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110 Comments
- ValDeV, on 12/25/2008, -6/+34Short answer, yes
- danteinferno, on 12/27/2008, -5/+24People still use Lotus notes? Wtf, mate.
- s0m31john, on 12/25/2008, -2/+19Long answer,
yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesssssssssssssssss - Projektorboy, on 12/27/2008, -3/+19In the end, I guess you could say no one ever got fired for buying IBM.
Unfortunately, Lotus Notes is a cobbled-together slow and buggy colossal piece of ***** programming that has no consistent or meaningful design or UI elements going for it. It tries very hard to reinvent the wheel for many common behaviors i.e. Having to hit Reply THEN hit the Reply-All button in the new composition window.
Lord forbid if you every try to use it if your mail file exceeds 1GB. Unless you've got a quad-quadcore machine with 4GB of RAM and an SSD hard drive then maybe, just maybe your inbox will load in less than 2 minutes.
I work for a company that's ditching Domino servers in favor of Exchange servers and it's like all my users want to throw a naked dance party in the streets when I tell them that it's coming down the pipe. - noisymime, on 12/27/2008, -2/+14Every time I ask someone what a good alternative to Lotus Notes is, almost everyone answers with Exchange. Until people realise that Notes is a WHOLE lot more than just email this debate will be pointless.
I've yet to see another system that does email, out of the box workflow / collaboration, provides a rapid development environment and is a web server. Point me to one and I'll try it out.
(BTW, I still hate Notes, but its just that there isn't another product out there that can do everything it does) - cadam, on 12/25/2008, -7/+1910 years out of touch with any other e-mail/collaboration software. Take a ***** database, and attach an inbox. As much as people like to hate Microsoft, at least Exchange/Outlook works and is easy to use/manage. And of course there's open source solutions, as well as Google's online stuff. The only excuse I hear about continuing to use Lotus Notes is the "Cost" invested.
Stuck having bought a Turd, and trying to tell people it's Gourmet Chocolate. - Aroundtown27, on 12/27/2008, -6/+18I hate lotus notes.
- StreetPreacher, on 12/27/2008, -1/+10Most of the comments in this thread are typical, and explain exactly why Notes has a bad rap in the marketplace. It's amazing technology, hidden beneath a heinous e-Mail UI. Because 90% of users will never use more than the e-mail client or really poorly designed custom apps, they'll never know the true power and promise of Notes.
10 years ago we were using Notes (R4.5) to develop rock solid web apps in weeks while the MS guys were taking months and having nothing but problems. We did apps and sites with 100% user-generated content before most people even understood the concept, as they were stuck in the concept that you always needed a "webmaster" (remember that job title?) in the loop.
Yes, the e-mail client UI is a total PoS. But to this day, the platform as a whole is still unmatched as a web-based rapid development platform, and is quite secure out of the box to boot. It's true value remains one of the best-kept secrets in IT IMHO. - jmo14, on 12/27/2008, -0/+7Agreed noisy. Most people have no idea that it isn't just an email system. I would hardly call it unusable. I work at a fortune 500 engineering firm and I have to say that when I first started I was like wtf is this, but when you really understand all the things it can handle besides email and its integration with other databases you really can understand its utility.
- ngmcs8203, on 12/27/2008, -0/+7When my wife worked for Chase I was just as surprised. They live and die by Lotus notes. On top of that they've got security cranked so far down that they can't even add normal signatures to their e-mails without going through 15 hoops, which somehow takes you through Word and exporting to a jpg somewhere along the way.
- jbeardsl, on 12/27/2008, -4/+11It's not just out of touch with Web 2.0, it's out of touch with Web 0.1 Alpha.
There's a reason it's known as "Bloatus Notes". Welcome to advanced 1994 client-server architecture. - jarretf, on 12/27/2008, -2/+8Do you really want ONE product that does EVERYTHING? Usually anything that tries to do EVERYTHING kinda well, doesn't do ANYTHING real well. Leave Email to Exchange. Leave Relational databases to SQLServer. Leave word processing and spreadsheets to the Office suite.
One word: SharePoint.
Integrates with pretty much everything Microsoft and pulls it all together. Kind of a steep learning curve to figuring out how to program custom solutions into the software, but I really enjoy working with it.
A certain gov. agency I worked for a few years ago was in the process of phasing out everything lotus and going with SharePoint. They haven't turned back since... - inajeep, on 12/27/2008, -1/+7FTA:"It was a fascinating interview–especially because IBM admits there are things that WERE wrong with Notes…
Over the past few years, Notes lost touch with users. David Allen may love the power, but those features are useless if people can’t figure out how to access them. It isn’t just poor training either–a proper UI intuitively guides users. (Note: I haven’t used R8, so can’t comment on current UI.)"
Part of the losing touch was was IBM's insistence of marketing Lotus Notes with WebSphere. WebSphere was/is a chore to learn, run and maintain. It was powerful if you every figured out how to use it. The classes I went to had the instructors scratching their heads. \
Although the title of the article has a bit of that Fox news flavor by putting the title as a question but as the last line mentions he didn't really know. R8 has been out for a long while, you can download a trial for free, how lazy do you have to be to write an article but not try out the latest version especially if the previous versions have people who hated the UI. - kwai, on 12/27/2008, -1/+6Due to a merger/takeover my company just migrated from Exchange to Notes. Most of us only ever use it for e-mail and while LN might have powerful tools for all sorts of thingmajigs... it's possibly the worst e-mail and calendar program I've ever used.
You can't even create a mail rule and then run it on a folder. The rule only works on mails recieved _after_ the rule is created.
I think they are still out of touch and that interview pretty much confirms it as they seem to blame the users for hating it because they don't know how to use it. A less intuitive interface has probably never been conceived by a software giant.
The reason for this UI debacle, that I once heard and liked so much that I decided it's true is that the UI was designed by programmers and engineers. - mudgie, on 12/27/2008, -2/+7Was Lotus Notes ever in touch with anything?
- Buelldozer, on 12/27/2008, -1/+6Blotus Notes is a steaming pile of *****. I've administered Outlook / Exchange and Notes / Domino environments and Outlook / Exchange is FAR better. Period.
- Ouze, on 12/27/2008, -1/+5Is it really your contention that Microsoft is competing with Google Apps in the enterprise arena? I assume they don't need a global address list, uniform distribution lists, meaningful collaboration, customizable searches, the ability to create and disable accounts centrally, group policies, and retention controls?
Since you say you have multiple issues with the Outlook client - not the exchange server software. What sort of clients are you referring to? The soccer moms who need you to remove blaster from their kids PC's? It's certainly not the people who work for the company you support.
As a "help desk technician" and judging by your profile, you probably work in a call center, get paid a little more then minimum wage, and advise clients whatever the ***** your script tells you to.
Go back to doing your homework and passing your entry level certs and leave the strategic insights of a multibillion dollar megacorporation to others. - linagee, on 12/27/2008, -1/+5Lotus notes sucks. Everyone at our work is forced to use it and everyone hates it.
- tommucha, on 12/27/2008, -0/+4Do they try to delete the .log files from the MDBDATA folder or something? Maybe forget to run backups?
- StreetPreacher, on 12/27/2008, -0/+4My point exactly.
But the real answer to your question is that e-mail fell under "other things it can do" and made a great foot in the door in the early-to-mid 90's when it was first making a name in the market. Since most shops were pretty unsophisticated at the time, most people didn't understand collaborative software (or "groupware," as it was called back then). But people understood e-mail. So they built a product and identity around it.
Which would've been fine in and of itself, had they not done such a horrible job with the UI. It'd be like like building the world's greatest car, and then putting a butt-ugly body on it and uncomfortable seats. Nobody's gonna buy it, let alone believe it's a great car. - MattS, on 12/27/2008, -3/+7Word cannot express my loathing for this piece of software. Utterly unusable. Interestingly, there are many 'underground' Exchange / Outlook servers hidden *within* IBM...
- WishItWerePaul, on 12/27/2008, -1/+5lotus notes often gets unfair rep mostly because of its somewhat outdated user interface. which is only aggravated by slow(ish) adoption of newer versions of notes.
what this criticism misses is just how robust and reliable lotus notes/domino is on the back end. how much fun fighting viruses and corrupt inboxes one avoids when using notes (vs exchange). and, of course how much more than just an email platform notes is.
now, for those of us who do like notes exciting times ahead, the upcoming 8.5 version addresses many of its front-end shortcomings. stay tuned ;) - miatafan, on 12/27/2008, -0/+4Same with me. I do not find it that bad though.
- Buelldozer, on 12/27/2008, -1/+5If it's "unmatched as a web based rapid development platform" then WHY IN THE ***** IS IT BEING USED AS AN EMAIL CLIENT?!?!!?
- Browzer, on 12/27/2008, -0/+4You hate using it? *****, try *programming* in it like I did for 2 years.
- jhendrix86, on 12/27/2008, -0/+4About your friend, I could offer some insight and yes I work for IBM. I have known a lot of people who have been there for long be fired. DO you know why they get fired? Because they refuse to learn anything new..they stick onto what they learned 15-20 years ago and if someone says "hey, learn PHP because we're going to build a backend for ____________ for this server" they refuse to do it. Enough of that and they'll get fired.
I have NEVER seen ANYONE be fired after being there 25 years who is willing to learn anything. My technical adviser has been there 25 years and knows more about current technology than 99.9% of so called nerds my age. My dad has been there for 31 years and has never once been laid off or anything, because he will learn new things and doesn't bitch.
I've had conversations with my manager about the very issue of firing people who've been there for 25 years. Now I know the situations, I agree with my managers. If you aren't going to learn the necessary tools to succeed in today's world, then you aren't of much use, honestly. It's like all the people I know who only know the PL languages now and won't learn anything else..can you say fired? I can - Fallout75, on 12/27/2008, -1/+5All I have to say is, delete bookmarks.nsf and cache.ndk ...
- jhendrix86, on 12/27/2008, -1/+5We use it at IBM (big surprise huh) and in the beginning I hated it, but I really don't anymore. I started with Notes 7 and now am on Notes 8. Notes 8 still has some bugs (at least the release I got, never updated), but it's okay. I really did like Notes 7 though. Honestly, I am not sure what the deal is....Notes 8 is built ontop of Eclipse which I don't agree with really. I already worked on one project which we had to build ontop of Eclipse. It has its pros and cons.
Anyway, enough rambling..Notes is honestly not THAT bad if you stop complaining and try and learn it. - WishItWerePaul, on 12/27/2008, -0/+3what kind of problems? specifics, please.
- clickwir, on 12/27/2008, -0/+3I really think most peoples hate for Lotus Note stems from it being so different than what they are used to.
You could do dozens of job duties and never use the email portion of it. Sure it's not the nicest looking program, but if you ignore that (.. yea yea I know) it's really a pretty amazing program that has tons of features and the integration level is amazing.
It's so easy to link anything and everything together.
I'm not saying this can't all be done with a few handy web developers, some back end programmers and a few database/mail server admins.... but Lotus Notes is here and it's highly customizable.
Honestly, I used to hate it. Dreaded opening it. But now, I live in it every day. It's managed well and it's rarely slow or non-responsive. It's quick and easy and no where else have I see this level of integration with email and databases.
I'm against the grain, I know, but I almost think it's a pretty good program - oboshoe, on 12/27/2008, -1/+4I was just going to add the same post.
- Browzer, on 12/27/2008, -0/+3You'd be surprised what people still use. They're called "legacy systems".
- clickwir, on 12/27/2008, -3/+6Lotus notes is great. The loudest complainers are the people that only use it for email and are used to Hotmail or Outlook Express. "When are we going to switch to Exchange?" they ask. NEVER. Exchange is just an email and calendar program, it's useless. Go use GMAIL if that's all you want, while us Lotus Notes guys will be passing you by with email, calendar, document sharing, help databases, CRM's, import/export of data from other systems for report building and statistical trending... yea, lets hear a bit more about what Exchange can do.
I just wish that Ubuntu had Lotus Notes 8 in it's repos. I know I know, that's next to impossible to ask. But right now I run Notes 8 basic in WINE and it runs pretty good. There's a few quirks here and there, but that's because of it running with WINE. - timman70, on 12/27/2008, -2/+5I have used different types of email programs and they all have positives and negatives, but comparing Outlook/Exchange to Lotus Notes is nuts. I cannot stand Outlook and you have to love whenver there is a virus outbreak it cripples Outlook/Exchange, but not Lotus Notes as much. They both need to be updated for the users and haver better usability done on them. Lotus Notes is awesome when you have different databases to access and they can be easily accessed without changing programs. Just my 2 cents.
- D0rk4L, on 12/27/2008, -1/+4Unfortunately my company(Fortune 500, 30k employees) still uses Notes 6.5. And I can agree, as one of the primary IT support technicians for one of the companies offices that Notes is completely out of touch with today's software and is just a pile of trash. We're getting to the point where it's a legitimate business move to hire someone on full-time for each office to support Notes based issues.
- bidwellm, on 12/27/2008, -3/+6I can tell you why Lotus Notes still exists when WordPerfect & 123 have vanished and why it sucks. Lotus Notes is a database development platform, not an email platform. Similar to SimpleDB, Google's App Engine, and CouchDB the ability that a schema free database provides is unmatched by relational databases. It exists because it solves problems. Email is the worst thing that could have happened to Lotus Notes.
- inactive, on 12/27/2008, -0/+3I couldn't agree more. I personally think it's a great email client. And I'm fortunate to know a bunch of other features it has (and use them daily). Integrating email, sametime, your calendar, everything makes communication easier than ever.
And teamrooms..thank GOD for teamrooms! - IFScott, on 12/28/2008, -0/+3Some of the posts here are ridiculously ignorant. I could respond to each that is but I fear doing so would profer a dignity they do not deserve. If you need to swear then swear but don't use asterisks, and if you are able to check yourselves to use asterisks check yourselves again and try and find the word or words you mean instead otherwise you come across sounding liking someone who doesn't actually know anything. If your Notes can't apparently do what you want it to do check that a corporate IT policy hasn't disabled the functionality before venting - I'll bet that in 98% of cases it can do what you want without you having to bend over backwards and that the other 2% is not much more than splitting hairs so as to make a negative point.
I work with Lotus Notes and Domino day in and day out and it irritates the pants off of me sometimes but mostly it solves what would otherwise be intractable business problems and the extent of the latter is that my criticisms become singularly trivial. In face of the breadth of the scope of the things Notes can be used for I'd be way too embarrased to nit pick on such and such Notes email functionality. Anyone who has seen Notes true power immediately recognises that and concurs. I think this comment thread bears that opinion out.
I'm surrounded by people who use Outlook at home and say they prefer it (over the Notes mail database) but every one of them states that Notes can do so much more than Outlook that they realise the two are not the same and that they therefore recognise, acknowledge and respect the reasons why Notes is deployed corporately instead. They happily admit Outlook couldn't do the things we use Notes for but they also admit that if it wasn't for Notes they don't know what else could do these things. Some still joke they are 'stuck' with Notes but the joke is that they smilingly admit it's orders of magnitude better than the business problem they would be stuck with without it.
I initially found the Notes R8 UI quite seductive and IMHO better than Outlook, but you know, once I started using it to get some work done I stopped noticing. Notes helps me get my work done in ways that email clients can't and won't. There's quite a gap between what Notes can do and what email clients can do. I think the Notes nayseyers need to look in to that gap but I caution them to be brave because they might find that Lotus has been filling that space for nearly 20 years! - inactive, on 12/27/2008, -0/+3So you don't know any of the other countless things LN can do? then your opinion doesn't count whatsoever. Update to LN 8 if you haven't already
- kmattso, on 12/27/2008, -0/+3It's really out of touch with computer programs.
- wideawakewesley, on 12/27/2008, -0/+3I would say your company is out of touch, considering Notes is now on R8 and you're version is a few years old.
- wideawakewesley, on 12/27/2008, -0/+3Then you have a brain the size of a walnut.
- kwai, on 12/27/2008, -1/+4Of course we have a right to complain. Now if I installed Lotus on my home computer and was bemoaning it's e-mail abilities then yes....
But it gets shoved down my throat by the company I work for, them knowing full well that for me it's only a e-mail client. I don't use the databases, I don't publish applications etc.
I damn well have every reason and right to whine and moan as I damn well want.
The domino server is not configured to allow IMAP connections so I can't use third party applications.
I think that's what the stalwart defenders of Lotus seem to miss, you can defend it's various features until your fingers bleed. You are defending the features that I neither use nor intend to use. For me it's a bloated e-mail client from the '80s - wideawakewesley, on 12/27/2008, -0/+3Add -basic to the command line call and it'll load a hell of a lot faster.
- Pother, on 12/27/2008, -1/+4Well it sounds like a perfect fit for Progress Software to buy up and bundle with their oh so trendy Progress 4GL language and database!
Then two groups of IT professionals can groan together as the decisions to use this old ***** are made by $#@&$#@!!!! - MattS, on 12/28/2008, -0/+2.
- mr5150, on 12/27/2008, -0/+2I agree, sharepoint saved me an enormous amount of collaborative grief. Sure it has a few quirks every now and again but administration is a breeze.
- inactive, on 12/27/2008, -1/+3Even though I have a slightly biased view of Lotus Notes (yeah, I work for Big Blue), I still like it for the most part. It wouldn't hurt to fix it up a little bit (make it load faster for starters), but it's a pretty damn good piece of software that comes in handy all the time. I couldn't imagine having to do everything I do daily without it.
- e2superman, on 12/27/2008, -2/+4We use it at a 80k ppl company (aerospace). Sigh...
- texasswede69, on 12/27/2008, -0/+2I am running 8.5 (beta 2) natively in Ubunto 8.10. Works good, except that my system only have 256 MB of memory, making it slow. But runing 8.0.2 at home under Windows, blazing fast.
We make extensive use of Notes/Domino at my company. We are an insurance company and I wrote a claim system using Notes. Took me 11 months from start to first version (we are at the 4th or 5th generation now), for me as a single developer to create it. It connects to a Visual FoxPro backend to get policy info and to transfer financial transactions and claim updates back. Extremely powerful and have cut down the time to handle claims by enormous amounts of time. When certain claims come in, managers get automatically notified by mail, and there is a complete workflow that send the loss between different departments and adjusters.
Now I am just pushing to get SameTime, so we can have integrated presence and instant messaging.
Notes is extremely powerful, and version 8 and higher looks really good compared with the older versions. Sure, if all you care about is flashy graphics, then Notes is not that sexy, but if you like to perform actual work, it is a great tool.
We have one administrator who is doing some (minor) Domino stuff. Most of his time, as well as one more admin, is spent handling Windows servers, active directory issues or the SQL Server based document imaging system... Domino is not, despite waht some claim here, hard to administer. That's why many developers also do admin on the side, since the systems just simply works.
Another good example is the publishing company where I worked before. I developed a editorial system in the fall of 1997, using Notes 4.6. It is still, in the end of 2008, in use (using Notes 7) and virtually unchanged. It survived at least 3 attempts to replace it with commercial systems. This shows the power of Notes, the applications are forward compatible in a way I never seen anywhere else. -
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