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94 Comments
- RadiantBeing, on 10/12/2007, -2/+44Did you even read the summary? MS is offering to bundle Flash in exchange for being able to Save As PDF in Word 2007.
- Gardenhead, on 10/12/2007, -11/+35Deal or no deal?
- Cytranic, on 10/12/2007, -6/+2598% of all statistics are made-up on the spot!
Actually digg me down, I found proof of his claim. http://www.adobe.com/products/player_census/flashplayer/version_penetration.html - FreakTrap, on 10/12/2007, -3/+22If Microsoft bundles Flash Player with Vista, it would make developments with Flash technologies alot easier to deploy to the general market, thus making Adobe's line of flash development tools far more popular among developers...
- invader, on 10/12/2007, -3/+20bundling flash player with IE would be the best thing to happen to flash in its history. this is a complete 180 from the talks last year about vista bringing a microsoft flash-killer.. as a flash developer, i was getting nervous, but now i'm getting excited. i hope this deal flies
i think it's a win(higher flash penetration)/win(saving to PDF for free) for consumers, which is pretty rare these days... - Leetful, on 10/12/2007, -4/+2098% of all internet users have SOME version of flash installed. Is it the latest version of flash? Not by a long shot. 100% all-natural inclusion of the latest (or by then at least very recent) version of flash to what will ultimately be likely all current windows users is a very big deal, with very cool consequences if you're a flash developer.
You're a fool if you think this would be anything but a great boon for Adobe. - lane.montgomery, on 10/12/2007, -3/+19That's not correct. A previous story stated that they would still offer the ability in an plug-in and wouldn't charge for it, but they wouldn't bundle it.
What I think most people are missing here is that MS is actually not acting like a monopoly, they are actually trying to cut a real business deal here. In the 90's, they would have just bundled the PDF ability without reguard to Adobe, and when Adobe threatened to sue they would have developed a flash replacement and bundled it with the operating system.
I'm not an MS fanboy by a long shot, but I think that the threat of real competition (via Apple on the high end and possibly Google on the low end) is changing the way MS does business a little bit. Google denied developing any sort of office competitor and still are even after the release of Spreadsheets. It's gotta make Microsoft worry, with all those engineers located all over the world, what else does Google have in the pipe. The more essential programs that Google releases as a service on the internet, the easier it will be to be OS neutral. It's not hard to imagine a future where a business could buy an office appliance from Google to run their entire office from and have really cheap workstations (Gubuntu?).
Google will deny it all the way to the release date, but I think they realized a while ago that they couldn't just stay a one trick pony because they were too exposed to the Microsoft monopoly. - modsuperstar, on 10/12/2007, -2/+12This would be absolutely awesome. Being a graphic designer I constantly preach the benefits of PDFs to the unwashed masses who use Word all the time. It pisses me off to no end when I'm forced to send a resume out to someone in Word. You have no idea what it's going to look like on the other end and it makes you look bad. Getting the masses one step closer to using PDF can only be a good thing.
- chamblah, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11I enjoyed reading what you had to say until you put in the $.
- NJank, on 10/12/2007, -3/+12dvdd127... nice. you may as well have just said 'first post' for the amount of thought you put into that drivel.
- sremick, on 10/12/2007, -6/+13Flash is a plague on the internet. Higher "Flash-penetration" is NOT a good thing. In this day and age, people are getting on the internet with more and more devices that are not PCs: cell phones, PDAs, fridges. Flash is proprietary and not an open standard, and the more sites depend on Flash for critical page functionality, the more that Adobe holds the keys to the internet where the only platforms who can use it are those that Adobe bothers to create a Flash player for.
Flash as an option for supplimentary media is fine. But if your site requires Flash, your site is broken. Too many sites use Flash (or Java) for stupid stuff like menu navigation where it could be done simpler and using less-bandwidth with dynamic HTML, allowing it to be cross-platform and not require a plug-in. - theone3, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Hmm.. It sounds more like an invitation for diplomacy than an insult.
Adobe is about to launch an anti-trust suit because "PDF export technology constitutes a separate product, and bundling undercuts Adobe's ability to charge for plug-ins", which seems entirely ridiculous. it's an open format, converters are freely available (google 'CutePDF' if you're interested), and if it weren't free, it wouldn't be used! They practically said "We'll sue you because we hate your guts."
It strikes me that Microsoft's response was extremely mature given the nature of Adobes' behavior. - oepapel, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6"Man, this is a **BIG** WIN/WIN for Adobe(Macromedia). Not much for Microsoft. Wasn't Microsoft trying to develop their own document format to compete with PDF. They're essentially inviting the big bad wolf to sleep in their den."
This is a big win for Microsoft. For years, Mac users have had "Save as PDF" functionality in every print dialog built right into the OS. No plugins, no software. Microsoft has relied on Adobe to sell the user a copy of Adobe Acrobat (not the reader!) so that Office could do this. By having Office integrate this functionality, there is no longer any need for anyone to buy Acrobat.
This effectively kills a product line for Adobe. Adobe is just threatening legal action so that Microsoft will settle and give them a royalty for each copy of Office sold. They are playing hard ball here and Microsoft is counter offering with a flash bundle deal. The XPS "PDF killer" was a fallback position for Microsoft in case Adobe walks away. Ironically, the best thing for everyone is if Adobe did walk away since the XPS specification has been released to the public. Adobe would lose it's "PDF tax" money generator.
I don't say this often but "Go Microsoft." - timsco, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Adobe has stated that Flash 9 for Linux will be out six months after Flash 9 for Windows/Mac (which is any day). A 64 bit player is "in the works".
- fozzie, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7Does this mean they may actually make a 64 bit flash player soon? YAY! What? no? BOOOOOO
- ToeCheese, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5@Gardenhead
PDF is integrated into the entire OS and is used to generate the display as well. The developer just needs to make a call to send the contents of his app to a file or printer. It's based on NextStep's Display Postscript. Next used to license Display Postscript but I have never heard of Apple licensing PDF.
The biggest plus to all of this is that PDFs open in a fraction of a second where Acrobat Reader takes forever (thanks to all the plugins and update check).
Another note: Quicktime is able to open a Photoshop file with layers. - mrgreen4242, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5"This would be absolutely awesome. Being a graphic designer I constantly preach the benefits of PDFs to the unwashed masses who use Word all the time. It pisses me off to no end when I'm forced to send a resume out to someone in Word. You have no idea what it's going to look like on the other end and it makes you look bad. Getting the masses one step closer to using PDF can only be a good thing."
That is something I love on a Mac and hate on a PC. OSX's handling of PDFs is fast, painless, and perfect. The current plug-in method used by Adobe Reader in Windows is absolutely horrible. It hangs my system everytime it loads, it's slow, and it's cumbersome. I deal with PDFs on my Mac at home and encourage people to send me things that way. But I dread getting a PDF at work, not only for the hassle that is Adobe reader, but also the limited options I have for working with them without having Acrobat. - C00001, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6quasipalm, i think you're wrong. flash ubiquity will actually go up, for two reasons: 1- video. youtube, google video, hell - even abc's online content. it's fast getting to the point that most online video requires flash. whether or not it's bundled, the average user's going to install it as soon as they find out they can't watch online video. 2 - flash 9 / flex 2. actionscript 3 is much more efficient, and the new player is blazing fast. definitely fast enough to compete with ajax. ajax is great, but the truth of the matter is that it employs a zillion hacks to get it to work the way you want. then, of course, you have the fact that ie will never conform to w3c. flash and flex are extremely easy to get in and design and code, and they will display the same across os and browser.
ajax is great, but you're fooling yourself if you don't think that the majority of web users are going to demand more and more media integration, slick animation, etc, etc. and although the average digg user knows and may care if it's flash, but the average internet user doesn't. - masamunecyrus, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6First of all, 98% do NOT have Flash 8 intalled. Second of all, nowhere near 98% have Shockwave or Acrobat installed. The company I work for employs several thousand, and we still use Acrobat 6 and do not have Shockwave installed. If I were in charge of IT, I'd certainly update accordingly, but the point is, it's a large, multi-national corporation, and I'm willing to bet that there are millions of other people in the same situation.
Moreover, I can't tell you how often I've wanted to save things as PDF files, for one reason or another. It's a very good format, and many people use it, but it takes a good deal of googling to find out a way to use it yourself for free. - NJank, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5my guess is that windows update would push flash updates too. that would keep everyone with the latestt flash version. THAT would be a helpful thing. if they put in in WinUpdate, I wonder if it would trickle down to the non-vista Windows updates...
- Brigadier, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5And people somehow still have no problem saying Flash is "ubiquitous" and a suitable substitute for cross platform open standards.
- anachron, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6Are you kidding? I ask b/c nothing you say makes sense to me. First of all, are you saying that Adobe doesn't want to add any of the Internet users that don't have Flash already?
Your next statement is more confusing. More often than not I run into users who need/want to save as PDF. Certainly, more than 2% of Internet user have a PDF converter installed whether it's from Adobe or not.
Seeing how Adobe partially depends on Microsoft (as an OS to use their software on) I don't see how offering to bundle their software is an insult. - MatttK, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5This is win-win. Any time I do a reformat, I always have to install the flash player eventually. And saving as a PDF can be really convenient sometimes. I hope this goes through!
- stmiller, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4A PPC Linux flash version would be nice.
- MaxTheSheep, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6I think it makes sense to bundle software with their OS, even though people may not like it. Many people dont know WTF an "internet browser" is, they simply call the big, blue "E" on their desktop, the internet. Bundling the software with their OS means that the consumer doesn't have to choose for themselves what they want to use, which causes less... anxiety and makes the consumer feel... safer with their system. It makes it easier for the OS to be picked up and used by anyone, but at least Microsoft gives you the choice to install Firefox, Winamp, etc.
- zombieooo, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4You can already save to PDF from Office, or any other Windows application that can print with CutePDF. Its freeware. Why isn't Adobe going after them?
http://www.cutepdf.com/ - ihaterobots, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3ok, so same question.... why would microsoft push flash (for any reason) if they're working on this?
and do you have any good links to the sdk specs? that don't require me to launch windows hell-player on my mac? - Gardenhead, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3So, does Apple have a deal with Adobe then? Save as PDF is integrated into Tiger everywhere.
- C00001, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2i don't know if this is actually their reasoning, but by bundling both adobe's player as well as their own, it would essentially kill any of those pesky anti-trust lawsuits (like with ie). at least for the first couple generations, flash isn't going anywhere, so if it helps them get a strong presence in the market and legally protects them, why not bundle it for a couple of years?
- donpdonp, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2"it will essentially cut out Microsoft's leverage in the RIA market by making Flash Player 9 (for use with Flex 2) as ubiquitous as WPF/e for RIA deployment."
what does RIA and WPF/e mean? - jonshipman, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3All MS has to do is hold a meeting with Apple and ask them how they got Adobe to give them 'Save as PDF." Maybe they did and that's why Flash is installed on all OSX installations? Who knows.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Ugh. Bundles? That's so 90's.
- monkeyrun, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2the problem is Flash is already the dominant format on the internet.
They really don't have to bundle it, people will download it if they want to use Google video or youTube. - judgeFire, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Regular PDF is an open format anyone can use without asking Adobe, even Microsoft.
For Vista MS would have liked to implement a number of their own tweaks, or something to that effect, which resulted in them needing to license the technology from Adobe, at a highish cost. - unbreakable, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2This is absolutely NOT a fair trade. Flash is Free whereas you need to pay for "Save as PDF". How many times have you placed an online order and wished you could save the receipt/confirmation as PDF.
If flash dosen't come bundled, all you have to do is to open your browser and click to install plug-in.
Having said that, there is a free Open Source PDF printer available. Its called PDFCreator. After you install this Plugin, you can choose PDF under Printers.
http://sourceforge.net/projects/pdfcreator/ - oblivinated, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Just like the sun is going to die out someday. Tell me why we exist then... Microsoft isn't a sinking ship, more like a ship with lots of holes. If they are able to get their act together, plug those holes, and make some repairs, I'm sure they can get back into the business.
- embraceware, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Hasn't Flash been included with Windows since Windows 98?
As an example of proof: "Windows XP SP1, Windows XP SP2, Windows 98, and Windows Millennium are bundled with a vulnerable version of Flash, said Microsoft in its alert" - kdehead, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2open office has "save as pdf" - did they do a deal with adobe?
- ihaterobots, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2i can't believe the comment thread is this long and nobody has discussed the relevance to this deal and the rumored "sparkle" project from microsoft - the supposed "flash killer". i would assume that this flash deal would kill off sparkle, and thus put that rumor (vaporware?) to rest.
has anyone heard anything about this? - neko, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I think they should do it the other way around; upgrade windows update using flash!
...purely for the perversion. - neko, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@Cytranic: Huh, I was about to call BS on that claim too. I certainly avoid Flash like the plague, and it's definitely not on the machines at work.
But clicking through to the survey methodology, it actually seems like quite a reasonable, unbiased survey. They're aware that clicking on a survey page that spawns a popup "This site requires Flash, install flash now, why aren't you installing it install it faster go go go" would have a detrimental effect on the study, and under their list of choices for "Platform", I was pleasantly surprised to see many different platforms there (as opposed to distros of Windows)
So, there you go. I guess a lot of people -do- have it. Doesn't stop me hating it personally. Oh well. - SDE06, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1This is a guess, if MS pre-installs the flash player (and also the pdf reader as separate products) no one would be tempted to install Apollo.
As of these videos, you should be able to google these (or msn these? :)) - tavisjohn, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I can already make PDF files for FREE!
http://sourceforge.net/projects/pdfcreator/
So this is pointless... - zoombusa, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1All of this for that sounds good but what would really sweeten the pot is if flash would be upgraded through windows updates. That would be the key to this deal. Either way I think Adobe will go for it. They would be stupid not to.
- o0joshua0o, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Is it just me or has Microsoft become slightly less evil as of late? If they keep going in this direction, I might even start to like them.
- samdu, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Everyone is acustomed to downloading Flash, anyway. Bundling it with the OS won't increase its penetration significantly. If MS wants to successfully threaten Adobe to add "Save as PDF..." functionality, they're going to have to do better than this. And yes, I said, "threaten Adobe." I'm sure Adobe is keenly aware of all the companies that MS has crushed after establishing partnerships to include their software in MS's products.
- SDE06, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Vaporware? Have you been asleep these past 6 Months?
WPF is UX at its best among other things! Good bye Macrodobia!
http://channel9.msdn.com/Showpost.aspx?postid=116327&pvrid=4
http://blog.mix06.com/virtualmix/archive/2006/03/16/AvenueA_Razorfish_demo.aspx
http://www.microsoft.com/winme/0603/27340/rezon8_mbr.asx
http://metahost.savvislive.com/microsoft/20060321/mix_belfiore_20060321_100.asx
http://www.microsoft.com/winme/0603/27340/Fluid_MBR.asx - SDE06, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I believe one of the reasons Adobe is preventing save as pdf in windows vista is because the flash player and acrobat reader are being bundled as 1 plug-in (code name 'Apollo').
"Adobe is working on Apollo software that can run Flash applications outside the browser, so they behave like desktop programs. The player will render Flash, HTML and PDF content." (sounds like macromedia centrale to me, which btw was a total flop)
Apollo is a direct competitor to WPF, I guess pre-emptive war has already started.
Adobe is dead, long live WPF ! - saska, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Sparkle and Flash both in Vista is kind of like PDF and XPS both in Vista, you know.
- iAlex, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Sounds great, flash & shockwave should both be included in Windows Vista.
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