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128 Comments
- cypher35, on 10/12/2007, -7/+49"[...]
1) how would the average user no what wget is
2) how would the average user no where it should go get it in the first place"
Sorry for sounding like a dick, but SWEET JESUS use proper grammar when trying to make a point!
No != Know
They're != There != Their
To != Too != Two
We need to get a story out on the front page outlining the basics of the english language for the benefit of the digg community. - Rha7dotCom, on 10/12/2007, -1/+25Oh you guys maybe too young to remember, or I'm too old.
Back in the dark days of Internet, when you went on to subscribe to an Internet service provider, they usually provided you with a disk (floppy at that time, not to confuse it with a CD), which contained the software you needed to get started.
The mandatory browser back then was Netscape Navigator, and FTP client WS-FTP, although other software was usually included to access IRC, email (Usually Eudora, if you're old enough to remember).
Sometimes when the ISP wanted to show off, they included a special program that would dial-up for you, and give you a small menu with links to all of this software, one of these little programs was the "ICC" (Internet Control Center).
So, it's a fallacy to say that people wouldn't be able to download another browser (either eat-my-memory-firefox or any other). There is FTP and several other browsers, they have existed for as long as the HTTP and FTP protocol have existed.
Good Day :) - snarkey, on 10/12/2007, -3/+23$> ftp ftp.mozilla.org
$> cd /pub/mozilla.org/firefox/releases/1.5/win32/en-US/
$> bin
$> get "Firefox Setup 1.5.exe" - saruman7, on 10/12/2007, -1/+20If IE wasn't on machines by default Dell/HP/Lenovo/eMachine would just put a web browser on the machine as part of their custom image. For example - a half-decent word processor doesn't come built-into Windows, and a clueless user wouldn't know what to do about it. Well, OEMs have stepped up to the plate and now almost all pre-built computers include Wordperfect, Works, or Office. Yeah, not always the *best* software is included, but it's enough to get you going. The same thing would have happened with a web browser.
Microsoft is fooling themselves if they think they are justified in forcing IE down everyone's throats. - burnt1ce85, on 10/12/2007, -1/+17Do what AOL did when people did not have the internet, burn firefox on millions of disks and give them away. =D
- ThinkFr33ly, on 10/12/2007, -4/+19"One of the most fundamental problems we’ve encountered in evangelizing Firefox is that many people don’t even know what a browser is."
People who don't know what a browser is also don't care what browser they use. The only reason they might use Firefox is because somebody they know and trust told them to, not because IE wasn't doing the job for them.
This article also leaves out the little known fact that IE achieved 40% market share BEFORE IT WAS BUNDLED WITH WINDOWS.
I highly recommend everybody read David Banks' "Breaking Windows" for a fairly spin-free account of the browser wars and of Microsoft's legal troubles over the past 10+ years.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0743203151/ - aposter, on 10/12/2007, -1/+16The whole point was that Microsoft contractualy excluded vendors from bundling Netscape. "If you only preinstall Microsoft products, your OEM license fee is $32. If you preinstall Netscape, or any other browser, your OEM license fee is $114."
- supergwiz, on 10/12/2007, -3/+17ScriptKiddies around the world should also thank M$ for for their e-Fame
- jinexile, on 10/12/2007, -6/+17Do you download the windows updates manually?
- sstidman, on 10/12/2007, -4/+14Ummm...the web was around long befoer M$ started bundling IE with the OS. We somehow managed to download Mosaic and Netscape without needing IE. They also came in the CDs glued to the front of every computer magazine.
- EtherGnat, on 10/12/2007, -2/+11"blog isn't even a real word...If typing the extra two keystrokes in "weblog" or three in "web log" are really that much extra work for people, then they have issues."
Google search for blog: 2,050,000,000
Google search for weblog: 433,000,000
Google search for "web log": 41,800,000
Language changes over time. People who can't accept that "have issues". - Hexxagonal, on 10/12/2007, -19/+28wget... did you even think before stating that as a possibility
1) how would the average user no what wget is
2) how would the average user no where it should go get it in the first place - b_timmins, on 10/12/2007, -4/+13The ftp prompt may well be retarded (or the average user may not know how to use it), however the point of the argument is that wget is not available on Windoze but ftp is.
C:>ftp ftp.mozilla.org
Connected to ftp.mozilla.org.
220-
220-
220-Welcome to TDS Internet Services - mirror1.mirrors.tds.net FTP service.
220
User (ftp.mozilla.org:(none)): anonymous
331 Please specify the password.
Password:
230 Login successful.
ftp> cd /pub/mozilla.org/firefox/releases/1.5/win32/en-US/
250 Directory successfully changed.
ftp> bin
200 Switching to Binary mode.
ftp> get "Firefox Setup 1.5.exe"
200 PORT command successful. Consider using PASV.
150 Opening BINARY mode data connection for Firefox Setup 1.5.exe (5225384 bytes).
...... - jsd8cc, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10No, I use User Agent Switcher.
https://addons.mozilla.org/extensions/moreinfo.php?id=59&application=firefox - md81544, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8As isepic says above, you can use "wget" - or FTP, or many, many other utilities. There was plenty of file transferring going on long before IE was ever dreamed of!
- lifewithryan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7"Honestly, how many non-techy people do you know that can use FTP?"
When all this was going down originally wasn't it pretty much only the techy people getting online? Shortly thereafter AOL came along and brought the non-techie people up to speed. But back when it was the Mosaics, and early netscape, the only people on the net were techies, and therefore knew how to ftp...
just my 2 megs... - cranium, on 10/12/2007, -6/+12At least the guy was able to articulate IE's best feature -- easy access to firefox.
- adml_shake, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6Hope balmer doesn't read this site....the chairs at MS beware if he does...
- chiller2002, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7"No direct link, linking to a blog, but referring to ZDNet in the description...that's misleading and => spam"
The title is "Firefox 'thanks' Microsoft...." Blake Ross is one of the people that started the Mozilla Firefox project, and as such, would be a primary authority for showing sarcastic gratitude for their biggest competitor. The "target" article is Ross's *response* to Carroll's case for Microsoft, not Carroll's case itself. If it was the latter, then the title would read more like "John Carroll: Antitrust Frustration Regarding Pre-Installing IE". If you read the Carroll blog (and it is a blog, not an independently-written article by ZDNet) you might realize that Carroll's blog post was more SPAM / PR / SPIN CONTROL than Ross's.
The description is simply the lead paragraph of Ross's article, sarcastic in nature. - sstidman, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8What the heck are you talking about? We were all able to download software long before TCP/IP took over the world. People used Kermit (http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/ ) or some other software like it to download software from bulletin boards using the ZModem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zmodem ), XModem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xmodem ) or Kermit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kermit_%28protocol%29 ) protocols. People would download Winsock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winsock ) and install that to get the networking stack. Yeah, some people paid for their network stack, but most of us didn't.
- ddrirc, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6They should have bundled netscape too then.
- 83457, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8I totally agree. I do keep IE up to date and use it for microsoft software updating but that's about it.
- jesusphreak, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6"They're also the same people who get frustrated because they're computer is performing at 25% of the speed from when they first bought it, without realizing that IE is the largest contributer to those problems."
Is memory-leaking Firefox any better?
Heck, at least with IE, someone might get a virus or two. With Firefox even the users that are smart enough to stay away from things that'll mess up their computer, your PC will still be somewhat slower because currently Firefox is a memory hog.
Note: I typed this while using Firefox. - bigbird1040, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7What an empowering editorial for open source!
"John’s argument falls flat in other places, too. He points to AOL Instant Messenger’s lead over MSN/Windows Messenger as further evidence that preinstallation isn’t all it’s cracked up to be. But of course, the value in that space isn’t in the software; it’s in the network. AIM inherited much of its network from AOL. And how did AOL build such a massive network in the first place? Well, the fact that it negotiated prime placement on the desktop for years certainly didn’t hurt. People don’t seek out AIM because it’s a better client."
Raise your hand if you use Gaim or Trillian! - tougasempai, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4You used to be able to get Netscape on a disc at a store, which was convenient since Windows 3.1 had no bundled browser. After you had one version installed, you could use it to download the next when it came out.
(I must be getting old...) - chiller2002, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4"You can tell this guy works for MS."
Umm, who? If you mean John Carroll, then yes, he does work for MS (pretty clear when they introduce him as "...Microsoft employee John Carroll..."). If by "this guy" you mean Blake Ross, you will find it clear -- if you even read the article -- that the thank you was pure sarcasm in response to Carroll's blog post. And if you can't pick up on sarcasm, he even says "Sarcasm aside, the truth is...".
PS~ Digg needs to add "blog" to their spell check dictionary :-P - Tsuroerusu, on 10/12/2007, -8/+11No kidding man, links and wget rocks! :D
- senfo, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5A lot of you are missing the point. Sure, Microsoft could have included Netscape, but they had their own browser, which at version 3, I personally thought was better than Netscape (Netscape, at the time, was very slow for me). Even ignoring that, however, Microsoft did, in a sense, help make it easier for the laymen to download the browser they wanted. Honestly, how many non-techy people do you know that can use FTP?
Think, for a minute, where the World Wide Web would be had Microsoft never included a browser in their default installation for Windows.
The monopolistic nature only applies because Microsoft had such a strong dominance in the desktop market and failed to include an alternative browser. As such, it's unlikely that Microsoft would be flamed for including IE had they just included multiple browsers in their installer and had given users the choice of which one to install. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5Yeah, since windows was here before any human being.
- NJank, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3"use the Internet effectively without needing to beware of pron and malware?"
umm... you mean the internet is for more than just pron?
pron drives all new media technology... worship it... - Hexxagonal, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5AOL doesn't even use Netscape and the own it.. there's a reason NS went down the tubes... NS4. I'm thankful mozilla came out as competition because NS didn't become good until that happenned.
- dantj, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Eventhough I use firefox, I dont mind microsoft pre-install IE. There is a case when I have to reinstall my windows XP and I need quick access to www.
- iSEPIC, on 10/12/2007, -16/+18wget, its so small, no IE needed.
- Burmask, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2The point here is that MS built a better broswer than Netscape. They used their relationships to push it. If it was not a better browser then people could download Netscape. Sure, Netscape was first on the scene, but they sat on the technology without improving it. MS swept the rug from under them with innovation and relationships not bundling. Firefix (Yes - I mean firefix), to a small degree, is starting to do the same to IE. We will see if IE 7 can blast Firefix down a few notches when it gets out of beta.
- merreborn, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3"your PC will still be somewhat slower because currently Firefox is a memory hog."
... All you have to do is restart firefox, or your PC every once in a while.
That's a hell of a lot easier than cleaning all the spyware and viruses off your machine that you'll pick up surfing around with IE. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4"Without preinstalling Internet Explorer, he says, how would anyone download Firefox?"
The OEM would install a browser. The issue in the trial was that Microsoft was punishing OEMs for including competing software, forcing them to ship all Microsoft. - ehrichweiss, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@Hexxoganal
Do you not realize that Netscape is based on Mozilla code and has been since the beginning? Netscape is litte more than Mozilla with some AOL extras thrown in. I recall reading in the release notes for version 0.7(or something)"It's spelled N E T S C A P E but it's pronounced 'Mozilla'!!" - OBKenobi, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5Wget? Why wouldn't they have used Netscape?
- Bahwoot, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Haha, that is such bs from Microsoft. When Internet was just begining to become popular for the average user, any ISP you signed up with handed you browser software, you usally had a choice too. Even tho windows came with IE the fact remained that Netscape was the most used & popular browser at that time. Explain that..
- RetiredMidn, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5The egregious behavior on Microsoft's part wasn't bundling a browser; it was developing a me-too browser, then trying to lock out other options and trying (lamely) to justify it by claiming that it was an integral part of the OS (remember those hilarious demos during the antitrust hearings?).
- Jalexxi, on 10/12/2007, -6/+8"We need to get a story out on the front page outlining the basics of the english language for the benefit of the digg community."
Some of us are not from America or England. Be glad we can make ourselves understandable in english, so you don't have to learn another language. Don't go nitpicking when it's not perfect, we are saving you a whole lot of trouble. - DigeratiPrime, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4I wish that MS would make IE a package that could be OPTIONALLY installed during Windows Setup rather than integrate it into the OS so deeply. And applications should have not have dependancies from IE and OE!
BTW I use Firefox :) - ZachPruckowski, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3or iChat, or Adium, or anything like that.
- FarcePest, on 10/12/2007, -4/+6wget? All you need is netcat.
(echo "GET / HTTP/1.0"; echo "Host: digg.com"; echo) | nc digg.com 80 | less - ThinkFr33ly, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3"By that do mean no activeX exploits and a browser that is intertwined with the kernel (correct me if I am wrong)?"
You're wrong. IE is not "intertwined" with the kernel. The security problems with ActiveX are no different that what could happen with Firefox extensions, or any other browser extension.
"The Internet might actually still be a place to find information without flashy "hit the monkey here if you want our IE crapware" ads."
Huh? Are you suggesting that ads wouldn't exist on the web if it wasn't for IE?
"Remember the old days when there were just simple text and graphics and you could use the Internet effectively without needing to beware of pron and malware?"
Ya, back when there were 9 people online and there wasn't any reason to target the net for commercial interests? Malware exists because the internet has a lot of users, not because of IE. IE provided a great attack vector into the most popular OS on the planet. Simple as that.
"Ah...nostalgia. Thank goodness I use Shiira and FireFox on OS X and Linux."
You better hope your software of choice doesn't get popular, otherwise you'll have the same problems Windows has had over the past few years. - aposter, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Whew. Touched a never there did I? I never said there weren't other transfer protocols and connection methods, but they were not useful for web browsers since they were built to use TCP/IP. Once you got your IP stack, downloaded, or purchased, doesn't matter, you got the tools to download and use a web browser.
p.s. When I bought my IP stack it cost $2.99 or something. Basically I paid to get a copy of Trumpet Winsock (freeware) on a CD, and at the time CD's cost a buck or two each. Also if you got the CD from PC Weekly or Computer Shopper, you still had to pony up the 2-5 bucks for the magazine. - generalloy, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1"AOL doesn't even use Netscape and the own it.. there's a reason NS went down the tubes... NS4."
Remember IE3? IE4?
Remember the illegal bundling, whose gov't probe scared Microsoft, so they decided to integrate it into their entire OS and so claimed they couldn't remove it? Remember how MS shipped an entire OS as a bug fix (Windows 98SE)? Remember how crappy W98 was?
You believe that Internet Explorer was better than Netscape. False rewrite of history.
Remember that IE stagnated after competition was eliminated. - findhostcoupons, on 03/21/2009, -0/+1FireFox is the best browser now throughout all the time!
- karamba_kid, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I used apt-get.
- generalloy, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1You would be able to download Firefox with Netscape. OEMs could have bundled Netscape with their Windows installs.
One of the key issues of USA v. Microsoft was the violation of the 1994 consent decree, Microsoft's threats to OEMs who did bundle Netscape to withhold Windows licenses thereby leveraging their monopoly, the Microsoft conspiracy to divide up the browser market so that Netscape wouldn't make Windows browsers (and so lose network effects to the monopoly), etc.
All antitrust violations held up after the 1999 appeal in Thomas Penfold Jackson's findings of fact, plus a few more gems.
But no; Microsoft attempts to appeal to us that we should THANK them. THANK you Microsoft for bundling Internet Explorer in a way _THAT IT COULDN'T BE REMOVED_ (so they claimed), and so making Windows more insecure than it was. THANK you for swindling Spyglass out of the money they deserved by promising them royalties then giving away the browser for "free" (although you customers paid for it in the Windows bundle, just like you pay for the loss-leader Xbox).
Nice rewrite of history, Mickeysoft. All monopolists abuse PR just as they do their marketshare. -
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