What is Digg?52 Comments
- krakround, on 10/12/2007, -0/+12One word: dtrace
- rasputnik, on 10/12/2007, -1/+12Take it with a pinch of salt - there's been no official comment from either Sun or Google. But it would make sense.
- greyghost487, on 10/12/2007, -5/+15@meltingrobot
and why isn't Sun a "good" company? Is like Red Hat or canonical infinitely better or something? What have they done other than make another distro (or fork) of Linux? Sun has invested ungodly sums of money into innovations like Java and Solaris, on top of that are one of the few making a real commitment to open source.
And unlike the inferior, bloated UNIX clone you all worship around here, Solaris is a a real Unix that is superior to Linux in many ways. With the sheer number of systems google has, Dtrace alone could save them a bundle. Honestly the BSD off shoots (FreeBSD, OpenBSD, would be a better option than Linux).
Oh yeah and you Linux guys play the "FUD" card a little to much. Anything that doesn't portray Linux as the one true operating system is always FUD to you. Most people see right through it. - version30.x, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9Dtrace > good stuff
Also: Zones and ZFS = big time capability - sfty, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9@schestowitz "Or Microsoft's funnelling of 2 billion dollars into Sun as means of killing Linux and keeping up the value of proprietary O/Sen?" Can you back this up with any links? No? ...
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10Hard to use linux sometimes for commercial stuff, I think google realized this or maybe they don't like the kernel developers attitude nowadays ;)
Opensol still in developement stage so as the topic said they "testing". - greyghost487, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10@trghpy & polyGone
Dtrace http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DTrace
Zones http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solaris_Containers
ZFS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZFS
to name a few features, not to mention avoiding the ever bloating & buggy kernel of linux.
wikipedia is your friend http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solaris_Operating_Environment - sfty, on 10/12/2007, -4/+12Good news!
- xmodem2, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8I think you'll find that Solaris IS POSIX, and that a lot of stuff will compile between linux and solaris with no or minimal effort.
In terms of performance, Solaris is aruably a faster OS than Linux. Sure you can tweak linux, but you can tweak solaris as well. However, google apparently has a lot of customizations in their linux kernel, which would not really be portable to solaris.
But all their python stuff should port easily.
And there was definately a deal done between MS and Sun, where a large amount of money changed hands. I remember watching a video of Balmer (or was it Gates?) and McNealy discussing it at the time. I think the main point of the deal was better interoperability between solrais and windows. - daldredge, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8@meltingrobot
What is wrong with Sun and Solaris? - greyghost487, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6@caleb4mj
Sun has a deal to use some drivers from SCO's System V and you want to punch out McNealy?? Wow. Misdirected a bit? why not someone at SCO if your so angery, they are the ones that filed the suit. Though im curious how someone could be so engraged over a simple law suit (that they are not involved in) to the point where they want to punch someone.
Also asking what benefit DTrace and ZFS has for google's TCO shows you have little to no understanding of those technologies. ZFS alone for its reliability factor. DTrace for troubleshooting underperforming or buggy systems. It saves massive amounts of time, which saves in TCO. - ratsg, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6This is good news to hear. There was a lot of "posturing" between the (2) companies several months ago, but with no further media updates, it just kind of drifted away. Good to see things are moving forward with this.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Actually, it is cost, reliability and performance. All are better with OpenSolaris. In all of my years of working with Solaris and Linux, I have never seen Solaris crash.
- nappingcracker, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8@polyGone
"We need someone to think dynamicly and come up with solutions."
Please refrain from using this phrase. And phrases like this. They make me sad. - sfty, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7It's good news because OpenSolaris is a good product/thing and Google kind of confirms it.
Why in the world are you arguing about whether ppl like Sun or not? IMO that's totally irrelevant here. - sfty, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5I wasn't questioning the fact that there was some kind of deal. And yes, it was about interoperability.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5I personally run Solaris and Linux at home. They are both great if you ask me. However, Solaris is much better for the data center. It is more stable, maintains backwards compatibility, has innovations like DTrace, ZFS that are not found in Linux. Hands down, the TCO will be lower with OpenSolaris.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5@caleb4mj
DTrace allows developers and administrators to tune their systems..even production system. Tuning applications reduces costs by reducing power consumption, reducing server requirements, reducing admin costs (need I say more...or are you arguing that more power/servers are cheaper?)
ZFS is just a better file system. It also allows them to scale to unprecedented levels. Due to its check-summing and snapshotting, it can help reduce costs by providing fast recovery points and file reconstruction (via the checksums) without having to restore from tape.
Also, they can reduce or eliminate the amount of customization that they do to the OS because the kernel of Solaris is more refined. Again, a cost savings.
krinedogg posted a cost comparison that you may find interesting. - greyghost487, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7nice graphic, im sure that took a few hours in GIMP to make
- trghpy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6Can someone go in to detail what makes Solaris good?
What makes it a better option over linux or BSD other than support from Sun? - sfty, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5@schestowitz: respectable news source and totally unbiased. LOL ..no further comment needed I guess.
- krinedogg, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5"Solaris is a better linux than linux" - Marc Andreessen
http://www.sun.com/software/solaris/ning.jsp - polyGone, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4@grey thx
- polyGone, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6I appreciate the idea, even if the validity behind it is somewhat shakey. I would personally like to see the Solaris OS with a Google Shell. The both have the cash and the backing to get support from major software developers. This could be the kind of thing to rescue us from windows. I run dual Suse 10.1, but as a designer I cannot get any of my familiar software: Maya, Adobe, etc. We need someone to think dynamicly and come up with solutions. I think the two would definitly prevail.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4T1's would rule.
My next goal at work is to try to get one of those in as a zoned development machine with instant flashback via ZFS...although it would be embarrassing to have a single CPU box outperform the 8 chip production box at like 1/10 of the cost... but oh well. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3@caleb4mj
I tried to make the configurations comparable in size. Even so, the T1 should hammer the xeons in this application. I will qualify that statement by saying that the T1 is not a general purpose chip. It is made for throughput and multiple threads and not just raw speed. It is also bad at FPU operations. There are many tasks where a xeon would be better, but many cases where a T1 is better. It is a great chip for web serving and should be a good fit for google.
As for benchmarks:
http://www.sun.com/servers/coolthreads/t1000/benchmarks.jsp#m
One of the test systems above is a woodcrest xeon, so it should give a good idea as to how they compare. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Just to clear some air: I have run multiple distros of Open Solaris, BSD, and Linux over the years (even reviewed a few, which I shan't blogspam you with), and can say that they're all POSIX/UNIX systems, mostly running GNU/OSS software, with the difference being only the kernel and some programs which you'll never see unless you open a terminal or you're the sysadmin. The KDE desktop system and Firefox and OpenOffice, for instance, run about the same on all three. 95% of the time, you'd never know the difference.
- greyghost487, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3@caleb4mj
I live in the upper midwest. maybe its a regional thing but i find the majority of people rational, logical, & coherent. Most don't get fired up to the point of throwing punches, rhetorical or not. or most dont start randomly talking about gay engineers, honestly i really dont know where your going with that.
on a lighter note..
McNealy is a hockey guy, i honestly would think twice before taking a swing at him, maybe you'd have better luck with Schwartz. - schestowitz, on 10/12/2007, -4/+7I did some shallow research. There is nothing (e.g. publication or blog) other than CW to suggest likewise. It could be overinflated.
I have had short correspondences with DiBona and I have been following Google for a long time. They love Linux and they are happy with it. This was also the impression I got in my second interview with them. The code is too reliant on Linux-POSIX. Why change? There is only a lot to be lost. Dependencies for example... and what about hiring Morton to work on the Linux kernel? Or Microsoft's funnelling of 2 billion dollars into Sun as means of killing Linux and keeping up the value of proprietary O/Sen? The pieces don't fall together. Sun's OpenOffice?? Well, isn't G-Spreadsheets and Writely a competition and a threat to this, despite collaborations involving OpenOffice (targetting the main common rival)? Solaris and Sun equipement (SPARC) is said to be energy efficient and it's the only factor that I can think of as that which would suggest otherwise. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3So, I just priced a T1 and a Dell with new Xenos.
The T1 was $3995 and the Dell was $3670. That seems pretty close in cost and the T1 had more Ethernet ports. Both are going to run about comparably in terms of speed for web serving. Couple that with power savings from the T1 and it seems like a pretty close call. The dell has a better warranty.
http://store.sun.com/CMTemplate/CEServlet?process=SunStore&cmdViewProduct_CP&catid=141650
http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=04&kc=6W300&l=en&oc=pe1950-med&s=bsd
(Added redhat license, cheaper HDD)
The point of this is that their chips are not overly expensive. They would have to sit down, run some tests, and really crunch the numbers. My bet is that the T1 would win out on the server costs..but, even if it didn't, they should be able to run openSolaris on Intel chips. - leopardhunter, on 02/18/2009, -0/+3Solaris has frequently been benchmarked to be faster than Linux. This test found it to be about 7.5% faster.
http://tinyurl.com/yhabqn
Multiply that by hundreds of thousands of systems to get faster performance and decreased electricity cost. - nappingcracker, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@polyGone
" I guess I should have started my sentence with an "and".
True true, got me there, I was going for a comic book guy type feel. To no avail. And.
"Your still breathing."
Tag! Your it! Or was it my still breathing? I thought it was yours.
I jest. :P - rasputnik, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2They don't have to replace their ***** pcs to run opensolaris.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2And you feel it wise to run commands (that do exactly what their name implies) as root?
- daldredge, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Those wishing to try Solaris really should do man killall before they use that command under that operating system. :)
- caleb4mj, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Does google use 1U systems now? I was under the impression they had a custom cluster of cheap PCs racked w/o cases.
Also it would be interesting to see some benchmarks comparing 4 Core2 cores @ 3 Ghz with 8 T1 cores @ 1 Ghz. I'm sure the T1s would still cost less to power and cool. - daldredge, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1No I do not.
However I have seen junior level admins assume that the killall command under Solaris does the same thing as under linux. Didn't quite do what they expected. - caleb4mj, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1http://www.groklaw.net/pdf/Doc-69-E.pdf
I don't think this proves anything.. but, to me, this seem suspicious. /shrug/ - caleb4mj, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2T1s would rule and if Sun and Google could work out a deal to lower the cost of those chips that would make more sense than just OpenSolaris, IMO..
I bet T1s would outperform most 1U PCs for what Google is doing with them, but with the new Core 2 systems lowering the price/performance bar I wonder if the costs vs. rack space is worth it.. I think it would be a close call.
I don't see why Google couldn't use both at the same time, tho. - schestowitz, on 10/12/2007, -5/+5It goes a while back.
Videos are fun:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=1p-Qq86Ftjg&mode=related&search= - caleb4mj, on 10/12/2007, -4/+31. Google should switch to OpenSolaris today!
2. Yeah, and buy millions of Sparc T1s to replace their old and obsolete PCs and and...
3. ?
4. Profit!
Y'know, the average digg users IQ just might exceed that of the average slashdotters. - caleb4mj, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1"Though im curious how someone could be so engraged over a simple law suit (that they are not involved in) to the point where they want to punch someone."
Do you live in the US? Haven't you heard? Here our families shoot eachother at baseball games. Im curious why you don't notice the rage all around you.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/nation/4199706.html
As for McNealy, I don't really want to punch him, it was rhetorical. I know he's fragile and would never be able to beat a gay engineer in a fair fight. But it amuses me to think about stepping in the ring with any of these execs who think they're above the law, let alone us customers who have to put up with their unethical business practices.
These "games" hurt the whole industry, not just gay engineers. - polyGone, on 10/12/2007, -4/+2trghpy - I am not sure that it is better. My point is that they both have the money to jumpstart a new better (than Windows) OS. I run and love linux, although I don't have BSD. I don't see why they couldn't use Linux. I just figured Sun has the Moola. I want to see an advancement in CS and not a company overtaking the market because they just did it first.
- caleb4mj, on 10/12/2007, -5/+2@greyghost487:
Why isn't Sun a "good" company? SCO. Don't know all the details? We don't have the time to inform you. Suggested reading: groklaw.
Their technology is good. Openning their source code, even under the CDDL, is good. But to claim they are a good as Red Hat with respect to the Linux community is to completely ignore the shadey history of their SCO relationship.
Frankly the details of this case make me want to puke my guts out all over Sun and Microsoft's execs. This is just "business" as usual and it makes me sick. I don't care about money or lawyers, I would just ask any executive member of Microsoft or Sun to step in the ring with me and lets go a few rounds. I'd love to take on Scott McNealy, that bitch deserves it.
Anyway, most of you probably forgot or never knew about this. Imagine your primary OS is Windows and Red Hat and Mandrake pay Debian millions of dollars, and Debian turns around and sues Microsoft and threatens every Windows user with a $700 per CPU fine (a la RIAA) claiming Microsoft violated copyright law by including BSD code in Windows at a time when Microsoft was most vulnerable financially, etc, etc, etc. Wouldn't that make you want to rid the world of Debian, Red Hat, and Mandrake? That's how some of us in this Linux community feel. Only its SCO, Sun and Microsoft who conspired here. Your supposed heros in the tech industry.
We won't be forgetting this so easily. - gabeN, on 10/12/2007, -5/+2Hmm... I wonder if this has anything to do with the fact that google seems to be down at the moment?
- afaict, on 10/12/2007, -6/+3Leopard has dtrace. And it's a real UNIX too.
Google is going to run on Leopard.
hehe - polyGone, on 10/12/2007, -5/+2I guess that's my mistake. "And phrases like this." I guess I should have started my sentence with an "and". Cheer up!!! Your still breathing.
- caleb4mj, on 10/12/2007, -4/+1What does dtrace and ZFS have to do with TCO for a cluster like Google's?
I could understand your arguement for a million dollar database server, but not a PC.
The only way google is going to get lower TCO with Solaris is if Sun installs it for them. - Altotus, on 10/12/2007, -7/+3Doubtful.
You have to ask "why?". Any change would cost money and effort and require additional training and possibly resources. For what benefit? OpenSolaris is a fine product, but Sun would rather you buy hardware and commercial versions of the OS from them, and they wouldn't enjoy as much freedom in customizing it as they do with Linux. What benefit would there be for Google in running OpenSolaris? It's not cost, performance, hardware support, software support or reliability.
I'm not saying they aren't fiddling with it, but I seriously doubt OpenSolaris is being considered to displace their Linux infrastructure. - meltingrobot, on 10/12/2007, -9/+5Why is everybody saying this is good news? Everybody acts like Sun is a great company or something. They aren't. This is probably just FUD anyways. I seriously doubt Google switching to Solaris.
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