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76 Comments
- BobMysterioso, on 11/19/2007, -0/+21Of course, if they did that - any error msgs would be interspersed with relevant ads.
- andrewcsayer, on 11/19/2007, -1/+16And Google will clash with Microsoft and Google will clash with the government of (add 3rd world country) and Google will clash with privacy laws...shall I keep going?
- Remmy, on 11/19/2007, -0/+14Can you imagine an internet newbie reading it? "What? Google and the sun are fighting over robots that drink coffee?"
- trghpy, on 11/19/2007, -3/+16didn't sun open Java?
- fhernand, on 11/19/2007, -1/+13dugg for weird title...
- Magnes, on 11/19/2007, -0/+9Java but not J2ME
- Tyr7BE, on 11/19/2007, -0/+9Incorrect. Android uses J2ME. It's just the virtual machine that doesn't conform completely to the J2ME specs. To be clear, Android apps code is written in Java. You can swap in any VM you'd like, and it would still be just as easy/difficult to use. It will be the SAME CODE. Google wrote its own VM (which makes sense given licensing concerns), but for some reason they didn't make it totally standards compliant.
EDIT: Found the reason after reading the article. Very interesting move:
"Rather than require phone makers to license JME as part of Android, Mazzocchi said, Google built its own virtual machine. Dalvik converts Java bytecodes into Dalvik bytecodes.
"So Google can say Dalvik is not a Java platform," " - sodoh, on 11/19/2007, -1/+9This sounds a lot like the "Embrace, Extend, Extingush" tactics that got MS in trouble.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend_and_e ...
Android sounds like the "Extend" phase. Google is not a big fan of standards.
http://mondaybynoon.com/2006/02/26/google-vs-web-s ... - madeinbrazil, on 11/19/2007, -4/+11I think this was actually Google's intent when creating Android. Substitute JME on phones for an easier platform.
- GonadHunter, on 11/19/2007, -1/+7Google will destroy the sun in a collision, its clearly the bigger of the two.
- scruffles, on 11/19/2007, -0/+6...and Android still uses Java, but not J2ME. Coincidence?
- AtomicTank, on 11/19/2007, -1/+7That headline becomes twice as awesome if you read it like you have no idea what Sun, Android, and Java are.
- ThirdPrize, on 11/19/2007, -0/+4Can't wait for this to hit /.
- sodoh, on 11/19/2007, -3/+7What makes it an easier platform? J2ME is horribly easy to use. The only thing I can see going for Android is that Google are using the brand name to push it.
- drmangrum, on 11/19/2007, -2/+5This is a rather underhanded thing for Google to do. I fail to see how translating the byte codes to a different format isn't a derivative work at the very least. In their reasoning, everyone should be save from MPAA and RIAA because they get the movie in Divx/mp3 format. "Oh, we're not stealing these books, we're reading them in PDF format.
Sun should fight fire with fire. Make an app that makes creating Android apps easier and retranslates them back to J2ME. - zydeco, on 11/19/2007, -0/+3Horribly easy, and looks like dogfood. Google was right to dump MIDP, Swing, or whatever other crappy UI Sun has been pushing.
- kungfuice, on 11/19/2007, -0/+3If you read the article J2ME is open if you contribute your changes back to the open source community. However most proprietary phone makers don't want to give their changes back to everyone so they license J2ME from Sun. I guess this is Google's way of giving the finger to Sun, allowing them to have all the best of J2ME and Java without having to give a cent to them in Licensing fees.
- BobMysterioso, on 11/19/2007, -1/+4If google and the sun collide? what will happen to mankind?
- drakia, on 11/19/2007, -0/+3DINAJP? That doesn't quite roll off the tongue like WINE...
- RajAtWork, on 11/19/2007, -0/+3This is very similar to what Google did to come up with Google Web Toolkit - custom VM designed for specific audience. They got away with it just fine. More Java everywhere - better for more people including Sun.
- ThirdPrize, on 11/19/2007, -0/+3Correct. You don't build the basis of your future on some one elses property. Sun fell out with M$ so M$ went off and built C#.
- geminitojanus, on 11/19/2007, -0/+3Except there was no "embrace", nor "extend" step. Google created a new architecture that happens to run old code. It happens *ALL OF THE TIME*; a well coded C program will run on any one of a dozen machine architectures. Google's treating Java the language the same way, and is simply replacing the underlying Sun-restricted machine with a machine that's 100% open sourced. Compare and contrast taking your Intel processor and replacing it with an OpenCores processor. Note that the two machines have completely incompatible bytecode, but the same language compiles to run on both machines.
Google's Dalvik machine has the advantage of being the kind of Open Source businesses like, the Apache license which lets them close any part of the code they want. Most other Java machines are either closed source (very expensive) or GPLv2 (which businesses don't like). The third option opens the floor for competition.
Keep in mind that Sun is still going to get a lot of contracts out of Android; Android's Java layer will run on Sun's JVM with a little bit of hacking here and there for library dependency issues, but binaries generated for Dalvik won't run on SunJVM and visa versa. Some people will love the Android framework but HATE Dalvik, and instead use the hardware accelerated VM that Sun gives them access to; this is especially important in the cellphone sector because Dalvik won't run on Jazelle, the Java accelerator engine built into every ARM9 and newer ARM chip that is virtually universal to cellphone construction. Sun's VMs will continue using Jazelle and will be faster for it.
This whole thing is way overblown; Sun will be happy Google's helping make Java more popular, even if upset that it will cost them a few contracts here and there. And Google's platform is open, so Sun's quite capable of providing Dalvik support too at some point in the future (though not likely the other way around will be possible without a just-in-time re-compiler and a few licensing changes to make Sun's implementation Apache-compatible). - JustAboutReal, on 11/19/2007, -0/+3Another lawsuit for google? I'm appalled!
- Fduch, on 11/19/2007, -1/+4Google has done exactly what MS was sued for some years ago.
- Stalks, on 11/19/2007, -3/+5What is wrong with Java?
- bullhead2007, on 11/19/2007, -0/+2It does but you'll see this in newspapers. It's the way headlines have been formatted for years.
- drmangrum, on 11/19/2007, -0/+2That's exactly what we don't need, another language in a field inundated with languages.
- inactive, on 11/19/2007, -0/+2nope. its http://milkyway.google.com
- jbus, on 11/19/2007, -3/+5...and there is nothing Sun can do about it either.
- wtfpwned98, on 11/19/2007, -0/+2Google didn't choose Java, they chose Android...let's not forget that it was an independent company before they aquired it. I'm not surprised to see them "clashing" with Sun over Java, either. Everyone who uses Java clashes with Sun at some point or another...Sun is its own worst enemy for Java adoption. They don't play well with others. They want control of Java, but their "leadership" hasn't really done anything for the platform in a long time. If it wasn't for other people's initiatives, like Eclipse, Android, etc...the platform would be just like COBOL already. Open it, seriously...or step aside, please.
- scruffles, on 11/19/2007, -1/+3Java is Open. Sun allows Java to be extended. You just can't call it Java unless is passes compabability tests. I haven't looked at Android too closely, but I'm sure its using regular Java syntax that would compile to byte code if needed. This isn't the first time Google has done this. GWT is regular Java syntax that compiles to Javascript rather than byte code. Google ignored Sun's architectural (Servlets/JSP/JSF) direction, but kept many of the advantages of Java intact.
I don't think Sun will fuss. In fact, I think this is exactly the intent of opening Java (and why Sun took so long to do it). - Murdats, on 11/19/2007, -1/+3google shall absorb the sun and continue on until the galaxy is just another part of google
www.google.milkyway? - faithfreedom, on 11/19/2007, -2/+4Google is another Microsoft in the making
- KungFuJesus, on 11/20/2007, -0/+2This article is pure FUD
- drmangrum, on 11/19/2007, -0/+2The Java LANGUAGE is open source. Using the J2ME API in run time requires a license from Sun. Google is circumventing the license by converting J2ME byte code into their own proprietary format in their own engine.
- scruffles, on 11/19/2007, -0/+2Thanks for rewording that. I finally understand what everyone is upset about. The article is misleading. Android doesn't have anything to do with J2ME other than working in the same domain. It uses the Java SE syntax to compile to a custom bytecode. It's a spin off of Java... not J2ME -- it uses Apache Harmony as it's class libraries. The article never specifically says otherwise, but I can see now how one could interpret it that way.
- geminitojanus, on 11/19/2007, -0/+2This is a factual error in the article; Dalvik does not translate bytecodes, it generates its own bytecode from Java code using its own JIT compiler. While this kind of translation is technically possible, licensing wouldn't let them do it.
I really don't understand why everyone's getting their panties in a wad over a new virtual machine that can run Java code; it's just like generating a new machine to run any other existing code. New architectures come out all of the time and replace older ones and compete with new ones. The only difference here is that these are all virtual architectures instead of hardware ones. Should Intel be pissed that IBM is still making Power processors? They both can run the same code (if it's well written), but are completely binary incompatible. That's all we're talking about here. For comparison, Microsoft did the same thing, only they invented a new language to go with it. Google just skipped the new language part, seeing as everyone already has a lot of existing code that needs to run on these platforms; it would be the same as asking everyone to throw out their old C because C++ came into town.
I seriously doubt Sun's losing much sleep over it. More likely, a bunch of tech no-nothing bloggers are losing more sleep over it and are trying to drive up more controversy surrounding Google (because, let's be serious here, who ISN'T trying to get the next scoop on a "Is Google Evil" article...). Having a second machine that runs Java code is only going to help the growing Java community by generating more Java code, and that's something Sun should be *extremely* happy about given Java's poor adoption outside of certain industrial sectors. - zydeco, on 11/19/2007, -0/+2Except J2ME isn't a leading standard in the mobile OS market. MS's embrace-extend tactic worked mostly on industry-leading standards, not 5th place OSes.
- Avian00, on 11/19/2007, -0/+2I totally agree! It drives me crazy! I think people must just think they sound more like "real" journalists when they use commas instead of the word "and."
- drmangrum, on 11/19/2007, -1/+3Your confusing J2ME with java. They aren't the same thing. Also, if you make a derivative work from a LICENSED work, you are still bound to the terms of the license. For someone high on open source, you would think you would understand that point.
- Ryosen, on 11/20/2007, -0/+1The Path of Profitability?
- eyeonthewinner, on 11/19/2007, -1/+2I'm actually suprised they didnt use python actually. That's what they use to run most of their search engine.
- has2k1, on 11/19/2007, -0/+1The title is like some inter-galactic battle description.
- eyeonthewinner, on 11/19/2007, -0/+1@purpmint & stalks
They were almost forced to use java for the portability issue. Lower level languages like C compile down into assembly, which changes on every architedture. Thats the whole reason you need a virtual machine in the first place. Java is far slower take it from an assembly programmer. But this is a necessary evil
@robotbuddah
you don't understand the mentality of open source if you think we're "doing google's work for them" - FishRHuman2, on 11/19/2007, -0/+1Man, I took this completely literally - i was like, "Wow! Google and the sun are going to fight over robots drinking coffee? Holy *****!"
- Error601, on 11/19/2007, -4/+5More proof that Google is getting more and more like Microsoft.
- j4200, on 11/19/2007, -0/+1Except not really. MS creeped into it's monopoly with cut throat tactics on the market. Google kind of exploded from Yahoo.
- Error601, on 11/19/2007, -0/+1You're confusing implementation with the standard. The problem is they're not following the standard and creating yet another incompatible divisions preventing stuff from working together.
- Error601, on 11/19/2007, -0/+1They should yank their rights to call it Java if it's not following the standard. That would just confuse consumers into thinking their phone will run all the standard Java applications.
- JQP123, on 11/19/2007, -0/+1"Google has never called Android Java."
Technically, you may be correct but they certainly don't mind pointing out that it is very similar. A pessimist would probably say that it is essentially Java with proprietary "hooks" for delivery of Google ads. -
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