Companies can use patents to attack any kind of competition."

      Firstly SCO wasn't thrown out immeadiately because the judicial system are not experts on computers.

      Secondly Firefox can infringe a million US software patents as far as I'm concerned. Won't make any difference to me as a UK'er one way or the other.
    • shawnanigans, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Well because FF and TB are open source even if Micro$oft; just kidding its Microsoft; buys Mozilla, people can just pick up right where they left off and create Foxyfire and Lightningbird. It makes it a bad business move for Microsoft to ever buy a popular open-source company.
    • noGoodNamesLeft, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3@GMorgan; Most. Stupid. Insular. Comment. Ever.

      Do you really think that if Firefox were (for whatever reason) deemed illegal in the US, it wouldn't hurt its support or development, nor its support from various websites who suddenly had far fewer people using FF and hence less reason to support it?
  • Paktu, on 10/12/2007, -5/+38Embace, Extend, Extinguish.
    • mrcharliebrown, on 10/12/2007, -6/+1Sounds like Microsoft has neutralized Firefox.
    • Urusai, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Time to insert some patented (or post-patented) IP into Mozilla...
    • adamdigg, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3I left a comment on the newsgroup in question, and got this response.
      http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.dev.planning/browse_frm/thread/622906b52581628e/a303e61ccb5c8149?

      He's suggesting I should comment in some other group about the invitation and acceptance? What I said was relevant to the topic, and respectful.

      I get a really bad feeling from this... Is there some "sweet deal" I'm going to ruin by bringing up the obvious, that Microsoft is not trustworthy, and not a friend of FOSS?
    • itanshi, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1i'd say its shrewd and as such being so shrewd, its off topic. i believe they are amiable and for wiser reasons than we could surmise from our objective perspectives
  • ImTheDarkcyde, on 10/12/2007, -12/+3beta 2 has firefox running fine, what else do they need to do?
  • gxcdesign, on 10/12/2007, -5/+16shows to prove that everyone has a price...except for jack bauer
  • plnegative1, on 10/12/2007, -16/+7Microsoft is trying to go into too many realms of business. Operating Systems, word processors, gaming... etc. They need to find their niche and stick with that. Because, personally, I'm getting tired of companies like Microsoft and Sony trying to run everything.
    • orgasmatron, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6Yeah because competition is horrible...
    • marvin69, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6Yea and Apple needs to just make portable music players and forget about computers, OS, etc.
    • GMorgan, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4MS are only one entity financially. The corperation is run very much as a series of mini-empires. Generally the Office team do not see the Windows team. This is why Office can be so great when Windows can be so flawed, there is no mind sharing between the teams as such.

      Anyway given this they can fully focus on each of these diverse areas.
    • wistar, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2Oh really? And how long have you been at Microsoft?
  • tobiasproject, on 10/12/2007, -18/+4Snorlax is *****' helpin' everybody right now!
    • Halifax1, on 10/12/2007, -14/+2Bitch, that's not Snorlax, it's ***** borelax!! dick.
  • alahiri, on 10/12/2007, -8/+16Recall what happened to Netscape.. Microsoft played nice with them for a while and then crawled into its heart and broke it into pieces...

    Same is going to happen with Mozilla. 2 years from now IE will be the only browser again in the market.

    Never beleive Microsoft.. at least not from its history.
    • smiley2billion, on 10/12/2007, -2/+27Meh, Firefox is open source. I don't think they can kill it.
    • skunkman62, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5are you kidding, netscape did it to themselves. remember communicator? a pos bloatware.
    • Aux88, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Well, that and Opera...
    • wistar, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3I've said it before and I'll say it again: Netscape screwed themselves when, at the peak of their popularity after the release of NS4, they made the incredibly idiotic decision to re-write their codebase from scratch and didn't release anything for 3+ years. Microsoft coasted to a win. MS did not set out to destroy NS but got very lucky because NS did something unconscionably stupid.

      Read a little about this travesty here:
      http://joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html
      http://joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000027.html

  • MalDON, on 10/12/2007, -4/+7Very smart. Gives more power to Mozilla. This is a great sign of the success of Firefox.
  • NiGHTSChao, on 10/12/2007, -5/+7*waves a little flag* Go FireFox T_T
  • bizsumpark182, on 10/12/2007, -9/+2Maybe Microsoft should just let Mozilla take over IE. Maybe, then I would go back to using IE.
    • razei, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11Even if IE had decent standards support, I would still take Firefox over it any day. I like my [heavily] customized browsing experience, and don't wanna pay $29 for an extension via ieaddons.com that I could get for free on Firefox.
  • scorpioz, on 10/12/2007, -7/+8Why is it that when Microsoft (which has the major OS share) decides to help other programs to work better with windows it is thought of as MS is giving in or something?
    Microsoft is a secure enough company that it takes these decision that other companies think of as losing or giving up.
    Microsoft continues to work with all the major hardware developers (in matters such as drivers - and MS digital signatures etc) such as creative which they compete against on other levels only to provide consumers (us) seamless integration.
    Apple does the same thing, providing "help" to MS to port the good MS applications such as MS Office so that it runs well on Apple OSX etc.
    It should NOT be seen as MS has lost or anything. Its just that MS is a BIG enough company that the OS division takes the decisions they think are best for the OS while the IE department continues to work to improve the browser.
    • cubbieco, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10I think you may have missed the browser war when it was fierce. There was a point with Netscape 2 that updating IE to 2 (maybe 3 I don't remember) actually overwrote some of netscapes files making it inoperable.

      Your comparison is flawed. Microsoft has never tried to kill hardware drivers. Microsoft has tried to kill other browsers.

      So when Microsoft does something like this it is natural for others to be skeptical.
    • Scruffydan, on 10/12/2007, -5/+5I think MS is much less evil than it used to be... at least I hope so
    • stock99, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0maybe because when browser is becoming a standard platform in the future other then desktop environment loaded with tones of application.
    • GMorgan, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2"I think MS is much less evil than it used to be... at least I hope so"

      I'd agree with that but they still have a long way to go in that respect.
    • wistar, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1How about some examples? Just curious. What should MS do, in your opinion, to be less evil? Saying something like "Go open source" doesn't count.
    • babbling, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7wistar,

      They should stop trying to exclude users of non-Microsoft software. This means (unpatented) open standards to allow interoperability between users of Microsoft software and users of other software.

      For example, they should document the MS Word file formats. Another example would be providing a legally-binding promise not to sue people for implementing software that can play Windows Media files.

      I don't think Microsoft has a moral obligation to make their software Free Software, but they should stop sabotaging interactions between people. If my friend uses MS Word and I use OpenOffice, Microsoft has no right to prevent me from fully communicating with my friend.

      If you agree, please check out:
      http://digg.com/tech_news/Ask_the_BBC_to_support_Ogg_Vorbis_Theora
  • Reddog_x2000, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6Maybe I missed something. What's in it for Microsoft?
    • forgottenred, on 10/12/2007, -0/+12options. If Microsoft wants its OS's to continue to be successful it has to keep with the "works with everything" image.
    • atmofunk, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7respect
    • WiseWeasel, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Access to their competitor's source code . . . oh wait . . .
  • dergachev, on 10/12/2007, -4/+5@Reddog: Microsoft wants Vista to be successful
  • kevgig, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Finally! Thanks for someday making my life, as a developer easier.
  • mike503, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5why would they NOT accept an offer?

    oh and @reddog: microsoft gets an image boost, too. working with open source instead of against it.
  • MisterCookie, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4If they include Firefox with Vista, the internet will be saved ^^(if they hide the IE icon that is)
  • EskimoJoe, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1Am I the only one annoyed that the author kept calling a mailing list a "blog"? >_>
  • chubbymidget, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7And they were never seen or heard from again....
  • apotropaic, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7Its kinda part of Microsofts job to help make sure popular products are useful in Vista. They are working with all sorts of software to make sure its compatible with Vista. Because people wont swtich if their favorite program doesn't work and MS knows that. And... Microsoft in this case != IE7. Weather or not courts or MS believe it Microsoft really should be a few different companies. And in this case its not like its IE7 developers helping Mozilla developers. Its Vista (OS) developers that are helping.
  • IcerC, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6"The offer includes help with the Thunderbird email client."
    So Microsoft invites Mozilla to team up with their open source team to work on Firefox and Thunderbird?
    I can see Microsoft supporting Mozilla, but helping to steal people from ie and outlook?

    I am STILL confused.
  • IcerC, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Not so fast! What about Opera, Redmond?
    • Space_Balls, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I think Opera is to portable and self sufficient to need much help from Microsoft.
      Out of all Browsers, Opera doesn't change no matter which OS your running it under, Firefox looks quite different depending on if its running on Linux, Windows or OSX, which means much stronger OS integration.
    • havuk, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Opera *did* get invited.

      http://my.opera.com/dstorey/blog/show.dml/419834
  • muikano, on 10/12/2007, -7/+5*****, its in microsoft's best interest to own the browser landscape. What this is, is the beginning of the end. Microsoft is in the business of dominating formats. The browser is the single most powerful tool to popularize and distribute such formats. It's hard to beat free and immediate. Its hard to beat free, immediate and BUILT IN.

    If you think this invitation is on the level, you all are crazy. Microsoft would throwaway Xbox Live before they'd allow Firefox to continue to develop independently. Its just too important to the future of the company. The thing is: Firefox devs aren't dumbasses. The dumbest among them could anaylze the needs of Microsoft and deduce their motive. The open letter is just a cover up to explain why the Devs are visiting Microsoft HQ. The real reason is the slow submersion of firefox code into IE. There is money being traded here. Lots and lots of money. Firefox was being bought--correction--it is now sold.

    The dominoes click. There is absolutely no need to have a vista compatibility face-to-face conversation. Vista isn't even under final revision yet. It's not as if the help and docu files won't be posted to devsites by MS. Did Intel open up an Apple center w/the Intel Mac developments? The only reason for programmers to be in MS HQ is if they are employees. But since Firefox is an open source foundation, that's quite against the rules. What this is, is domination by proxy. Say goodbye to the Firefox dream. Firefox will be used to pave the way for .NET and be the final thing that destroys Java.

    For proof, you can check the future earnings of Microsoft this quarter. Buying Firefox must have cost them an arm and a leg. They can't afford firefox AND do a price cut on the Xbox 360 at the same time. And yet they have to keep this deal a secret. Expect more unexpected expenditure items from MS reports.

    The thing is, OSS developers are used to building from scratch. There will be a splintering from the firefox community once more details arise.
    • mjpatey, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4muikano, you're certainly entitled to your own perspective. You mentioned "the dominoes clicking"... you must be playing with custom, extra-tall dominoes, because the gaps between them are pretty wide.

      I guess we'll know more in time, but for now I can only see this as a good thing for everybody. Sorry, not buying your wild theory.
    • wistar, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Muikano: Your lack of grasp is the only thing alarming to me.
    • malkir, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1@ muikano
      You may want to consider getting some mental help.
      Firefox cannot be bought in any sense that will help Microsoft.
      If Mozilla was bought out Firefox would just be forked and development would continue. This is how open source is designed, it cannot be stopped by such tactics, this is also the single reason that open source is the ONLY potential long term competitor with Microsoft in the software industry.

      Personally I think Microsoft has some pretty smart guys working for them, and they realize that open source cannot be stopped. This is leading them to slowly change their business model to be more inclusive of open source, while at the same time retaining as much of their market dominance as they can.
    • noGoodNamesLeft, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1I started reading your message and thought it was a sensible caution against not trusting MS as far as we could throw them (because frankly, *I* don't).

      Then I read further and realised that you really need to get a grip.
    • A1kmm, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Firstly, Mozilla isn't just available under GPL, it is also available under MPL and LGPL, so they could integrate the Mozilla codebase into their operating system at no cost, and without releasing much source code (only the integration hooks).

      Secondly, The Mozilla Corporation / Mozilla Foundation don't own all the Copyright in their code base, because they accept contributions from third parties, so if Microsoft wanted to use the code other than under the GPL, MPL, or LGPL, they would have to ask all the contributors. I have contributed (albeit not very much) to Mozilla, but Microsoft haven't asked me if they can use my code under another license. Of course, the Mozilla Foundation / Corporation could license Microsoft to rename IE to Firefox, but that would be rather stupid, and against the Mozilla Foundation Charter "to promote choice and innovation on the Internet."
    • muikano, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1of course, these tactics won't work. But that doesnt mean that Microsoft won't try it. The hinge here is that Microsoft needs IE to succeed. It is their number one priority. You can derive their future actions from this base need.

      Because of GPL and the like, what Microsoft needs is the names and numbers of all the core developers of Firefox. That is why the center is there. It's just central location for the absorption of firefox. This is an acquisition of an open source project without going through all the legal snafus. This is a cover up for the acquisition. Let me tell it again.
      Cover up. Acquisition.
    • malkir, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0let me tell it again
      acquisition will not help microsoft in any way
      firefox would just be forked and development would continue
  • bi0metric, on 10/12/2007, -6/+2Very Very Very Coool! Microsoft is getting their ***** together :)
  • totorototoro, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3sounds like a win-win to me. maybe MS can help with memory leaks, and the firefox guys can share some Acid2 secrets.
    • D14BL0, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2M$? Help with memory leaks? Hahahahahahaha!
    • GMorgan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Lets be fair MS have lots of experience with memory leaks ;).

      As for MS learning Acid2 trickery from Mozilla, have you seen Firefoxs attempts at Acid2. To be fair Mozilla have quite rightly ignored Acid2 up until now because its a very strict test and they have other things to deal with and they are good at current standards. Aren't they targeting Acid2 success for Firefox v3 which will come out in the first quarter next year.
  • Hayes, on 10/12/2007, -8/+3The only reason I even use FF is to view Digg properly. The Digg guys are absolute hypocrites, at best.
    • wistar, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2I agree. Digg is incredibly buggy and inconsistent in behavior. I have no idea where this comment will actually show up but I hope it is where the digg UI says it will. Experience has taught me that that about 20% of the time my comment will either not show up at all or show up in a part of the thread that I haven't even looked at yet.

      (Later: actually, it worked this time.)
  • mjpatey, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Sounds good. I use Nvu for Web development (formerly a Netscape / Mozilla project)... I wonder if there will be any opportunity like this for the developers of Nvu?
  • D14BL0, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4As long as Mozilla stays open source, I cold care less.
  • shaolinpunks, on 10/12/2007, -4/+2didn't microsoft do this with apple and then stole are there *****?
    • wistar, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2No, Apple and MS have wide and deep cross-licensing agreements whereby they share just about anything that they want to share.
  • PsychoPNut, on 10/12/2007, -5/+0I hate these people that wanna ***** Kevin in the ass.... GO ALEX!!
    • D3koy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2What the hell.....That was related to this how?...next time you think about leaving a comment, DON'T...(and for the record, i like XP..not Mac)
  • homerhomer, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3####### Prediction #######

    * Microsoft shows Mozilla how to work with Vista. The new integration makes Mozilla cause browser havoc just like IE.

    Keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer.

  • someguy9, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3they shouldn't have done that, Microsoft is just going to screw them over
  • D3koy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2I almost think less of Mozilla for selling out, a little... I still hold them highest in computer software and such, and i will always use Firefox....Mozilla(in my mind at least) was the little indie rock band giving major corporations a run for their money.....guess we all can't be perfect...
    • Escamillo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4How old are you, twelve?

      I'm glad that Mozilla's devs are a lot more mature than Mozilla's fanboys are.
    • wistar, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Agreed. Most of the opinions here actually produce guffaws. My wife thinks I'm reading a comedy piece. (yours included, Escamillo, but for the right reasons).
    • noGoodNamesLeft, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Bad analogy; "little indie rock bands" will usually "sell out" at the first opportunity. They normally don't because they suck and record companies don't want to sign them. :)
    • muikano, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1indie bands dont suck. 90 percent of them do. But 90 percent of commercial sounds suck too. We live in a world where Paris Hilton has an album for god's sakes.
  • wweundertaker, on 10/12/2007, -3/+0I don't know what the fuss is about. Frankly it get's better for us - the users. If Firefox becomes better with MS collaboration why should we complain? After all, most of us will be upgrading to Vista (If it is released) then atleast have our favourite browser work on it.
  • Jaybob404, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Too bad they're only supporting Firefox in one sense of the word.
  • darkpo3t, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1hahaha
  • WiseWeasel, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4IT'S A TRAP!!!!

    : P
  • MattGilley, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"Mozilla is merging with Microsoft, you didnt know?"
    Wow, its so easy to just make up something, isn't it? Why can't we just wait and see what is going to happen instead of just coming to conclusions.
  • AsadM, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0Has Mozilla joined the darkside?
  • FeRReT41too, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Run Away, Run Away!!!!!!!!
  • drunkenoaf, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0can't beat 'em, join 'em? Oh get tae *****-- all competitors of MS will want any of their products to work on Vista.
  • MrViklund, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2Pretty nice by Microsoft.
    I don't understand what people are complaining about. Of course you want all help you can get. And it has nothing to do with beat 'em/join 'em to do. Microsoft is just being nice and people complain. I think this is good and will both benefit Mozilla and Microsoft.
    • noGoodNamesLeft, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Regardless of whether this is ultimately a good move or not, given MS's behaviour in the past and repeated displays of bad faith, it would be incredibly naive to automatically assume that Microsoft are Just Being Nice and that there are no other issues to consider.
  • dready, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0"Mozilla is the one who needs the help?"

    "You really think that Mozilla code is perfect? Have a look at how history is stored (It's called Mork: the format was a brain fart of someone who probably shouldn't be programming, ever)."

    I've heard of mork but never looked inside, and I just did. Yes, I agree it looks bad but at least Mozilla history has never given me any problem and it take milliseconds to clear. How do you even clear the history from IE?
  • bar10dr, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Mozilla is now officially recognized by the big boys, that's a huge step.
  • osarhan, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Who cares what ya use, if interoperability makes thing better for the end-user's thats what important!
  • danjal, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1I think this is a great step by microsoft, instead of the old company thinking Give them what we want, there changed to Give them what THEY want. I'm rather excited about the new OS and they way they are handling it, sure its taken awhile, but all good things come to those who wait.
  • omega86yu, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2I sense ulterior motives on Microsoft side of the deal >.>
  • uownedge, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1This is all fine and dandy, but I think the question on everybody's mind would be: "Will this give us the gravy-making plugin we've desired for so long?"
  • Allistairr, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Man... this site looks awesome in my mozilla firefox for windows.... how come it doesn't look the same in my mozilla firefox for linux?
  • superterran, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2It seems to me that if Microsoft is trying to shy away from the insecure Win9x codebase, and that's including ActiveX, then they will never be able to do that until people stop using ActiveX, vbscript and the flakey IE custom tags. Microsoft can't possibly strip out support for all of this at once, as that would destroy the notion of 'backwards compatability'. If Microsoft could get Firefox past the threshold of 'eliteness' and propel it into the ranks of a defacto standard, then practically all websites that use that crap will stop so it will work in Firefox. Then, Microsoft can start designing online services that are platform independant, and then Microsoft will be a step closer from getting out of the OS game.

    Microsoft isn't a company full of idiots, they know that alternate platforms are starting to reach the critical mass required to unearth their stake, and they know that in order to survive, they have to have software on those platforms that people can't live without (Office and Media Center IMO). The best way to do that is through online services, and the first hurtle of that is to have a unifed standard for this platform. The W3C is just as good as any.

    Microsoft has already won the internet, and now all Microsoft has to do is win it's users. I think that's what's going on here. Microsoft wants Firefox to pull ahead, so Microsoft can lock everybody in on proprietary web based services. I don't think Microsoft makes enough money on OS's to justify how much it dumps in to them, I think Microsoft would rather evolve in to a company more like Apple meets Novel. Who wouldn't? If Linux is free, and you don't have to pay developers, wouldn't you rather find a way to cash in on that instead of competing with it head on?
    • wistar, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1In the enterprise, ActiveX is incredibly useful. It's just that, once out in the open world, it's a little too useful and especially for those folks who'd you'd least like it to be useful to.

      I doubt Microsoft thinks they've come anywhere close to winning the internet.
    • superterran, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Microsoft has won the internet, at least in the only meaningful way - IE is the browser to beat, and it's also the browser we code for. I'm a web developer, In my small oceanfront town, the 200+ websites in this area my company hosts (from all around North and South Carolina), over 90% of the hits to the sites on our server are from folks using some flavor of IE. Whats even more telling, IMO, is that I'm the only one in the company that develops sites on Firefox, and then makes them IE compatible - everybody else uses IE as a default browser.

      Now, that might have something to do with the fact that I'm sitting in front of a brand new MBP and they aren't, but even when I was working on Windows day in and day out, I used Firefox. I am the purist, though - and I'm a one-in-a-thousand. I figure that web developers like the ones who work on many small projects instead of a few large projects, overwelmingly do the same thing.

      IE6 isn't just the practical standard, it's the gold standard. Therefore, people keep developing ActiveX controls, and people keep designing sites with proprietary IE6 features and such, and Microsoft, as any practical thinking group would, knows that if people are still developing heavily for this generation, then they aren't preparing themselves for the next generation.

      Microsoft can't possibly pull off what they're looking to pull off with this generation of browsers, who could? We've got some incredible stuff out there right now, but I could think of at least a dozen internet based applications that I couldn't even begin to work out how to make it with this generation of tools.

      Microsoft, if they have an ounce of sense in them, knows that they need to change direction and get people on board with the new platforms; Backwards compatibility be damned. I think that's the secret plot.
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