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77 Comments
- deut, on 10/12/2007, -0/+27"Alpha transparent PNGs" caught my eye.
'bout f'ing time - rspeed, on 10/12/2007, -2/+27IE7's support for internet standards from the perspective of anthropomorphized rendering engines. Apologies to John Gruber.
IE7: Hey guys, did you see that my beta supports CSS2!?
Gekko: Pff... I did that years ago.
KHTML: Oh hey... that reminds me. I'm kinda new in town, can you guys tell me how to use this CSS3 stuff I got?
Gekko: Woah, where'd you get that!?
KHTML: Eh. My buddy Safari made it the other day. Why?
Gekko: Aw man, that's so cool! I'm gonna do that!
KHTML: K!!
IE7: CSS3? Is that like :hover? I have that!
Gekko and KHTML: *roll eyes*
IE7: Hey, did you guys see my alpha-layered PNGs? Isn't that cool!? Guys? - fabioromeu, on 10/12/2007, -0/+16"The next feature I showed of was cool fading effects you can achieve through alpha transparent PNGs on scrolling the page. I expect that the visual richness on the web will drastically change once IE7 ships. I am really looking forward to see what the design community can pull off with this feature."
They really think that the world turns around Microsoft, didn't they? - lostboy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+13I use alpha-png's on my site just to spite IE users, seriously though that one sentence made me laugh. Kinda like someone coming into a meeting at enron late and saying "so what did i miss?"
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+15no *****!
I started lobbying that they get the png alpha channel working back in 97,
so now, 10 years later, they have figured out how to do it!
despicable. - SleeperZ, on 10/12/2007, -1/+14Anyone can make a screenshot with zengarden text in it. Show me the source & CSS.
- Gnascher, on 10/12/2007, -0/+12It's nice that IE7 is coming up to standards and all ... eventually that's going to make those of us who program for the web very happy.
Sadly though, we're going to have to support the buggy IE 6 for the forseeable future. Hell, I STILL see (a fleetingly small) number of hits from some poor bozos still using IE4.0.
If they built a version for Win2K, as well as XP, IE6 would fade from existance pretty quickly. But the fact is that many corporate networks run on Win2K, and many people have it on thier home machines, and will for a long time to come and for good reason. Win2k is probably the best OS ever put out by MS to date. XP is nice, but brings with it a TON of extra overhead. Win2k is lean, mean and stable, supports all of today's technologies and will continue to for the forseeable future.
Bottom line ... I can't get excited about a new version of IE until I can be reasonabley sure I don't have to support the older versions.
With most other browsers, you see quick adoption of new versions. People took the initiative to download an alternative browser, and they usually take the trouble to keep it up to date. Reviewing server logs, I usually see about as many hits from all old versions of Firefox combined as I do for IE 4.0. What's that mean? I really only need to test my sites for compatibility in one release version down from current for Gecko-based browsers. - inkswamp, on 10/12/2007, -0/+12Finally! I designed a site a while back using transparent PNGs and discovered that IE wouldn't display it correctly so I ended up having to branch the code out (which I hate having to do) and loading alternate versions for IE. It would be nice to revisit that and pare things down.
- foobario, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9OMFG. The (rather disingenuous)article(advertisement) is like "I wonder what wonderful things the design community will do with these nifty new features".
I know what they'll do - they'll do the same thing they've been doing in other browsers for years, except now they won't have to include quite so many IE-specific hacks to make it all work.
But even then the point is moot, because as long as there is a significant % of people still using older versions of IE web developers will still need to clutter up the code with IE hacks. IE7 finally following (some) standards doesn't undo years of them pissing in the pool. - ThePhilomath, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9Here's why it's not an actual demo, from the founder of the http://www.csszengarden.com/
"They’ve even gone so far as to create a code demo of these in action, which is actually a Zen Garden design. Seriously. If you were in Markus’ Wednesday morning session you probably saw it. But I’m not sure if it’ll make it to the actual site or not since — (chuckle) — it would have to be made to work in IE6."
http://www.mezzoblue.com/archives/2006/03/23/ie7_details/ - NoahK, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9If I can't move the File > Edit toolbar above the Address bar, I'm not using IE7...
- Dracos, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9The author talks like all the things he's showcasing are new. They are in fact anything but new. Developers who take the chance to ignore IE have been able to do these things for years.
Alpha transparency in png has been around since 1996.
position: fixed and :hover on all elements was introduced with CSS2 in 1998.
Everyone can now see that MS has let IE languish far longer than since 2001 when IE6 came out with XP. And for the most part, the Web has languished since then. - theantidote, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8Argh. They make it sound like they're revolutionizing web design when really they've just been holding it back.
"The next feature I showed of was cool fading effects you can achieve through alpha transparent PNGs on scrolling the page. I expect that the visual richness on the web will drastically change once IE7 ships. I am really looking forward to see what the design community can pull off with this feature. " Wow that's totally unique and new and amazing (sarcasm) - blueangel5383, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8a webpage is meant to be posted....not taken screenshots of...
don't believe their page really existed until they post the css - SilverRocket, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8Put your hand up if you're looking forward to re-coding all your CSS sites that had internet explorer hacks which will now look f*cked up in IE7!
- Jimzip, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7fabloromeu, that's exactly what I was thinking.
Pull the wool from your eyes MS, the internet is miles ahead of where you think it is.
Transparent PNG's? I mean, seriously.. What browser other than IE hasn't been able to display them for the last 5 years? (On a good note, at least I won't have to use that god-awful workaround anymore.. http://homepage.ntlworld.com/bobosola/ )
Oh and lostboy rofl.
Jimzip :D - suppaibeg, on 10/12/2007, -4/+11What a crock, it isn't even a REAL CSS Zen Garden page. Is EVERYONE at microsoft a ***** poser?
- dfunct, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7Tell me about it, its one of those features that I've been waiting a LONG time for ... A LONG time
- l0ne, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Not a submission, as it hasn't been submitted. But it's the Zen Garden HTML behind all of that CSS.
- inkswamp, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Exactly, and unless MS commits to keeping IE 7 up to standards, it's not going to matter one bit how good it is when it comes out. If they just let it flounder the way previous versions have, then this is nothing new.
- MalDON, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7Its funny how its still not an Official design. All just a bunch of hype.
- Jimzip, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6What!?! I missed a Firefox flyer party?!
Where the heck was I?
On a serious note though, I don't think enthusiasm has died down, I just think the hype has. People are still finding out about FF and switching everyday.
Jimzip :D - yoshu, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5"Win2k is really really old now, and XP is really good..."
winXP is 5 years old! So is IE6! IE7 is beta!
XP is old and not really that good. Both XP and IE6 have serious security holes that make them more prone to viruses and hackers. - ThePhilomath, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5That's true. I think maybe the solution is to try and get the word out for alternatives. For example, on blogs that don't have corporate interests ditch IE6 support and link to Firefox etc.
Even on corporate sites a toned-down version could be presented for those with old browsers, but maybe this isn't feasible. pizzaz == money.
There's been great strides in the past couple of years, why not some more? Lastly, given enough time people will change, but it just may take a decade or so :P at least they're starting now! - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5What in the HELL are you talking about, man?
- StanrickKubley, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6Ooh, a screenshot! Showing a screenshot as a web demo is the equivalent of showing cut-scene videos to show off your game's graphics.
- BeyondALL, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8Win2k is really really old now, and XP is really good... If you care to try it for more than 5 minutes you would see that XP is allot more stable, no blue-screens except faulty hw.. and if you like brick-wall GUI, it's an option...
MS finally try to upgrade the browser, and it's a free update unless you use a 7 year old OS.... welcome to the future :) - JPhantom, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Meh, they're still behind. While IE is trying to keep up with standard features of competing browsers, other browsers such as Firefox and Safari are ahead of the curve coming up with better features. But it is a plus that now for web designers it will be a bit less of a hassle to design sites.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5IE won't come close to Zen Garden until they make it work like the
real browsers (ie. respecting and working with the web standards) .
Maybe in another 10 years or so their coders will be able to do that. - gometro33, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4>>I am really looking forward to see what the design community can pull off with this feature.
Probably the same thing webdesigners have been doing for standards-based browsers for a long time. - blueangel5383, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4as long as IE is not synonymous with headache to a web designer.. I'm happy with that....
- Shinglor, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Most developers don't waste/spend time making a version with and without transparency so it is going to see a massive increase in usage. Though I did end up doing that on a site recently, I used 32-bit PNGs by default then replaced them for IE. The one with transparency cut 20KB off the page size.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Hey, anything that doesn't require me to spend 45 minutes doing CSS browser hacks is a good thing. I swear, I spent more time implementing hacks than I did designing the site! A genuine thanks to Microsoft. Better late than never.
- eventualbuddha, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3They are recommendations, but that's not the problem. The problem is that MS claims to follow a majority of those recommendations but in reality screws up the implementation. That's why we have all the hacks.
- RandomC, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4"Win2k is really really old now, and XP is really good... If you care to try it for more than 5 minutes you would see that XP is allot more stable, no blue-screens except faulty hw.. and if you like brick-wall GUI, it's an option..."
I've recently "upgraded" my home computer from Win2k to WinXP. The slightly updated gui hasn't proven itself to be significantly more useful (the taskbar grouping is nice, I suppose). And it hasn't been the the least bit more stable, but then the only time I blue-screend Win2k was when using an anti-virus pkg that disagreed with my iPod.
Oh yes, the *only* reason I upgraded was for ridiculous application that "required" WinXP. No, I don't believe it one bit. - nucleocide, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I'm a huge fan of css zen garden. It seem really weird that microsoft would release a test page using their mark up though.
According to the article, they fixed a few simple things like semi-transparent png support and the pseudo class :hover on all elements, but does this mean the more complex things such as child selectors will be ironed out? - drizek, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4No, the safari khtml rendering engine is opensource and is taken from konqueror, which runs on linux.
Konqueror passes acid2 as well BTW, and is 100% opensource. - Kyderdog, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3if you follow the following link from that page:
http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2006/03/23/559409.aspx
You will find my favorite quote by rica:
"i'm really glad that the standards support is improving - it makes my life easier, but when you're the last one to cross the finish line, you don't deserve a pat on the back." - IppatsuMan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3@ryan_merket:
As http://www.webstandards.org/action/acid2/guide/ says, "Acid2 does not guarantee conformance with any specification". It is written to check if browser's parser can deal with syntactically correct but horrible code. No one in his mind would ever write the messy code of Acid2 for a real web page. (To be honest I think that it's somewhat dangerous if a parser tries to interpret such a broken code). - fredinator, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2it doesn't quite pass... it doesnt render one element of acid2 accorsing to a previous digg article
its close enough for me though! - ComputerGuru, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2you mean alt....
- ThePhilomath, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I think he's talking about the website and not the browser.
- Majdaa, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Yup....it's too bold, and the blending options are overdone.
- psyaeger, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Anyone use this PHP hack to display PNG24 alph transparency in IE6?
http://koivi.com/ie-png-transparency/
I've used it in a couple small sites I coded. It works well and is easy to implement. Anyone know of drawbacks to this method? I only test in IE6, FF1 and Opera 8 so I'm not sure if it breaks in others. It says that the PHP has been updated to ignore IE7 so I'm guessing it will not break there???
(sorry this is a bit off topic) - jessekeys, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2First time i dugg a M$ Article. As a webdesigner, I'd sooo much appreciate if IE7 would recognize and implement web standards like WC3 and CSS right. It's a pain in the ass to write IE fixes on every stylesheet I create.
Anyways, somehow it sound's to good to be true. I'm interested in the Source Code of the layout to check whether it looks mostly the same on Firefox, Opera, Flock, Safari or Epiphany. - mirunit, on 10/12/2007, -4/+6Err I donno about safari being as up to standards as Firefox and Opera.
- dpk87, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Unless the submit their site to Zen Garden, like every other designer, then this means nothing. We want to see source code!
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3That page doesnt even work properly in opera and firefox.
~Indyan
www.pallab.net - firehydra2k, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Good improvements. I hope it abides with W3's standards (if they make up their own codes again, then these features would be pointless to web designers)
- lbft, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Safari doesn't run KHTML. It runs WebKit which, while it's based on KHTML, has a few important differences.
-
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