What is Digg?177 Comments
- Ireland, on 10/12/2007, -21/+114For once Dvorak makes sense!!
- ezway, on 10/12/2007, -9/+81Other quotes from John C. Dvorak found at http://www.sysprog.net/quothist.html :
1998 Folks, the Mac platform is through - totally. (John Dvorak)
1986 UNIX is dead, but no one bothered to claim the body. (John Dvorak)
1984 The Macintosh uses an experimental pointing device called a mouse. There is no evidence that people want to use these things. (John Dvorak) - MrUnderbridge, on 10/12/2007, -8/+68For what it's worth, at the time, he was right on all 3 when he said them.
Unix did basically die in the mid 80s, compared to what it was before. Microsoft/IBM stole the business market (then MS stole it from IBM). Unix was relegated to a few workstations and servers, and was one of a multitude of other solutions (Sun, VMS, etc) in that space. Unix made a strong comeback to be where it is today.
Mac was dead in 98. Don't blame Dvorak for not seeing OS X coming. If OS X had been as much of a change from 9 as 9 was from 8, he'd have been right.
And in 84, there *wasn't* any evidence that people wanted to use mice. It was a gamble. It paid off.
And here, he's not making a prediction, just saying that IE was a poorly conceived idea all the way around. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -37/+95So because Dvorak says somthing negetive about MS, he makes sense? But when he says somthing negetive about Apple he is a crank?
I get it now. - jokerr, on 10/12/2007, -8/+42@JonGretar
I think you mis understood what exactly he meant by taking the browser out of the OS. He's not saying "don't ship Windows with IE" he's saying take IE out of the critical parts of the OS. A web browser should not be integrated directly into the OS, it should be an application that can be installed/uninstalled when ever the user wants to. - smithco, on 10/12/2007, -4/+38People listen to him because he's entertaining. We all know he's a bit of a crank, and a cranky one at that. But, Mr. Dvorak.org/blog is entertaining. There's always been a sort of curmudgeonliness about him that appeals to a lot of people (myself included).
- Angostura, on 10/12/2007, -7/+34Oh yes, because control of the browser certainly isn't central to MS's plans for Web-based applications is it?
- stark23x, on 10/12/2007, -7/+33Wow. I cannot believe I am saying this but...
John C. Dvorak is right. - acariquara, on 10/12/2007, -18/+41I wouldn't listen to him. Remember kids, he is the one that said unfathomable, impossible things like "Apple should support Windows".
Oh, wait... - Jams, on 10/12/2007, -12/+34Mozilla needs IE though, competition is always a good thing it pushes the technology forward.
- jejones, on 10/12/2007, -9/+28I'm very afraid; Dvorak appears to be making sense, and that makes me doubt my sanity.
- Morky, on 10/12/2007, -8/+26He really just doesn't understand IT at all, does he? ActiveX in IE is horrendous, but it's a lock-in that works. We use web interfaces to two major apps at my work that only work in IE due to ActiveX hooks. IE/ActiveX was a brilliant ploy to protect the platform, and developers fell for it. We could deploy Linux or Macs at my office if not for ActiveX use in these two apps.
- sremick, on 10/12/2007, -0/+15"IE isn't nowhere near that problematic."
You've obviously not cleaned the PCs of many Windows+IE users. - bubbagump, on 10/12/2007, -11/+26Dvorak is, if anything, a click generator. He is in the job of getting people to read his columns. It just so happens that this time he's right.
I just wish his 'on air' personality wasn't such an @#$hole. - leadbelly, on 10/12/2007, -5/+17I normally use opera, if a site doesn´t support it I use firefox. If that doesn´t work I don´t go to that site. I´m usually not that worried about security, but using IE is just too much of a risk.
- Nik420, on 10/12/2007, -9/+20Wow, 3 examples of mistaken predictions in the last 22 years. What a nutjob :P
- sremick, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11"Few users but computer savvy individuals use Firefox."
On the contrary, I know lots of newbies who use Firefox. Thing is, they can install AIM and iTunes... installing Firefox isn't any harder.
Sometimes it's because their friends turned it on to them. I know one person who did it just so she could get a certain theme. Others got hooked when their friends showed them things like tabs, pop-up blocking, etc. One friend of mine fell in-love with some of the extensions which make her schoolwork much easier. Then there is a huge population of newbies who use Firefox because they rendered their computer useless, took it to a geeky friend/family-member to get it cleaned, and then after it was cleaned they were given strict instructions to never click the "blue e" again and use this Firefox thing to do their web browsing from now on (perhaps with another threat that that would be the last FREE cleaning they ever got). And just about everyone has that geeky friend/family-member that they turn to for help. And most of them are Firefox advocates. - sremick, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11So since Firefox has bugs, and IE has bugs, therefore Firefox = IE on the Suckiness Scale? Get real.
One person once compared them this way: what would you rather have? 100 litterbugs in your city, or 5 serial killers? Not only does IE have MORE bugs, but they are more-serious and take longer to get fixed.
Here's a comparison chart that is automatically kept up-to-date:
http://www.webdevout.net/security_summary.php
Anyways, for those of us non-Windows and non-Mac users, there is no "blue e" icon to click on. If the page is broken and only works in IE (and yes, non-compliance with internet standards means the page is "broken") then I just go elsewhere. Even when I'm stuck on a Windows PC, I use Firefox and I'm not going to be bothered by wasting my time to launch IE just to support a site that is still stuck in the 90s. It's not worth the risk, and they don't deserve the support. It'd be like having unprotected sex with a prostitute just because it's too "inconvenient" to go get a condom. - Xopl, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9"for one you've got some real power to determine and guide how standards are going to be developed considering that they all have to fit through your software."
You idiot. There are standards. They are managed by the W3C( http://www.w3.org/ ) and IE does a piss poor job of implementing support for them. - HMTKSteve, on 10/12/2007, -2/+11"There is a necessity for a html rendering engine inside the operating system. Even though there is something better available. Should Microsoft stop including the framework to create windows and interface just because the QT library is available for Windows? Should they stop including the software drivers because there are newer and better versions available? No. The HTML rendering engine is used by loads of applications and I think it's a minimum service to include it in the OS."
Following that line of thinking then EVERY application should be part of the OS.
I need a way to network my PCs... put all the network drivers right into the OS!
I need to make spreadsheets for business... put it right in the OS!
I need anti-virus... put it right in the new OS!
Hey, I just wrote the newest killer app... Hey MS, add it into the OS and kill this guys market!
The OS is the "Operating System" It is meant to be the software that lets your applications run. It is not meant to replace your applications... - Urusai, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9But America loves *****!
- mfearby, on 10/12/2007, -7/+15You must be browsing some pretty crappy web sites because I can't recall the last time I had to double-click on the blue "e" because of a malformed web page.
- swagy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8Dvorak has been around for ages instigating discussions, challenging the 'accepted' norms of thinking, rage on Dvorak.
After all we are talking about his missives, aren't we? - cranium, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7Clearly, Dvor-hack doesn't understand M$'s business model. They try to proprietize *everything*.
With their shift to internet-based office apps, you can bet that those apps won't work as well with any other browser but IE on Windows. That way, just as in the past, using their apps virtually locks you in to buying their OS. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8"So what? He finally makes a prediction that comes true after years of nonsense and then he becomes a guru? What matters is the hit to miss ratio."
He isn't making predictions of what WILL happen, he's making suggestions for it would make sense for them to do from a business standpoint - cwestpha, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8Dvorak wildly claims so many things he has to be right once in a while just statisticly. :p
- Angostura, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8You seem to be on the way to being buried, which is a shame because you are spot on.
- sremick, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7"IE isnt bad...."
Maybe not from a surface UI point it doesn't seem bad. But it's horrible from a security standpoint (compare how infected the Windows PC is of an IE user compared to that of a Firefox user, even if they keep up with Windows Updates) as well as from a web-standards standpoint (web developers HATE coding for IE. They LOVE coding for web-standards, as it is easier and works with more browsers).
So IE is actually bad. Bad for the health of your computer, and bad for the health of the web. - afrazkhan, on 10/12/2007, -3/+9
JonGretar said:
"I got that."
I don't believe you did, but I can't explain it any better than he attempted to already.
"Every single OS or windowing system has this close tie into it's system ... No matter what OS you are using. The browser rendering engine is just as much used as in Windows. Because it makes sense."
Enlightenment in Linux? Gnome in Linux? In fact, KDE is the only DE in Linux I know that has a close association with it's web browser.
Also, I can't see why you would say it makes sense to tie the browser to the DE, let alone the OS. Please explain. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -5/+11I never have any problem either, GMail, my bank, some of the management software we use here at work. No problems. EVER> DigitalBrian must be new to the interweb....
- clevershark, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7Taking a cue from Dvorak -- baiting Apple: old and busted. Baiting Microsoft: new hotness.
- Barnstormer, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7I've heard people argue that the web browser SHOULD be a part of the O/S since it involves communication with the outside with all of the concominant security issues. The argument has some merit, but the problem there lies with integrating new technologies and standards into the browser.
Plus, IE is a big fat stinking piece of crap. - chadu, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8Say what you want, Dvorak is right on here... the state of things in IE land is a shambles... absolutely.
I feel so bad for the sheeple that are still using IE. Can't believe that M$ has let their users languish like this and have the balls to put out an IE7 taht is merely an evolution of the same crap.
Kudos, John Dovorak for finally making sense. - DDRSkata, on 10/12/2007, -12/+18Why does anyone listen to him anymore?
- The_Decryptor, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Teacher in one of my mother's courses (dog grooming) told everybody to only use Firefox, because IE was so bad.
So yeah, the word is getting out there, beginners are getting the message. - gol706, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7I use IE for WebOutlook, other than that I only find a need for IE maybe once ever few weeks. Unless you have a particular ActiveX webapp that you really need, you really can survive (thrive!) without IE. It was a dark cold world before "find as you type".
- compilererror, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5@JonGretar
I don't want to flame you, but you should sincerely consider taking a course in OS design. It makes *no* sense to hook the browser in so tightly. One fundamental concept of good OS design is to make the core essentials as minimalistic as possible, because once you complicate things, you're asking for trouble. This doesn't mean you can't include the browser as just another application on TOP of the OS.
Ask yourself why the user should be prevented from uninstalling a browser. If you can't find a good reason, then you just made my case for me. - sremick, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Well, considering that Microsoft themselves stopped supporting their proprietary JVM back in 2003 and instructed everyone to move to Sun's JVM (which works fine in Firefox), it's a bit ridiculous for Cisco to still be requiring it at this point. The last bit of hardware that required Microsoft's JVM was retired from here years ago.
- jrbrewin, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5he may say things that people are thinking, but generally what people think isn't very practical, or business oriented. This is like asking ford to drop petrol, and only use solar power. Yes, they could do it, it might make a lot of people happy. but really, they're not going to do it for obvious reasons.
- groovepapa, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5I thought the same thing! I very rarely agree with Dvorak, and I'm wondering if my anti-MS bias is skewing my judgement of this article...but first impression seems very true. MS makes $0 on IE and spends billions developing and maintaining it. Hmm.
- ilitirit, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5No matter what Dvorak or anyone else says, removing IE from Windows right now would hurt Microsoft and consumers far more than leaving it there.
There are a huge number of applications that depend of IE being present in the system. Remove IE, and a lot of apps will just stop working. Each time you see HTML being rendered in an app, it's probably IE (think help files, "Welcome screens" etc).
One BIG advantage that IE has over nearly every other browser out there is COM. (ironically, because of poor design, it's also the source of the most exploits)
Have you ever tried scripting Opera or FireFox from another application? Probably not, and if you have, you probably didn't get very far either. A large number of businesses rely on this sort of functionality for leverage. Do you have a web-app that needs to be integrated into a desktop app? Put an IE control on Window et voila!
Of course there are ways around this, but the COM nature of IE provides an easy solution. And because IE is installed on every Windows machine, it has the benefit of lowering deployment costs and virtually guaranteed forward/backward compatibility (because COM interfaces never change).
Sure, as far as browsers go IE is a POS and there are a potential problems with the current design as well, but people shouldn't overlook the advantages. - LoungeActx, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6Yeah to bad now with Active X controls you have to click to activate them. A major pain in the ass. Especially for web developers that use Flash.
- mpancha, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Funny how dvorak makes sense when he discusses something negative about MS, but when he makes any comment (positive or negative) regarding Apple, he's tarred and feathered.
digg for a nice change of pace, good article by dvorak, good find.
ChronoCracker >> Dvorak says what he wants, regardless of company. You'll find just as many anti Apple articles on digg as you will MS. I do however agree with the comment about blog spam. Its the nature of a growing digg community unfortunately. Too many people who are on teh bandwagon, not enough of those who need to be. - groovepapa, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I've noticed that ever since my university installed Firefox in all the labs and suggested/instructed everyone to use it instead of IE, there are lots of computer "neophytes" using it instead of IE.
- evilTak, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4'"normal" every day users should not give a crap about IE bugs and exploits'
No, they should just let their PCs be assimilated into the botnet... - rockdave, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4IE7 is almost more annoying than IE6. You get the same crappy browsing experience AND you have to waste time getting used to the new interface.
Firefox and Opera have at least been consistent with their interface for a while. MS should definitely consider buying one of them.
I don't like the fact that every window I open is dependent on IE. That's definitely not how it is on a Mac... and it's definitely not how it's supposed to be. - incognegro, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6I swear, if one more person says "John C. Dvorak" or "Robert X. Cringely", I'm gonna have to slap a bitch
- scarper86, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4"The OS is the "Operating System" It is meant to be the software that lets your applications run. It is not meant to replace your applications..."
Exactly, and MS has already stated that they are untying IE from the OS in Vista so the drum-bangers are playing solo. - webcrumb, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4"Wow, 3 examples of mistaken predictions in the last 22 years. What a nutjob :P"
They weren't predictions, they were statements of fact at that point in time.
But I do I get your point. :) - sremick, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3"If IE is #1 in terms of usage, it means that people do like it."
or it means they just use whatever came with their computer, they don't understand the concept of "browser", they think "blue e" = "the internet", installing new software is a scary concept for them, they're lazy, etc etc etc.
Your assumption is false. -
Show 51 - 100 of 174 discussions
Digg is coming to a city (and computer) near you! Check out all the details on our 
© Digg Inc. 2009
— Content created and posted by Digg users is