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Firefox "thanks" Microsoft for monopolistic tactics

blakeross.com — "Over at ZDNet, Microsoft employee John Carroll makes the case that his company ’s monopolistic tactics over the past decade have in fact benefited our industry, and cites Internet Explorer as an example. Without preinstalling Internet Explorer, he says, how would anyone download Firefox? How would open-source markets grow?"

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  • iSEPIC, on 10/12/2007, -16/+18wget, its so small, no IE needed.
    • Tsuroerusu, on 10/12/2007, -8/+11No kidding man, links and wget rocks! :D
    • Hexxagonal, on 10/12/2007, -19/+28wget... did you even think before stating that as a possibility

      1) how would the average user no what wget is
      2) how would the average user no where it should go get it in the first place
    • KAMI_no_kodomo, on 10/12/2007, -24/+10@Hexxagonal

      by putting some buttons on the desktop called 'download firefox' 'download opera' 'download internet explorer' ... and putting the right wget commands achter it.
      Or installing multiple browsers and let people chose? Yust als linux distro's do that....
      And ms dus already that: They put ie and msn explorer (even bigger crap) in windows... So way they don't put a real brouwser in windows?

      And yes. Wget rocks!!!
      I use wget evry day.
      I last used ie... Mmmm let me think... can't remember...
    • saruman7, on 10/12/2007, -1/+20If IE wasn't on machines by default Dell/HP/Lenovo/eMachine would just put a web browser on the machine as part of their custom image. For example - a half-decent word processor doesn't come built-into Windows, and a clueless user wouldn't know what to do about it. Well, OEMs have stepped up to the plate and now almost all pre-built computers include Wordperfect, Works, or Office. Yeah, not always the *best* software is included, but it's enough to get you going. The same thing would have happened with a web browser.

      Microsoft is fooling themselves if they think they are justified in forcing IE down everyone's throats.
    • burnt1ce85, on 10/12/2007, -1/+17Do what AOL did when people did not have the internet, burn firefox on millions of disks and give them away. =D
    • cypher35, on 10/12/2007, -7/+49"[...]
      1) how would the average user no what wget is
      2) how would the average user no where it should go get it in the first place"

      Sorry for sounding like a dick, but SWEET JESUS use proper grammar when trying to make a point!

      No != Know
      They're != There != Their
      To != Too != Two

      We need to get a story out on the front page outlining the basics of the english language for the benefit of the digg community.
    • recursive, on 10/12/2007, -15/+8And how would a Windows user get wget without IE?
    • OBKenobi, on 10/12/2007, -12/+10How does MS get away with spreading propaganda like this?

      What would have happened had IE not existed? We'd be using Netscape and other browsers. And we'd still be using Java. MS is a nuisance, and a malevolent predator that corrupts open standards and betrays trust. In some cases, it has broken the law outright. It is too bad that it has caught so much of the industry in its web of evil--difficult to break free of it now!

      But I think people are finally waking up. There's only so much a criminal or charlatan can get away with before they are caught. After that, no amount of excuses, disinformation, propaganda, or intimidation will save them.

      MS, your day of reckoning is drawing closer, do you really think you will win by using your old deceptive practices? Stop trying to fool the world, make good, honest software! That is the only thing that will save you from your fate.
    • OBKenobi, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5Wget? Why wouldn't they have used Netscape?
    • Rha7dotCom, on 10/12/2007, -1/+25Oh you guys maybe too young to remember, or I'm too old.

      Back in the dark days of Internet, when you went on to subscribe to an Internet service provider, they usually provided you with a disk (floppy at that time, not to confuse it with a CD), which contained the software you needed to get started.

      The mandatory browser back then was Netscape Navigator, and FTP client WS-FTP, although other software was usually included to access IRC, email (Usually Eudora, if you're old enough to remember).

      Sometimes when the ISP wanted to show off, they included a special program that would dial-up for you, and give you a small menu with links to all of this software, one of these little programs was the "ICC" (Internet Control Center).

      So, it's a fallacy to say that people wouldn't be able to download another browser (either eat-my-memory-firefox or any other). There is FTP and several other browsers, they have existed for as long as the HTTP and FTP protocol have existed.

      Good Day :)

    • jesusphreak, on 10/12/2007, -5/+6"What would have happened had IE not existed? We'd be using Netscape and other browsers. And we'd still be using Java."

      You sure its a good thing that we'd still be using Java? Likewise with Netscape. You may not like some of the things MS has done (I know I don't), but IE was a better product than Netscape and C# looks to be a better product than Java.
    • FarcePest, on 10/12/2007, -4/+6wget? All you need is netcat.

      (echo "GET / HTTP/1.0"; echo "Host: digg.com"; echo) | nc digg.com 80 | less
    • Jalexxi, on 10/12/2007, -6/+8"We need to get a story out on the front page outlining the basics of the english language for the benefit of the digg community."

      Some of us are not from America or England. Be glad we can make ourselves understandable in english, so you don't have to learn another language. Don't go nitpicking when it's not perfect, we are saving you a whole lot of trouble.
    • antdude, on 10/12/2007, -4/+1 Tsuroerusu: eLinks is better.
    • cypher35, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2"Some of us are not from America or England. Be glad we can make ourselves understandable in english, so you don't have to learn another language. Don't go nitpicking when it's not perfect, we are saving you a whole lot of trouble."

      My condolences to you, but i know that not everyone in here has that excuse. I find that these types of phonetic errors (involving words that sound alike) are more often found in native english speakers who never paid attention in 2nd grade english class. When learning english as a secondary language, reading and writing is often learned before speech, and they are less likely to make that mistake.
    • KenG6, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Those with KDE could have used Konqueror.

      netcat leaves some header junk that has to be removed.
    • supermikedigg, on 10/12/2007, -2/+0A Microsoftie wants to say, without IE, how would one download Firefox? Well ain't that the funniest thing. Some engineers have already proved that without secretly pilfered BSD TCP/IP code, which, almost unaltered, Microsoft included in one of their released versions of NT 3.5 and even left behind some of the traces of the BSD stuff in the binary, Microsoft would have not had TCP/IP as early as they did in their OS.

      http://www.kuro5hin.org/?op=displaystory;sid=2001/6/19/05641/7357

      Looks like John "Opie" Carroll needs to go back to Mayberry. Microsoft shouldn't even attempt interviews anymore -- the blogosphere is too smart and has a rock solid memory.
    • supermikedigg, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1A Microsoftie wants to say, without IE, how would one download Firefox? Well ain't that the funniest thing. Some engineers have already proved that without secretly pilfered BSD TCP/IP code, which, almost unaltered, Microsoft included in one of their released versions of NT 3.5 and even left behind some of the traces of the BSD stuff in the binary, Microsoft would have not had TCP/IP as early as they did in their OS.

      http://www.kuro5hin.org/?op=displaystory;sid=2001/6/19/05641/7357

      Looks like John "Opie" Carroll needs to go back to Mayberry. Microsoft shouldn't even attempt interviews anymore -- the blogosphere is too smart and has a rock solid memory.
  • ddrirc, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6They should have bundled netscape too then.
    • aposter, on 10/12/2007, -1/+16The whole point was that Microsoft contractualy excluded vendors from bundling Netscape. "If you only preinstall Microsoft products, your OEM license fee is $32. If you preinstall Netscape, or any other browser, your OEM license fee is $114."
    • Grimdotdotdot, on 10/12/2007, -9/+5Doesn't look like exclusion to me.
    • bonchbonch, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4"Without preinstalling Internet Explorer, he says, how would anyone download Firefox?"

      The OEM would install a browser. The issue in the trial was that Microsoft was punishing OEMs for including competing software, forcing them to ship all Microsoft.
    • AssProphet, on 10/12/2007, -2/+0I have a mac. It comes with IE, Safari, Opera that is great for developers who want to do browser testing. And those who want a choice (it may come with FireFox, but I don't remember as I installed the newest version immediatly anyway).

      I use Safari, the form remembering is nicer
  • Tyrax, on 10/12/2007, -15/+4your right, its so stupid, apple should cut out webkit and KDE abandon khtml too
  • google_bot, on 10/12/2007, -7/+5How else can you download Firefox if there is no IE?
    Any Command Prompt people know?
    • md81544, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8As isepic says above, you can use "wget" - or FTP, or many, many other utilities. There was plenty of file transferring going on long before IE was ever dreamed of!
    • snarkey, on 10/12/2007, -3/+23$> ftp ftp.mozilla.org
      $> cd /pub/mozilla.org/firefox/releases/1.5/win32/en-US/
      $> bin
      $> get "Firefox Setup 1.5.exe"
    • Hanthus, on 10/12/2007, -29/+4wget is not part of windows.
      and the ftp prompt is just retarded, for mentally disturbed nerds that think command line is better than using the gui.
    • b_timmins, on 10/12/2007, -4/+13The ftp prompt may well be retarded (or the average user may not know how to use it), however the point of the argument is that wget is not available on Windoze but ftp is.

      C:>ftp ftp.mozilla.org
      Connected to ftp.mozilla.org.
      220-
      220-
      220-Welcome to TDS Internet Services - mirror1.mirrors.tds.net FTP service.
      220
      User (ftp.mozilla.org:(none)): anonymous
      331 Please specify the password.
      Password:
      230 Login successful.
      ftp> cd /pub/mozilla.org/firefox/releases/1.5/win32/en-US/
      250 Directory successfully changed.
      ftp> bin
      200 Switching to Binary mode.
      ftp> get "Firefox Setup 1.5.exe"
      200 PORT command successful. Consider using PASV.
      150 Opening BINARY mode data connection for Firefox Setup 1.5.exe (5225384 bytes).
      ......
    • tougasempai, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4You used to be able to get Netscape on a disc at a store, which was convenient since Windows 3.1 had no bundled browser. After you had one version installed, you could use it to download the next when it came out.

      (I must be getting old...)
    • wicketr, on 10/12/2007, -6/+4Ok, so where are people supposed to find that command? Would firefox do newspaper/magazine articles? TV time? Pay money to put a flyer in the Windows install box?

      You have to get the message out about the exact command you need to type.

      What Microsoft should probably do is offer a selection of browsers when the user installs Windows. This selection should be based on whoever pays do it. For instance they could charge $25 million to get "Brand X Browser" to be in the drop down list of available options. This drop down could then consist of:
      FireFox
      Internet Explorer
      Opera

      I know they kind of do this today with the folder that is installed with different types of Internet Services you can select. I know they don't just throw those out there for free. Those companies had to pay for that placement. The should do the same for Web Browsers.
  • Qdub, on 10/12/2007, -20/+14The first thing I do when I install Windows is download Firefox, and never use IE again. My reliance in IE...one webpage - www.getfirefox.com
  • sstidman, on 10/12/2007, -4/+14Ummm...the web was around long befoer M$ started bundling IE with the OS. We somehow managed to download Mosaic and Netscape without needing IE. They also came in the CDs glued to the front of every computer magazine.
    • aposter, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3Well, the main issue there is that there was no IP stack in windows. When you bought your IP stack software it came with basic telnet and ftp clients. You then used your FTP client to download Mosaic from www.uiuc.edu, and now you had a web browser. I assume that modern versions of windows has a command line FTP client still since they bundle the IP stack with the OS.
    • sstidman, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8What the heck are you talking about? We were all able to download software long before TCP/IP took over the world. People used Kermit (http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/ ) or some other software like it to download software from bulletin boards using the ZModem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zmodem ), XModem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xmodem ) or Kermit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kermit_%28protocol%29 ) protocols. People would download Winsock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winsock ) and install that to get the networking stack. Yeah, some people paid for their network stack, but most of us didn't.
    • aposter, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Whew. Touched a never there did I? I never said there weren't other transfer protocols and connection methods, but they were not useful for web browsers since they were built to use TCP/IP. Once you got your IP stack, downloaded, or purchased, doesn't matter, you got the tools to download and use a web browser.

      p.s. When I bought my IP stack it cost $2.99 or something. Basically I paid to get a copy of Trumpet Winsock (freeware) on a CD, and at the time CD's cost a buck or two each. Also if you got the CD from PC Weekly or Computer Shopper, you still had to pony up the 2-5 bucks for the magazine.
    • koshak, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0That is SOOO funny sst....did you just think of using a $ for the S in MS all by yourself! I've NEVBER see n that! Do you mind if I use it too? Of course, I will give you full credit for it.
    • sstidman, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Trumpet Winsock!!! That was it! I couldn't remember the full name. Thanks for reminding me ;-) Ahhh, the memories.....good thing they're just memories, things are way better now.

      Nerve? No, I'm just giving you a hard time. Besides, someone has to remind all these young whippersnappers how good they have it ;-)


      koshak said - "did you just think of using a $ for the S in MS all by yourself!"

      Yes, I came up with that all by myself. Right after I invented the Internet. I haven't seen that everywhere I go. You can use it, but you have to give me full credit every time. You must also pay me one dollar every time someone reads it.
  • ThinkFr33ly, on 10/12/2007, -4/+19"One of the most fundamental problems we’ve encountered in evangelizing Firefox is that many people don’t even know what a browser is."

    People who don't know what a browser is also don't care what browser they use. The only reason they might use Firefox is because somebody they know and trust told them to, not because IE wasn't doing the job for them.

    This article also leaves out the little known fact that IE achieved 40% market share BEFORE IT WAS BUNDLED WITH WINDOWS.

    I highly recommend everybody read David Banks' "Breaking Windows" for a fairly spin-free account of the browser wars and of Microsoft's legal troubles over the past 10+ years.

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0743203151/
    • csimpkins, on 10/12/2007, -4/+5Very true. They're also the same people who get frustrated because they're computer is performing at 25% of the speed from when they first bought it, without realizing that IE is the largest contributer to those problems. And sadly, most of them don't even know that there's a choice.

      It's an educational problem that time and a new generation of users will solve.
    • jesusphreak, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6"They're also the same people who get frustrated because they're computer is performing at 25% of the speed from when they first bought it, without realizing that IE is the largest contributer to those problems."

      Is memory-leaking Firefox any better?

      Heck, at least with IE, someone might get a virus or two. With Firefox even the users that are smart enough to stay away from things that'll mess up their computer, your PC will still be somewhat slower because currently Firefox is a memory hog.

      Note: I typed this while using Firefox.
    • merreborn, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3"your PC will still be somewhat slower because currently Firefox is a memory hog."

      ... All you have to do is restart firefox, or your PC every once in a while.

      That's a hell of a lot easier than cleaning all the spyware and viruses off your machine that you'll pick up surfing around with IE.
    • tapo, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Not to say that Netscape didn't suck back then, but you're missing an important point:

      Internet Explorer was FREE

      Netscape Navigator was NOT, it only became free once Netscape released (and sold) Communicator.

      Besides, that still leaves Navigator with about 50% marketshare for a product you had to pay for. IE may have had 40% marketshare, but who else were they competing with?

      Just to throw in another "I'm angry at Microsoft today comment", don't forget that giving away MSIE for free screwed Spyglass, IE's initial developers, out of their royalty payments. Spyglass later sued Microsoft and won.
    • generalloy, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1"This article also leaves out the little known fact that IE achieved 40% market share BEFORE IT WAS BUNDLED WITH WINDOWS."

      I don't believe that's true; also, WIndows 95 was bundled with Internet Explorer.

      " 1. The Change in the Usage Shares of Internet Explorer and Navigator


      360. According to estimates that Microsoft executives cited to support their testimony in this trial, and those on which Microsoft relied in the course of its business planning, the shares of all browser usage enjoyed by Navigator and Internet Explorer changed dramatically in favor of Internet Explorer after Microsoft began its campaign to protect the applications barrier to entry. These estimates show that Navigator's share fell from above eighty percent in January 1996 to fifty-five percent in November 1997, and that Internet Explorer's share rose from around five percent to thirty-six percent over the same period. In April 1998, Microsoft relied on measurements for internal planning purposes that placed Internet Explorer's share of all browser usage above forty-five percent. These figures are broadly consistent with ones AOL relied on in evaluating its acquisition of Netscape: AOL determined that Navigator's share had fallen from around eighty percent at the end of 1996 to the "mid 50% range" in July 1998 and that Internet Explorer's share had climbed to between forty-five and fifty percent of the domestic market by late 1998. "
  • tdiehm, on 10/12/2007, -12/+1In other news, denial is a river in Egypt.
  • supergwiz, on 10/12/2007, -3/+17ScriptKiddies around the world should also thank M$ for for their e-Fame
  • mumbat, on 10/12/2007, -10/+3No direct link, linking to a blog, but referring to ZDNet in the description...that's misleading and => spam
    • Hexxagonal, on 10/12/2007, -6/+3then hit up his site and take it down =D
    • chiller2002, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7"No direct link, linking to a blog, but referring to ZDNet in the description...that's misleading and => spam"

      The title is "Firefox 'thanks' Microsoft...." Blake Ross is one of the people that started the Mozilla Firefox project, and as such, would be a primary authority for showing sarcastic gratitude for their biggest competitor. The "target" article is Ross's *response* to Carroll's case for Microsoft, not Carroll's case itself. If it was the latter, then the title would read more like "John Carroll: Antitrust Frustration Regarding Pre-Installing IE". If you read the Carroll blog (and it is a blog, not an independently-written article by ZDNet) you might realize that Carroll's blog post was more SPAM / PR / SPIN CONTROL than Ross's.

      The description is simply the lead paragraph of Ross's article, sarcastic in nature.
  • tansey, on 10/12/2007, -4/+5Remember Netscape? I really don't think that they're thanking you right now.
    • Hexxagonal, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5AOL doesn't even use Netscape and the own it.. there's a reason NS went down the tubes... NS4. I'm thankful mozilla came out as competition because NS didn't become good until that happenned.
    • ehrichweiss, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@Hexxoganal

      Do you not realize that Netscape is based on Mozilla code and has been since the beginning? Netscape is litte more than Mozilla with some AOL extras thrown in. I recall reading in the release notes for version 0.7(or something)"It's spelled N E T S C A P E but it's pronounced 'Mozilla'!!"
    • generalloy, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1"AOL doesn't even use Netscape and the own it.. there's a reason NS went down the tubes... NS4."

      Remember IE3? IE4?

      Remember the illegal bundling, whose gov't probe scared Microsoft, so they decided to integrate it into their entire OS and so claimed they couldn't remove it? Remember how MS shipped an entire OS as a bug fix (Windows 98SE)? Remember how crappy W98 was?

      You believe that Internet Explorer was better than Netscape. False rewrite of history.

      Remember that IE stagnated after competition was eliminated.
  • bitswapper, on 10/12/2007, -7/+5Monopolistic practices do not benefit an industry - they stifle progress and innovation. That's like thanking a dictator for abusing people, and thus inciting a popular revolt. You can tell this guy works for MS. He must have passed their management IQ test with ease, all three questions.
    • Hanthus, on 10/12/2007, -8/+4"they stifle progress and innovation."
      Behold! It's Captain cliché.
    • chiller2002, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4"You can tell this guy works for MS."

      Umm, who? If you mean John Carroll, then yes, he does work for MS (pretty clear when they introduce him as "...Microsoft employee John Carroll..."). If by "this guy" you mean Blake Ross, you will find it clear -- if you even read the article -- that the thank you was pure sarcasm in response to Carroll's blog post. And if you can't pick up on sarcasm, he even says "Sarcasm aside, the truth is...".

      PS~ Digg needs to add "blog" to their spell check dictionary :-P
    • ArmandoM, on 10/12/2007, -12/+3Ugh...blog isn't even a real word. That and it's one of the most annoying things that a person can say or type. I'd like 5 minutes alone in a room with the person who first invented that abomination. After that, another 5 minutes with whoever started "lol".

      If typing the extra two keystrokes in "weblog" or three in "web log" are really that much extra work for people, then they have issues.
    • combatchuck, on 10/12/2007, -10/+4rotflmao u sez so littel but u talkz soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo mcuh!!!1
    • EtherGnat, on 10/12/2007, -2/+11"blog isn't even a real word...If typing the extra two keystrokes in "weblog" or three in "web log" are really that much extra work for people, then they have issues."

      Google search for blog: 2,050,000,000
      Google search for weblog: 433,000,000
      Google search for "web log": 41,800,000

      Language changes over time. People who can't accept that "have issues".
    • davewave, on 10/12/2007, -7/+4I hearby claim the word "blog" to now be called just "bl".
  • cranium, on 10/12/2007, -6/+12At least the guy was able to articulate IE's best feature -- easy access to firefox.
  • bigbird1040, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7What an empowering editorial for open source!

    "John’s argument falls flat in other places, too. He points to AOL Instant Messenger’s lead over MSN/Windows Messenger as further evidence that preinstallation isn’t all it’s cracked up to be. But of course, the value in that space isn’t in the software; it’s in the network. AIM inherited much of its network from AOL. And how did AOL build such a massive network in the first place? Well, the fact that it negotiated prime placement on the desktop for years certainly didn’t hurt. People don’t seek out AIM because it’s a better client."

    Raise your hand if you use Gaim or Trillian!
    • ZachPruckowski, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3or iChat, or Adium, or anything like that.
  • Btw0, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3It's a question about whether egg or chick comes first. Nonsense.
    • Hanthus, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5Yeah, since windows was here before any human being.
  • whalesalad, on 10/12/2007, -6/+2Hah that is so true. All I ever use IE for nowadays is downloading Firefox.
  • FullMetalMonkey, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3That's some screwd up logic!
  • Woodpecker, on 10/12/2007, -10/+1By three questions you mean...
    Question 1. What is god?
    Correct Answer: Money

    Q2. Who is Jesus?
    CA: Bill Gates

    Q3. Who are we trying to spread his word to?
    CA: What? Spread his word? You mean, like, help customers? Oh, is that what I do in this job? To hell with that then, I just wanted to get crazily rich.

    BigBird, that's a good point. I use Trillian, a combo of a ton of stuff.
  • adml_shake, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6Hope balmer doesn't read this site....the chairs at MS beware if he does...
    • t928, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Ballmer doesn't read digg, neither do his kids!

  • senfo, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5A lot of you are missing the point. Sure, Microsoft could have included Netscape, but they had their own browser, which at version 3, I personally thought was better than Netscape (Netscape, at the time, was very slow for me). Even ignoring that, however, Microsoft did, in a sense, help make it easier for the laymen to download the browser they wanted. Honestly, how many non-techy people do you know that can use FTP?

    Think, for a minute, where the World Wide Web would be had Microsoft never included a browser in their default installation for Windows.

    The monopolistic nature only applies because Microsoft had such a strong dominance in the desktop market and failed to include an alternative browser. As such, it's unlikely that Microsoft would be flamed for including IE had they just included multiple browsers in their installer and had given users the choice of which one to install.
    • ArchonMagnus, on 10/12/2007, -5/+2quote: "Think, for a minute, where the World Wide Web would be had Microsoft never included a browser in their default installation for Windows"

      By that do mean no activeX exploits and a browser that is intertwined with the kernel (correct me if I am wrong)? The Internet might actually still be a place to find information without flashy "hit the monkey here if you want our IE crapware" ads. Remember the old days when there were just simple text and graphics and you could use the Internet effectively without needing to beware of pron and malware? Ah...nostalgia. Thank goodness I use Shiira and FireFox on OS X and Linux.
    • ThinkFr33ly, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3"By that do mean no activeX exploits and a browser that is intertwined with the kernel (correct me if I am wrong)?"

      You're wrong. IE is not "intertwined" with the kernel. The security problems with ActiveX are no different that what could happen with Firefox extensions, or any other browser extension.

      "The Internet might actually still be a place to find information without flashy "hit the monkey here if you want our IE crapware" ads."

      Huh? Are you suggesting that ads wouldn't exist on the web if it wasn't for IE?

      "Remember the old days when there were just simple text and graphics and you could use the Internet effectively without needing to beware of pron and malware?"

      Ya, back when there were 9 people online and there wasn't any reason to target the net for commercial interests? Malware exists because the internet has a lot of users, not because of IE. IE provided a great attack vector into the most popular OS on the planet. Simple as that.

      "Ah...nostalgia. Thank goodness I use Shiira and FireFox on OS X and Linux."

      You better hope your software of choice doesn't get popular, otherwise you'll have the same problems Windows has had over the past few years.

    • NJank, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3"use the Internet effectively without needing to beware of pron and malware?"

      umm... you mean the internet is for more than just pron?

      pron drives all new media technology... worship it...
    • koshak, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0Archon...WEll, so...becuase YOU want a text only internet, you think that today's internet is worse?
    • generalloy, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1"The monopolistic nature only applies because Microsoft had such a strong dominance in the desktop market and failed to include an alternative browser. As such, it's unlikely that Microsoft would be flamed for including IE had they just included multiple browsers in their installer and had given users the choice of which one to install."

      Oh boy. Please read the Department of Justice's findings of fact. You will be very much surprised by Microsoft's tactics, because you don't seem to know the history.

      http://biz.yahoo.com/msft/

      A monopoly is not a bad thing unless abused; MS has abused it since the 80s.
    • generalloy, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1"You're wrong. IE is not "intertwined" with the kernel. The security problems with ActiveX are no different that what could happen with Firefox extensions, or any other browser extension.
      "

      Wrong; look up Java.

      ActiveX wrapped C without a security sandbox.

      Microsoft also withheld APIs from Netscape to decrease their time to market, in favor of Microsoft. Keep that in mind, please.
  • Nanobe, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Asa Dotzler and Blake Ross have given their responses to this article. Basically, they think he's missing some huge points.

    http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/asa/archives/2006/03/microsofts_grea.html
    http://blakeross.com/2006/03/28/gratitude/
  • haumschd, on 10/12/2007, -5/+2Thank you Apple for not being Microsoft....
  • lifewithryan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7"Honestly, how many non-techy people do you know that can use FTP?"

    When all this was going down originally wasn't it pretty much only the techy people getting online? Shortly thereafter AOL came along and brought the non-techie people up to speed. But back when it was the Mosaics, and early netscape, the only people on the net were techies, and therefore knew how to ftp...

    just my 2 megs...
  • ToadX, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2That's ridiculous. Obviously, the Firefox team would not have chosen an Internet download as their primary means of distribution if it would be so hard for everyone to get. There are plenty of other distribution methods. If Internet Explorer wasn't free, and you had to buy it (such as in a store), Firefox could do the same thing and make them available in stores. Netscape was big back in the day when Internet Explorer was not bundled.
  • andrewlevy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I agree that this article is wrong but the average end user would expect some kind of bundled browser with their computer. I don't find the fair solution very realistic - to include every browser out there prebundled...perhaps JIT manufactures could give an option to buyers to select which browser to come preinstalled but hey, the average user wouldn't care anyway. Besides, a true "techy" person would put their own computer together (without prebundled software), so you guys need to stop arguing about this.
  • dantj, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Eventhough I use firefox, I dont mind microsoft pre-install IE. There is a case when I have to reinstall my windows XP and I need quick access to www.
  • brhad56, on 10/12/2007, -7/+1Um... Ok
  • arkanoid, on 10/12/2007, -4/+1Animal Farm...
  • DigeratiPrime, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4I wish that MS would make IE a package that could be OPTIONALLY installed during Windows Setup rather than integrate it into the OS so deeply. And applications should have not have dependancies from IE and OE!

    BTW I use Firefox :)
  • bitcloud, on 10/12/2007, -5/+2I think the important thing to realise when microsoft "Bundled" IE was that they were aiming at your local HD being no different from any other file system on the internet. It really could have been ingenius. You type c:windows and arrive in one place and you type www.google.com and arrive in a different place.

    Once the "anti monopoly" thing came about (thankfully it forced the introduction of firefox) the potential was lost. If microsoft could do it over again I would suggest opening up the code/allowing extensions and today, firefox might have been function extention to the MS fundamental UI. (would work in everyones favour - MS retains relevance, other software runs more low level, thus faster)
    • kindrobot, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3That's all fine and dandy until someone accidentally drags and drops their goat porn
      to 700club.com.
  • gunnmjk, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2I thought that surely the problem is not the fact that IE came pre-installed. The problem is that it was built into the system in so many ways that it became a pain to uninstall it if you wanted to use an alternative browser.
  • paleck, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Well, without IE. Put it on a CD of course. Its not like ppl wont get files if they dont have IE. All IE will get them is a bunch of crapware on there PC.
  • kindrobot, on 10/12/2007, -5/+1"Without preinstalling Internet Explorer, he says, how would anyone download Firefox? How would open-source markets grow?"

    USENET.

    That is all, thank you and goodnight.
    • OBKenobi, on 10/12/2007, -4/+2Are all of you 10 years old or what?! What about NETSCAPE!

      N E T S C A P E !

      If IE had never been made IT WOULDN'T HAVE MADE ANY DIFFERENCE TO THE INDUSTRY.

      Except maybe we'd have far fewer security problems and spam.
    • kindrobot, on 10/12/2007, -4/+1Yes, we are all 10 and never considered Netscape. Hmm.. wait a second.

      Never mind, I said that is all and I meant it.

      USENET.
  • ArchonMagnus, on 10/12/2007, -4/+0Next from Redmond:

    It's because of us (Microsoft) that OEMs assemble hardware that can run Linux distributions, so therefore, you're welcome Linux / FOSS users.
  • RetiredMidn, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5The egregious behavior on Microsoft's part wasn't bundling a browser; it was developing a me-too browser, then trying to lock out other options and trying (lamely) to justify it by claiming that it was an integral part of the OS (remember those hilarious demos during the antitrust hearings?).
  • DigitalDud, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2Good, now stop whining about anti-trust.
  • Burmask, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2The point here is that MS built a better broswer than Netscape. They used their relationships to push it. If it was not a better browser then people could download Netscape. Sure, Netscape was first on the scene, but they sat on the technology without improving it. MS swept the rug from under them with innovation and relationships not bundling. Firefix (Yes - I mean firefix), to a small degree, is starting to do the same to IE. We will see if IE 7 can blast Firefix down a few notches when it gets out of beta.
  • Bahwoot, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Haha, that is such bs from Microsoft. When Internet was just begining to become popular for the average user, any ISP you signed up with handed you browser software, you usally had a choice too. Even tho windows came with IE the fact remained that Netscape was the most used & popular browser at that time. Explain that..
  • carguy84, on 10/12/2007, -4/+2Let me sum up the article for you:
    Waaaaaa, they won't bundle Firefox with windows, waaaaaaaaaa
  • IQ70, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2When will Firefox start shpping with OSX?
    If every OS can come with its own browser and media player why cant Windows?
    Oh! Because it is very popular.

    So, if popular gadgets need to offer options why doesnt Apple license FairPlay to RealNetworks?
  • inzkeeper, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"Without preinstalling Internet Explorer, he says, how would anyone download Firefox?"

    A few days ago I had to help a friend. IE would no longer function, it was so riddled with malware.
    ftp ftp.mozilla.org
    cd pub/mozilla-releases/firefox/releases/1.5.0.1/win32/en-US
    bin
    get "Firefox Setup 1.5.0.1.exe"

    Thank you MS for your wonderful FTP client.
    I'm sure you spent a lot of time and money developing it.

    D:>ftp /?
    Unknown host /?

    D:>ftp --help
    Transfers files to and from a computer...

    hmmm.....
    • IQ70, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Microsoft Windows XP [Version 5.1.2600]
      (C) Copyright 1985-2001 Microsoft Corp.

      C:>ftp --help

      Transfers files to and from a computer running an FTP server service
      (sometimes called a daemon). Ftp can be used interactively.

      FTP [-v] [-d] [-i] [-n] [-g] [-s:filename] [-a] [-w:windowsize] [-A] [host]

      -v Suppresses display of remote server responses.
      -n Suppresses auto-login upon initial connection.
      -i Turns off interactive prompting during multiple file
      transfers.
      -d Enables debugging.
      -g Disables filename globbing (see GLOB command).
      -s:filename Specifies a text file containing FTP commands; the
      commands will automatically run after FTP starts.
      -a Use any local interface when binding data connection.
      -A login as anonymous.
      -w:buffersize Overrides the default transfer buffer size of 4096.
      host Specifies the host name or IP address of the remote
      host to connect to.

      Notes:
      - mget and mput commands take y/n/q for yes/no/quit.
      - Use Control-C to abort commands.
  • quickcomment, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Over 10 years ago when I got a Windows 95 PC, it came installed with a non-MS, non-Netscape browser. When I signed up for Internet services through a local provider, the floppies came with ANOTHER non-MS, non-Netscape browser. I tried Netscape, but to be honest I didn't like it enough to pay for it (IIRC, it WAS shareware at the time) and just never used it. Then IE 2.0 came out and it became my browser of choice for a long time due to various reasons.

    People want to talk about IE dominating the browser market, but I remember when it only had about 5-10% of it. Bundling IMO wasn't what made IE huge. IMO, it was because it was a good browser that was on par with Netscape that was pretty much freeware. IT wasn't for some time after the release of IE that Netscape finally went freeware with their browser, too.
  • ehudokai, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1back in the days of windows 3.11 and early 95 when IE didn't exist, I used to use the built in ftp program to go out to Netscape servers and download Netscape.

    So IE is not necessary.

    Granted, many people don't know how to use ftp, but how in the world did they all get Netscape on their computers, back when Netscape was the leader? Free CDs, preinstall by manufacturer...

    His premise is just bunk, but what do you expect from Micro$oft?

    -joel
    • aAnaRchY, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I remember back in the Win 3.11 days, I used Netscape to Download MS IE v1 to test it (funny ehh?). Then i went back to Netscape because IE was taking ages to load.
  • takeda, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1If Windows wouldn't have IE installed the ISP would provide one browser on their CD.
    It would be stupid to provide Internet access if user couldn't use it...
  • Drizzit, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1before IE there was FTP!
  • starmanjones, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1typical microsoft. taking credit for everybody's sucess. they keep shooting themselves in the foot... i can't wait until they quit missing that sweet spot between their eyes.
  • jimmyM, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1i dont understand what the story title has to do with the description.
  • diggnationdevon, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Every OS that I know of has a browser in it, ***** this guy
  • runningnick, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0It's a good thing that IE exists (and Opera and Safari, too) because they create a heterogeneous family of browsers.

    I mean, it seems like we come up with standards after the fact. We write standards because we have a bunch of different things that are trying to talk with each other, not because we wanted to create a bunch of different things to begin with.

    IP is just like a pidgin language that all computers must speak if they want to continue to remain useful. Sure, they can speak their native tongue when they're in their native environment, but when communicating with anyone else, they've got to speak a pidgin.

    Open source or not, it'd be a bad thing if Firefox ever reached 90% market share. We'd get complacent. There'd be no driving force for change. Exactly that happened for the past 5 years while we coded to IE's language and the Mozilla Foundation stared at its navel until Firefox was born. The Web stalled because we were all speaking the same language.

    With a bunch of competing browsers, it's the pidgin language--it's the third-party standard, written by us Web developers and designers and innovators--that controls the browser makers. With one dominant browser, the browser maker is in charge, because he's not speaking our pidgin language, he's writing his own mother tongue, no matter how well intentioned he might be.

    I think it's foolish for us to want every browser to implement the same set of features. But we should strive for our browsers to all implement the features common to whatever pidgin language we come up with. And that's what Firefox is doing -- it's like a guy speaking German has just been plopped next to a guy speaking Japanese, and it'll be interesting to see just what new words they make up to bridge the communication gap.

    So I think I'm trying to say "all things in moderation." Two browsers at 50% would be constantly innovating, constantly adding new words to our common language. I mean, the English language has so many words because it accepts words from foreign languages without difficulty or fanfare. Why can't HTML be the same?

    With IE and Firefox and Opera and Safari, the pidgin we call HTML is the standard, not IEan or Firefoxian or Operan or Safarian. And we should hope that those browser-specific languages will continue to exist, because so richer the HTML lexicon those languages all pour into.
  • Chairmonkey, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Without preinstalling Internet Explorer, he says, how would anyone download Firefox?

    Simple, preinstall Firefox.
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