What is Digg?262 Comments
- dmcaudio, on 06/19/2009, -19/+243Dear *insert my company name here*,
The web page that hosts the mail tutorial does not display well using IE8. Suggestions that you use Firefox imply you don't care to support other popular browsers.
Eric
<e-mail address omitted>
Dear customer,
At *****, we strive to make our video tutorials accessible to all parties. In this effort, we have created our website following strict standards set forth by W3C, the World Wide Web Consortium. These standards strive to provide a constant web surfing experience for all users, by establishing rules on how pages should be coded, and how internet browsers (such as IE and Firefox) should render the established code.
The Acid3 test comes from the Web Standards project, which checks how well a web browser follows the established W3C standards. Browsers like Firefox, Opera, Chrome, Konqueror, and Safari all score rather highly on the test, with a minimum score on that set at being 72%. Internet Explorer 8 scores a horrific 20%. IE 7, 14%. IE 6 scores a 12%.
Our recommendation that customers not use IE is not out of laziness on behalf of our developers, nor out of complacency for our customers. It's simply because users of Internet Explorer, it appears, will always have a crippled internet viewing experience due to Microsoft's negligence of the W3C standards. Most websites need special conditional code that runs only if it detects a browser as being IE, which modified the W3C standard code and interjects "Microsoft-friendly" code. The pages you were describing displayed fine using IE6 and IE7, but it indeed appears that they fail to render properly on IE 8. I would like to reiterate, that no other popular browser has these problems, only IE.
By encouraging the install of Firefox, we are promoting a far superior product in terms of standards, reliability, and security. Our developers are currently working on revising the tutorials web site to be more IE 8 friendly, since unfortunately Microsoft listed the upgrade from 7 to 8 as "Critical" and is forcing it upon their customers. We do not have a current ETA on that revision, as it needs to be tested throughly for compliance as well in IE 7 and IE 6 (which is not an easy feat) as well as Standards Compatible browsers. In the meantime, we have inserted some code that forces IE 8 to render pages according to the IE 7 engine through Compatibility Mode.
THE FOLLOWING STATEMENTS ARE OF MY OWN PERSONAL OPINION AND IN NO WAY REFLECTS OPINIONS OR POLICIES HELD BY *****.COM: Simply the fact that Internet Explorer 8 needs to have a compatibility mode should tell people that Microsoft knows that they've botched things in this latest release in how it displays pages that were coded according to W3C standards, with special code for previous versions of IE. Here is an article specifying over 2400 major web sites that IE 8 couldn't render properly at the writing of the article, including microsoft.com (ironic), yahoo.com, ebay, facebook.com, flickr, dell.com, and others. http://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=2072
Microsoft.com is still using the same way we are to force the compatibility view when people visit using IE 8, which is <meta http-equiv="X-UA-Compatible" content="IE=EmulateIE7" /> Even they can't fix their pages for IE 8.
For more information on the Acid3 test and standards compatibility, please visit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid3
Regards, - FirstOne1, on 06/18/2009, -9/+171Unless MS switches its rendering engine, IE will always be playing catch up.
- dmcaudio, on 06/19/2009, -10/+147i liked the part where Internet Explorer sucks.
- inactive, on 06/19/2009, -7/+114I am the mirror savior so this comment will receive marginal thumbs up.
http://rorr.im/digg.com/software/busting_ie8_s_myt ... - phike, on 06/19/2009, -8/+88Note to Microsoft: I can tolerate inferiority, however I will not tolerate you lying about it.
- toekneebullard, on 06/19/2009, -1/+78Wow, I didn't know that even Microsoft.com has to use IE hacks. That is downright pitiful.
- JackSchittt, on 06/19/2009, -6/+75Did we really need yet another article telling us that microsoft's "Mythbusting" was complete *****?
The "study" was sponsored by Microsoft. It was paid for by Microsoft. Should it be surprising to ANYONE that Microsoft gets all the glowing reviews? - Nephersir7, on 06/19/2009, -38/+102FTA: "Windows 7 is the best Windows yet (unlike Vista)"
No. Berfore Windows 7, Vista was the best Windows yet.
best != most successful - Voxxov, on 06/19/2009, -2/+45I would hope that the newest version is the best... It would be really sad if Microsoft came out and said "Here's the new windows seven, its a close second to XP, not our best work up to this point but we hope you like it anyways."
- InetRoadkill, on 06/19/2009, -3/+43Adblock for one.
- walruspanzer, on 06/19/2009, -4/+42I will be happy when Chrome gets more add-on support, IE's reign is crumbling!
- RealmDown, on 06/19/2009, -1/+38This joke just doesn't cut the mustard.
- Moralogic, on 06/19/2009, -0/+36You should see their Xbox website, it uses tons of IE hacks.
- perogi21, on 06/19/2009, -1/+35"Congratulations, you've made a fool of yourself for everyone to see"
Pot meet kettle. - inactive, on 06/19/2009, -1/+31Er, no, compatibility mode also changes the user agent and presumably uses an older version of their rendering engine to display using IE7's rendered. That's why the silly "Find $10,000 On the Internet" campaign that was frontpaged on Digg all week wasn't working for IE8 users in compatibility mode.
"If I have to download extra software just to view *your* site, you're the problem, not the customer."
What is your response to Mac and Linux users, then? Sometimes catering to the majority IS the wrong course of action. - sexybobo, on 06/19/2009, -1/+28Says the man posting on digg.
- Contradictions, on 06/19/2009, -14/+41"Second, IE8 may be more secure than previous IE browsers its a bit too early to come to any conclusion specially since IE8 market share is ~5%."
So is the author saying that a product can't claim it's secure if it has low market share? - SRSco, on 06/19/2009, -1/+25Okay...if the Binky thing wasn't obnoxious enough (not his comment, necessarily, but the scores of minions who try to ride his meme with all the other stuff - i.e. dugg for consistency of dugg for consistency) in the XKCD submissions. Let's not drag it into the tech submissions.
- gernblansted, on 06/19/2009, -1/+22I got a real kick out of "Myth #4: Internet Explorer doesn’t play well with Web standards" where MS writes "Microsoft made a big commitment to standards with Internet Explorer 8.....blah blah... It means that developers will be able to spend more time designing cool new features for their site, and LESS TIME TWEAKING CODE FOR SPECIFIC BROWSERS."
Of course, what they fail to focus on is that those developers spend so much time tweaking code for MICROSOFT browsers, because the others are ALREADY standards compliant! Every problem I ever have seems to be a problem with some version of Internet Explorer. IE 8 is much better, but since so many still use IE 7 (and IE 6) incredible amounts of developer time are sapped by those time sinks, and Microsoft is responsible for that huge waste of resources. So now, we should just trust them? Grrr. - MrAwesomeMan, on 06/19/2009, -3/+23Microsoft's marketing team needs to be fired. Don't they realize how easy it is to see through this little campaign?
Instead of making an inferior browser and trying to convince us that it's the best, why don't they make a great browser and let us realize that it's the best? - Pvisi111, on 06/19/2009, -8/+27"Busting makes me feel good"
- theaceoffire, on 06/19/2009, -4/+22@jonsterling
Addons allow each person to only add things they like, so that the same basic platform can accommodate different needs.
So for example, Greasemonkey allows me to add my own touches and changes to web pages very easily, Tree-Tabs let me group tabs into easy to navigate categories, Fire-gestures allows me to control the browser with mouse only, Tiny menu lets me compress everything down to save screen space, adblock can let me block individual scripts on pages I don't like (Not just ads, but style sheets and so forth).
My setup is built for my browsing habits, and is very different than my friends or families setup... and yet we all share a stable, secure base on which building such a setup is fun and easy. - kwasmosis, on 06/19/2009, -1/+18Awesome! I am going to use a similar letter for people that contact me about this.
I have to use too many style sheets for compatibility issues, strictly for IE and sometimes each version.
Great way to prove how much they suck:
IEtester, http://www.my-debugbar.com/wiki/IETester/HomePage
This software will help you compare how viewing your website on each version of IE is different, great for editing websites, I hate IE. - Hortnon, on 06/19/2009, -4/+21I like how you're getting buried for pointing out a valid criticism.
- techdever, on 06/19/2009, -2/+19Like they care about you or me...
- prisoner24601, on 06/19/2009, -1/+18Microsoft has already made me hate IE8 with their choice to nag me (apparently permanently) to "Download Windows Search to improve history and favorites results" in the address bar.
- HonoredMule, on 06/19/2009, -1/+17"What are some things that addons do that normal applications that work and feel better cannot do?"
Exist. - pakke, on 06/19/2009, -5/+21I'm pretty sure IE would still be playing catch up even if they did switch the rendering engine.
- mason092, on 06/19/2009, -9/+24Um, you shouldn't listen to what Steve Jobs tells you about Vista dude.
- eanbowman, on 06/19/2009, -1/+16Then go elsewhere. Find somewhere else to read the mail tutorial which caters specifically to your special little child who refuses to play well with others.
IE is balls, even IE8.
I code <!--[if ie 6]><link rel="stylesheet" href="css/ie6-hacks.css" type="text/css" /><![endif]--> into all of my sites but I don't like it. It costs my client money for me to sit there and adjust the style of content just for a browser which refuses to do things properly.
I use only CSS 1 rules in my sites because I'm afraid anything newer will break.
It infuriates me that people sit there and defend IE for doing the very thing that makes everyone's life harder.
How retarded can you get? - pixelguru, on 06/19/2009, -1/+15Marketing = Lying with style and graphics
- ridd1e, on 06/19/2009, -2/+15I’m no IE fan, but IE8 has a new engine. It’s not their old Trident used in IE6 and patched up in 7.
- jonglebeats, on 06/19/2009, -0/+13Under favourites duhhh.. wait why is it under favourites?
- 11oops, on 06/19/2009, -2/+15Ctl+H, like every other browser. And remember, there's always F1 for help rather than just bitching.
- magamiako, on 06/19/2009, -2/+15They just need to fire the marketing teams, fire whomever isn't giving enough $ to the IE development team to actually throw something decent together, and get going.
Microsoft has a lot of talent. It's simply a matter of money and marketing. And it's clear their marketing teams know jack *****, and have just done worse to Microsoft's image than not having said anything at all. - iamsmarticus, on 06/19/2009, -2/+14That's great, because that means you have enjoyed life since August 16, 1995, and will likely continue to do so until Microsoft just gives up and recommends that people use Firefox!
(Note to the 3 IE fans on Digg, I am sorry if I have offended you. What I expressed was meant as a joke and not to claim any expertise on anything). - eanbowman, on 06/19/2009, -1/+13How about the fact that it runs a ton faster, has a sensible UI for the most part and generally feels complete whereas Vista felt rushed.
Many people would argue that Windows XP was a better choice than Vista. Even if you had screaming fast hardware, there were all kinds of ways Vista found to slow things to a halt for some reason. Superfetch, the search indexing, something was always thrashing the hard drive. Even if you had tons of RAM!
I've had the Windows 7 Beta 2 and RC1 installed since they were available. I can't stand to install Vista on my machines anymore. It's Win 7 or Ubuntu for me. :| - aizvek, on 06/19/2009, -0/+11To be fair, the author doesn't provide any supporting evidence for Myth 1. I am not saying he is wrong, but he could at least provide some examples.
- Zippo, on 06/19/2009, -1/+12Microsoft's probably basing a lot of their claim on W3C standard compatibility on the fact that IE8 (finally) passes the Acid 2 test... A year after Firefox 3.0 did it (over two years if we're talking about developer builds), three years after Opera did it, and FOUR years since a Safari 2.0.2 did it.
Of course, now we have the Acid 3 test and even my mobile browser is scoring in the 90s, while IE8 is a pitiful 20%.
Like with Windows, a lot of development is stunted with legacy support and Microsoft's insane desire to have proprietary EVERYTHING. If MS had their way, every web server would be running on Windows Server, using IIS, deploying ASP.NET, and using IE-only code. Ultimate control over your computer and the web. ***** that. The web NEEDS open and free standards.
The IE team's #1 focus should be an entirely new rendering engine. One that passes the Acid3 test (and whatever test comes after that) and isn't ***** slow. It should also be open source, like Gecko and Webkit, so people can pick it apart and actually make it secure. - airstrike, on 06/19/2009, -2/+12@dig1x
two words: acid test - TechnoRabbit, on 06/19/2009, -5/+15greasemonkey which lets you alter sites on the fly, or altering how your browser works (like tabkit letting you put tabs on the left in tree form in firefox), adblock, plus like a billion others. Or at least half a dozen.
- mickstephenson, on 06/19/2009, -2/+12That joke was used to inflict pain on me by my elder sister when was nine and recovering from an appendix operation.
From that day on I learned to develop a more discerning sense of humour. - subiedew, on 06/19/2009, -1/+11No-- it means statistically it is not valid to compare the two yet, because of the sample size.
- chewbacca77, on 06/19/2009, -0/+10Hah! IE fans on Digg. That's funny.
- fandyllic, on 06/19/2009, -2/+11And an even better rebuttal:
http://www.geektechnica.com/2009/06/busting-ie8s-m ...
Pavs
06/18/2009
Vikram,
Paying couple of hundred dollars for Automotive Inspection from millions of users is not the same as paying (hundreds) of thousands of dollars from one company.
Automotive inspection can afford to fail individual inspection tests because there are millions of people who needs inspection. They will have to get a paid inspection whether they pass or fail, whether they like it or not. there is no ’second’ option.
How many thousands of companies approach NSS labs to test their browsers? One?
If NSS labs test results shows that IE8 miserably failed security tests, will Microsoft ever come back to NSS labs for tests. Are you that naive?
MS has a product that needs a favorable review from a somewhat reputable security company. MS pays NSS labs to conduct a test. NSS labs gives IE8 “outstanding grades”. How convenient!
Anywhere in your white paper does it mention that the test was sponsored by Microsoft, in BOLD letters? - fadetoone, on 06/19/2009, -1/+10Aside from by the back buttons where it doesn't show up if there's nothing to go back to, I finally found the bastard in the star to the left of the tabs.
- KMartSheriff, on 06/19/2009, -0/+9It may not be perfect, and I'll personally never use it, but I'm happy that IE 8 exists, because at least this will mean there will be less people using IE 6 or 7.
- jemka, on 06/19/2009, -2/+11I take pride in having never laughed at that joke.
- nyxerebos, on 06/19/2009, -1/+9Of course, it's cheaper and easier to lie and say you have a superior browser than to develop one. It's a matter of balancing development costs vs promotional costs to maximize shareholder value in the short term.
- FyberOptic, on 06/19/2009, -5/+13Why are people making such a big deal about this? Microsoft is of course going to make it sound like their product is best. All companies do it.
Mozilla has been using the slogan "faster, safer, better" for a long time. The first two have never been true, and the last one is total opinion. Opera was always faster than Firefox in the past, and now it's Chrome and Safari in the lead. Opera was always safer than Firefox, and now pretty much all browsers are safer than it (yes it's true, check the vulnerability reports at somewhere like Secunia). And there's little point in addressing their "better" claim, because as already stated, that's pure opinion.
Apple also regularly said that Safari was the fastest browser, but for a long time, it just wasn't. It wasn't until very recently that it started to actually perform as well as they claimed. They've also tried to claim they're the most secure, but Apple has in fact done very poorly in terms of security. It's only now that some people are starting to accept that Apple's security practices are trailing behind those of even Microsoft. Snow Leopard for example is introducing security features that Windows has had since XP. Unfortunately, the myth of Macs being virus/vulnerability-free results in many people keeping their head in the sand and refusing to accept such a fact, though.
So the problem is that people are hypocrites. It's okay for Mozilla and Apple to make up things for marketing, but it's not okay for Microsoft. I guess hating on Microsoft is just the "cool" thing to do. -
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