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154 Comments
- psycobrat, on 10/12/2007, -10/+100about time, frontpage made some of the most bloated fscked code.
and it is easier and quicker to code by hand. afterall html is not that hard to learn... sam's even has a 24hr learners book for it. - upsidedork, on 10/12/2007, -2/+75"Award winning"? I didn't know they gave Razzies to software.
- Berkana, on 10/12/2007, -1/+41I agree; good riddance.
It's not that I don't like WYSIWYG editors; I love Macromedia and Adobe's offerings. (now that they're merged, their editors will probably both migrate into a common code base with Dreamweaver). I hate Frontpage because it was so IE centric; it coded pages that looked great in IE, and that's about it. It had a strong bias towards proprietary solutions MS wove into IE, further strengthening MS' monopolistic tactics on the net.
Never forget what MS did to Netscape! I didn't like Netscape's proprietary extensions to HTML either (so the rise of Mozilla in Netscape's wake is a good thing), but the way MS crushed Netscape by weaving IE into their OS and then blatantly lied about their methods in court was just inexcusable and unforgivable. They are gearing up to do the same to the security vendors. And countless web developers have wasted hours of their time just to make their standards compliant pages display correctly because MS sat on its fat ass and never fixed the dozens of CSS and HTML bugs that plagued IE; they didn't have to. With no real competition, there was no incentive for them to improve, so IE stagnated for years. The case against against MS is vindicated. I hope the whole stinking combo of IE and Frontpage sinks and never rises again! - gildude, on 10/12/2007, -1/+40So what, they are just replacing it with two tools: For the SharePoint crowd, "SharePoint Designer 2007" and for the others "Microsoft Expressions web designer".
http://www.microsoft.com/products/expression/en/web_designer/default.mspx - gcnaddict, on 10/12/2007, -0/+33"o well for microsoft's attempt at html editing"
Except that it didn't die.
http://www.microsoft.com/products/expression/en/web_designer/default.mspx
There was an open beta a few months back. It won't do anything now since Expression Web was released to manufacturing. Digg link: http://www.digg.com/design/Test_Microsoft_s_new_Web_Design_app_(EXCLUSIVE_BETA) - tbeseda, on 10/12/2007, -2/+34Anybody else gonna miss it?
Didn't think so. - Xageroth, on 10/12/2007, -4/+30Microsoft's attempt at editing HTML is a lot better than it's attempt at rendering HTML.
- mercurysquad, on 10/12/2007, -5/+30Award winning Web authoring tool my ass.
- Quix, on 10/12/2007, -1/+21As someone who is forced to use FrontPage at work because it is our "enterprise standard" (barf), allow me to say: DIE, FRONTPAGE, DIE!!!
FrontPage makes me hate my life. - InetRoadkill, on 10/12/2007, -8/+28Frontpage produces the worst html code to be seen anywhere on the web. The code is awful. Real webmasters hand code ... preferably with vi.
I think it bears asking again: Who was fool enough to give Frontpage any awards? - llbbl, on 10/12/2007, -0/+18award winning my ass
- aknowles5139, on 10/12/2007, -3/+20"Oh well for Microsoft's attempt at HTML editing"
What about Notepad? :P - dgritsko, on 10/12/2007, -4/+19@Azur2:
No it isn't. Hand coding is both easy and expedient (usually more so than FrontPage), if you are willing to practice and work at it. - revmitcz, on 10/12/2007, -3/+17It's less about acting 1337 and "ooh look, I can write the simplest computer language ever" as it is about what FP would do to code, and how much sheer bloat it added to pages. Moreover, designers/programmers who had to actually work with a page that had originally been created (or even edited at some point) with FP were suffering headaches trying to decode the ridiculous amount of bloat that was added in.
I'm all for making things easier and more accessible to people, but FP was a shoddy implementation of WYSIWYG editing that caused more trouble than it was worth. - aphexmandelbrot, on 10/12/2007, -8/+21How am I supposed to put 40 different tags next to a single word indicating over and over that I want the same font as the previous sentence?
Looks like it's back to copy/paste for pregnant code. - dacheetah, on 10/12/2007, -0/+12I can't believe he's being dugg down, that was clearly humour, and for anyone who knows anything about well structured HTML and has seen frontpage's HTML (or pretty much any HTML created by a microsoft program) it really is very funny.
Frontpage (Like Word's export function, and many other methods of creating HTML from MS products) created the worst HTML I have ever seen. Every paragraph had about 40 redundent tags, and things never looked the same in the WYSIWYG and the browser, let alone amongst different browsers. An HTML document as saved by frontpage had a filesize roughly an order of magnitude larger than one created with say dreamweaver, and the smallest files always come from a carefully tweaked hand written HTML file, with whitespace then stripped. And remember, the larger the HTML file, the longer it takes to download. I remember seeing pages written in frontpage, with almost no graphics, take longer to download on cable than a similar page would on dial-up.
I'm glad frontpage is dead, I just hope that the stuff microsoft is replacing it with is at least an order of magnitude better, otherwise we are doomed to have large numbers of stupid companies who are loyal to microsoft creating bad HTML for many years to come... (Don't get me wrong, some microsoft products are good, but frontpage was the suck.) - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+14OK :P
http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/8725/frontpage20032zl3.jpg - ldavid, on 10/12/2007, -2/+13the names just keep getting better and better don't they
- bobpaul, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9heh... yeah, frontpage did do that. You're funny.
- shmatt, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10@theblooms
you're not as l33t as you think. Lots and lots of people hand-code their pages. - thoughtcancer, on 10/12/2007, -3/+10Frontpage was hated by everyone because of the crappy code that it generated. Frontpage proved that if Microsoft were ever to feel like sticking a steaming turd into a box and sell it as "Microsoft Turd 2007", people would buy it. Truth it, there are many more people who wouldn't know bad software if it walked up and slapped them silly. Frontpage was terrible compared to the competition, but it allowed "regular" people to make web sites (whether that's good or bad is debatable at this point...but you must admit that the templates that Frontpage came with were unholy, at the very least).
- pumacub, on 10/12/2007, -6/+13They're replacing it with Expression Web Designer.
- jeffgtr, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8Thank goodness. Frontpage was awful. Now if IE would just go away designing web pages would be so much easier. I've read that Expression is a little better than Frontpage, still, I don't trust Microsoft when it comes to the web. They just don't get the concept of needing standards and playing nice with others. Just think if all companies behaved the same way. You'd have to have an "X" brand screw to repair an "X" brand machine and torque it in using the same proprietary brand screwdriver. Microsoft writes it's own rules and expects everyone to adjust in lockstep. Sorry, this veered off topic, just that Microsoft makes my job more difficult and when I start typing about them I get a little carried away. Frontpage gone, it's a start.
- TheJeffer, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7Exactly. Microsoft isn't getting out of the web-editing world by any means. They're just retiring an old, outdated product so that they can focus on their new and vastly improved tools. The new software mentioned in the comment above is actually pretty dang good. You can get nice, clean, standards-compliant code out of them.
Besides what's mentioned above, those of us developing ASP .Net pages just use the built in web designer that ships with Visual Studio (basically the same thing as Expressions web designer. - doon, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7if it was an add-on to Office 2000 (read: free) okay. if it works for you, good. but it was an awful app, poorly designed and support was a joke. good for getting users to switch to something else. like mario paint.
- Matt2k, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3@ Dhalgren
> HTML is not code, it's "markup": Hyper Text Markup Language. PHP and Perl are code.
I realize you're parroting some ***** apocrypha you appropriated from some self righteous web hippie circa some 1995 usenet flame war, but *EVEN THE W3C* calls it "HTML code". Jesus, give it a rest. Look up the definition of code in the dictionary. It's pretty ***** broad.
> If they don't have the capacity or the time, then they have no right to be making web pages... Seriously, either make the time, find a friend who knows what they are doing, or pay someone. Everyone in life has a niche, don't try and force your round peg into a square hole.
See my reference above to self righteous webheads. Who appointed you ***** internet sheriff? No RIGHT to be making web pages? You can't make stuff like this up, folks! Writing HTML is not like practicing medicine or law, you jackass - Yage2006, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4All I can say is YAY :)
Less broken web pages. - Naga10, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5I believe I speak for everyone when I say
FINALLY! - mercurysquad, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6Use Dreamweaver if you must have wysiwyg editing functionality.
- theone3, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Mario Paint does HTML?!?
- whalesalad, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Dreamweaver really isn't that hot either. It writes solid code (as long as you are in code view), but the app is bloated just as much as Frontpage.
Textmate for the win. - Klowner, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6Now, if only they'd give up on their attempt at HTML rendering
- Marthinus, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Try Notepad2 instead, at least it has code highlighting.
- thomas, on 10/12/2007, -4/+7Good, Front Page sucked! Dreamweaver FTW!
- danlemire, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Except that is not really dead. They changed the name and updated it, re purposed for a more savvy person like a web developer. It is now called Expression.
FrontPage 2003 really isn't all the bad. I use FrontPage 2003 almost everyday to code pages by hand. Of course, I also work in a primarily Microsoft Shop. It has the most useful feature for me. It's called code snippets. You can create your own code snippets and when you press Ctrl+Enter and type in you custom snippet name, you can drop in all kinds of code very quickly and very easily. (I believe an alternative program that gets close to this is PSPAD) Some people really like the Dream weaver snippets feature, but I don't like using the mouse while I am writing code.
Granted, I am not a typical FrontPage user, because I don't even use FrontPage extensions anymore. But I can tell you that using the built in reformat in HTML is really handy for dealing with pages that don't have good code spacing, and the optimize code does just the opposite when publishing. I can comment the hell out of any file, and FrontPage removes the comments if I want it to, so that no one sees them when I publish. - theone3, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6Actually EWD isn't half bad - surprising I know..
- jtp51, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3For PC, the text editor is UltraEdit. For Mac, it is TextMate.
Don't be afraid to spend a little money for a tool that you could potentially use throughout your day. - zerblat, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3You can use tidy ( http://tidy.sf.net ) to clean up that horrible mess that MS Word spews when asked to output HTML.
- yahoofrom, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4F**k IE-only websites.
- sctechguy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Award winning?! What, was this a panel of blind judges, transported in time from the land of animated gifs, bad color combinations, and frames, known as 1996?
Incidentally, if you want to see an example of what frontpage can do, visit:
http://www.pyradyne.com
Too many animated gifs....oh the humanity! - Lighthater, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5Microsoft bought the software and updated it, its not MS's creation. I've tried it and it's not bad. A lot like Dreamweaver, but the CSS creation seems easier. I never had anything against Frontpage, per se, but this is better by far.
- ShadedNine, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5Expressions is definitely a vast improvement over Frontpage, and this seems to be the right approach, instead of just "revamping" old code, start (or buy) a fresh product line.
If only they'd have done the same with IE, instead of the abomination we have today. - Doomhammer, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4GOD, FINALLY ! Good riddance...
- xtr3m, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6Learn to press the shift button more often.
- vdxc, on 09/29/2008, -0/+2but that's not who Microsoft is targeting. That's what Notepad is for. There of loads of people in this world who think they would like to design a website for free and will use a WYSIWYG program.
- DoubtfulSalmon, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4A good friend of mine with far greater experience In These Things than I had very strong words for Frontpage. He never called it Frontpage though, he called it SomethingPage, where Something begins with 'C' and rhymes with 'front'.
I think he got it right. - LanceUppercut, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Microsoft Expression Web Designer is actually pretty good. http://www.digitalmediadesigner.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=43025
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