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- fearofcorners, on 10/12/2007, -1/+44Title refers to a windows "tax" not tax as in government tax. It is suggesting that the windows license is like a tax when buying a new pc - mandatory.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+38Well, when I called Acer and said that I wanted the $120 back from the XP Pro license they gave me. I told them that the sirst thing I did was wipe the HDD and Install Linux.
They said "Oh, we don't support Linux."
I said "That's OK, I just want $120 back for software that I never wanted, nor used. I belive this is an acceptable claim, considering the text of the Microsoft Windows XP Pro EULA."
They said "Well how did you read the EULA without using Windows?" (no joke. what an idiot.)
They eventually transferred me to some dude in charge of US sales, and when he said it was my fault for uninstalling Windows, and it violated their terms of use or some ***** like that. - goat77, on 10/12/2007, -1/+37This is really, really awesome. Especially for windows users who already HAVE legal copies of superior versions.
- dawgma, on 10/12/2007, -0/+36@bikini
You should conference call all three managers with Skype, or something. Get them all on the phone together, tell them you're recording the phone call for "quality assurance" and make them talk to each other to figure out how to get the refund.
And then post the conversation on digg, of course. - jivemasta, on 10/12/2007, -2/+30That's pretty cool, I never thought you could do that. Although when I bought my laptop I welcomed the included windows license(my first legal version).
- mthode, on 10/12/2007, -1/+27does this work in the US?
- ericnmu, on 10/12/2007, -1/+27I got EB Games to issue a refund for Battlefield 2142 because after opening the game I did not accept the EULA (which is only readable after opening the box).
I didn't even have to argue, customer support said no problem. - bikini, on 10/12/2007, -0/+20i've tried doing that three different times.
on the most recent occasion, i called Acer, the laptop manufacturer. they said i had to call newegg.com. after calling newegg, they said i had to call microsoft, who in turn told me i had to call the manufacturer.
i called everyone back and spoke to mangaers at each place and they all kept pointing me in another direction... no one could give me any answers.
i spent a couple hours on hold and playing solitaire and got no where. maybe someone else not using newegg or acer has had better success. - Adoozie, on 10/12/2007, -1/+18Windows costs money, even when it's bundled with a computer. Is it wrong to want your money back for a product you don't want and won't use? The EULA allows it.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+15once Asus gets serious about selling barebones laptops, we can all start building our own without having to worry about this.
- 0x0000ff, on 10/12/2007, -0/+15hmmm... you must have some kind of incredible magic deal with Dell, as i'm a premium Dell partner who orders well over 200 Precision workstations a year and they've never been able to unbundle the OS apart from server orders.
You can't even order the system without a monitor let alone without an OS.
We talking about the same Dell corporation? - CircleFusion, on 10/12/2007, -1/+15@derek20cali
ok..so your logic is that if someone is trying to save money by not paying for something that they aren't using, then they hate Microsoft and they need to have sex, oh and they masterbate with their friends in a circle.
What a strange mind you have. - Sk8SkaNJ, on 10/12/2007, -1/+15If I know you could do that I would have done it when I bought my laptop.
- PhantomZmoove, on 10/12/2007, -0/+14I have requested machines without an OS before from Dell, and have been turned down each time. Granted, its been a few years since my last try, which is why I don't buy from them anymore.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+16*golf clap*
- wilf_brim, on 10/12/2007, -2/+15Booya for him. I hate these shrink wrap licenses. For instance, the license agreement in most software says that you will get a refund if you don't agree, but that is near impossible as a practical matter. Another reason I can't understand why these EULAs have been found enforceable.
- tagawa, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11Sorry, carapi, but your pop ice argument is irrelevant.
When you buy pop ices there is no fine print that says you can get a refund for the ones you don't eat. However, to use Windows you have to agree to the EULA which states that if you don't agree, you can have a refund.
The guy is totally within his rights and Dell are following the letter of the law. - fohat, on 10/12/2007, -1/+12Did you RTFA?
- kepeli999, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11I have a reseller agreement with Dell. I sell less than 10 a year, but they assigned me an account manager so I order over an 800 number and I get more personal service. I have purchase Dells without the operating system. They normally knock off about $80.
- mDot, on 10/12/2007, -3/+13Just so you're aware, the phrase "Windows Tax" or its more popular form "Microsoft Tax" does not allude to the government imposed sales tax on everything you buy. Instead, it refers to the fact that buying a computer at a reasonable price is neigh imposable without paying for a Windows license; even if the user has no intention of ever using Windows.
- troublemaker, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10This has *nothing* to do with linux fanboyism.
I have one valid license for XP Pro. If I want to replace my current desktop, I'm NOT buying XP Pro all over again. ***** no. I'm reusing my current (and 100% valid) license. - mrgreen4242, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8You're a couple years behind this effort. The early people who tried this, and brought it to small claims court, were all told "the request for $99 or $120 for the unused Windows license isn't valid because that's not what we, nor the user, paid for the license". So, the user asks exactly what he did pay for it, and the response is always "we are contractually bound by MS to not disclose our OEM pricing structure, so we can't tell you". The final result has been, in a few cases, judges ruling that if the defendant (manufacturer) can't prove that the actual sum of damages is something other than the verifiable amount the plaintiff (user) has declared they have to pony up the full amount.
I'd give you links for all of this, but I'm at work and don't have the time. Try Google. - fohat, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8You're still paying for Windows no matter what unless you build your own machine. In which case, your point is completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand. And yes, you are getting dugg down. Silly goose...
- sunnyd, on 10/12/2007, -4/+11"Some computer users use the phrase Windows Tax to describe the hidden cost of unwanted operating systems when bought with new computers. This is a pun on the historical phenomenon, the window tax."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Tax - Somniis, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7He only got the refund because the EULA was reworded a little differently.
Online EULA:
"You agree to be bound by the terms of this EULA by installing, copying, or otherwise using the software. If you do not agree, do not install, copy, or use the software; you may return it to your place of purchase for a full refund, if applicable."
Notice the "if applicable". That pretty much means the place of purchase does not have to refund anything.
His EULA:
"If you do not agree to the terms of this EULA, you may not use or copy the software, and should promptly contact manufacturer for instructions on return of the unused product(s) for a refund in accordance with manufacturer's return policies."
This explicitly states that a refund is granted if Windows is not used past the point of reading the EULA. So, yes, since Dell has a return policy, and since he had proper documentation (the pictures), naturally a refund would be granted. - hydrosan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6actually no he cannot, i believe somewhere in the EULA it states that a valid key does not equal a valid LICENSE
- CircleFusion, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7fohat, I think he has a valid point.
However, that would be an issue of Dell's return policy rather than an issue with the EULA. In this particular case, he was able to return the software because of the wording of the EULA and because of Dell's return policy.
If I were a manufacturer, I would be upset at customers knowingly paying for things and returning them. HOWEVER, I also wouldn't limit their ability to unbundle things. - zebstah, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8Theoretically, yes. Technically, it would be difficult. Under _ProCD_, the court did say that the fact that the ability to return software if you don't agree to the terms (in a money now, terms later scenario) is available (regardless if explicitly stated afair) is part of what legitimizes such contracts (licenses). The problem is, unlike retail software where you pay for the product directly, the so-called Microsoft tax is absorbed into the overall price of the product. While I do believe one should be entitled to a refund if you do not agree to the terms of use, it seems likely that the refund would need to be the OEM's per license cost, not the retail cost, to be fair to all parties involved. Obviously, not too many people are that concerned or there would be more of an effort made. Start with the OEM and then work you way to the manufacturer. If that doesn't work, try small claims court.
- ohmar, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5So, its ok as long as you dont get caught?
- typobox43, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Am I the only one who finds an interesting circularity in the EULA specifying that you can get a refund... if you don't accept the EULA?
- Phantom784, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5He's just quoting the wikipedia article that calls it a pun. Of course, you could change it if you felt that it should be called an allusion.
- prammy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4@zebov:
Unfortunately even if I don't want Windows, I am being forced to pay for it. No matter how much it costs a business to develop a software, they are not guaranteed my purchase. If I buy a laptop and do not need Windows, there is no reason I should be forced to buy it. Similarly if I do end up puchasing a Mac, I should not be forced to buy OSX either.
With desktops I am a bit better off since I can either build my own or buy it from a local vendor who does not preinstall an OS on it. However with laptops I am out of luck for the most part. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Wait, so you actually went and bought Battlefield 2142 at EB but then the EULA convinced you it wasn't worth the price? I just have one question... Where'd you seed the torrent?
- waitingforjune, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3The argument (albeit a weak one) against piracy taking money away from the people who developed it is that most software I pirate is too expensive for me to buy normally. I can not throw down $450 or whatever for Photoshop, however much for Flash, however much for 3DStudioMax, however much for Finale, etc. Thus, if I didn't download these programs, I would just go without. Now, if I download these programs now, I may be willing to pay for them later down the road when I am not a poor college student. Therefore, piracy may actually be a no-so-bad thing for developers in cases like this. The fact that I would otherwise goes without means they're not really losing a sale, and they may be gaining a future sale.
That being said, if it's within your means, don't be an *****, pay for your software or go FOSS (what I try to do first). - lane.montgomery, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3They probably had to pay him the full amount because the actual price they pay for the license is wrapped in an NDA.
- LesterKing, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Sunny D, It's not a pun, it's an allusion.
- CircleFusion, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3@zebstah
I see your point, but don't you think the retailers increase the price of Windows to retail when they bundle it? It's difficult to tell because they don't itemize the price. - ericnmu, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Well, I got it as a gift. I was pretty upset with the sheer amount of bugs and advertising, so I called EB saying I did not agree with the EULA. The offered a refund after returning the game. And yes, I still have the image and key.
- TheTankengine, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Wrong. It would not be like your example at all. Windows is not a physical product. It is a license to use software. They are not comparable.
And it is certainly possible to go buy a TV without a remote from pretty much any store and any brand name of TV. It is NOT possible to easily buy a new laptop from any major manufacturer without Windows included in the price. - AndrewLZ, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@miznig: amen. I'm using an Asus Z70va purchased from C9Tech a year ago. Love the laptop. No stupid Windows Tax.
The only problem I have with it is that it's too future proof, I have absolutely no reason to buy a Core 2 Duo Macbook Pro :(
Other than that, it's a great laptop! - Dignin, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Copy of a letter where guy presumably got his money back. http://www.linuxworld.com/community/?q=node/241
- hiscity, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Dear EULA, (...aka "software vendor")
You've made some assumptions that we need to talk more about.
When I press the "I agree" button, I'm not agreeing to be bound by your license. I'm only agreeing to check out your software to see if it performs without bugs and will work acceptably for my uses.
If it does not work without bugs or compatibility problems, your license statement is clearly void. If you do not agree to abide by the terms of my trial test, please refund the entire payment given to you, plus tax as appropriate, plus the cost of $500 to cover labor, expenses, and recovery costs associated with trying your software.
For as long as payment is not returned, then I will seize other software provided by your manufacturer or distributor that may be useful to me, contingent on testing -- until such time as payment is returned to me.
Non-response on your part will be considered consent.
Thank You!
-- The Consumer - Byroncoughlin, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Ahm yep that'd be it.
- Doriath, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Bah
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Your idea about voiding the contract is nice in theory, but not applicable. The issue here is with DELL not with M$. Dell is the business from whom you need to demand a refund. The EULA contract is with M$. The only reason the EULA enters the picture here is that it defines how you agree to use the product - or not use it. You can't void the EULA and still use the product, so your idea is pointless. If Dell doesn't grant you a refund, you can still decline the EULA all you like but it won't matter... you still paid for bloatware.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Circle...they probably do increase the price (but not by as much as your would probably think) but what you pay etra for it when you buy a new computer is still well below what someone pays for it separately.
- peerk, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Interesting.
I am surprised he was refunded a full $105. Dell probably pays a fraction of that. - HyperHacker, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1carapi, you should have given the strawberry ones to me. :( I'm getting hungry just thinking about them.
- iluvdrbonner, on 10/12/2007, -4/+5What is to stop him from using the key after getting the refund? Would they ever know? Either way its very cool.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Actually yeah he can, because he can download a corporate volume licensed version.
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