What is Digg?341 Comments
- spritom, on 10/08/2009, -10/+100* Mrs. Hain (the deceased lady in the story) previously made the news by lawfully having a sidearm at a soccer game
* Sheriff pulls her permit - she sues - she wins (then sued again for monayy, but that case was still pending)
* Mr. Hain (her husband) was a parole officer for the county and a former prison guard.
* It appears that Mr. Hain shot Mrs. Hain, then shot himself.
In this case, the apparent murderer was a sworn officer of the government whom is generally attributed to be trustworthy with guns. - chuckDontSurf, on 10/08/2009, -4/+79"Meleanie Hain, 31, and Scott Hain, 33, had been having marital problems for about a week"
Well, if you can't sort things out after a week, what recourse do you have other than shooting your spouse? They obviously tried everything else to work it out. - Netmindstorm, on 10/08/2009, -25/+91GOOOOAAAALLLLL
- badenglishihave, on 10/08/2009, -14/+58RTFA: the HUSBAND killed his wife and then himself. The woman who had the license to carry did not commit this crime.
("Daddy shot mommy!" is what the children said after the incident) - ahhell, on 10/08/2009, -26/+70Sure glad that gun kept her safe....oh wait.
- publiclurker, on 10/08/2009, -16/+48#include <Comment about cold dead fingers>
- lundeja, on 10/08/2009, -9/+39That's what happens when you mix crazy with crazy
- jerrolds, on 10/08/2009, -12/+42As a Canadian i dont get the apparent fascination with guns that Americans have....sure there are tons of criminals here with illegal guns , and quite a few fire arm related deaths (1/3 of murders are gun related apparently)
but it never gotten to the point where im paranoid enough that i need to have a gun with me at all times to feel safe, at home or out in public....and i feel confident that 99.9% of Canadians feel the same way. - badenglishihave, on 10/08/2009, -24/+52Yes, it's just you. Read the article below. There were 300,000 conceal and carry licenses issued in Florida over ~40 years and only 5 of those licenses resulted in gun crimes. There were 0 fatalities.
http://www.largo.org/Lott.html - spritom, on 10/08/2009, -9/+35Your reply doesn't seem to match the details of this case. The "gun-toting soccer mom" was apparently not the murderer in this case. It was the sworn officer of the county that apparently did the shooting before killing himself.
Murders by "lawful citizens" would be a contradictory statistic and come out to be zero each time. However, people that are lawfully carrying sidearms concealed have an extremely low crime rate...of any crime, not just crimes involving shootings or firearms. The average varies a little by state, but is around 0.015%, which is lower than most any demographic.
The "old statistic" you're referring to is the 1993 article in the New England Journal of Medicine by Arthur Kellerman. His study has made news clips quite often, and is still cited in the news these days. However, in the academic community, Kellerman's study was peer reviewed and found to be flawed in several ways and has been thoroughly debunked.
In contrast, studies by Gary Kleck (Florida State) and John Lott (University of Maryland) have had individual studies that have both been peer reviewed and confirmed showing that firearms save many times more lives by lawful citizens. - kelly, on 10/08/2009, -26/+48Ya, because someone who is inclined to kill someone would never do it if a gun wasn't accessible.
- EddiePotato, on 10/08/2009, -2/+22Are you saying only level headed misogynists like you should have access to guns?
- Cyberdine, on 10/08/2009, -9/+29Shop Owner: Sorry buddy, its a five day waiting period.
Homer: Five days? But I'm mad now! I'd kill you if I had my gun. - jakobrowning, on 10/08/2009, -6/+25Oh wait, the husband was a sworn officer... hmmm... Should we ask our police to turn in their guns then?
- SpykerSpeed, on 10/08/2009, -5/+23Thanks for pointing this out. Most here will probably just read the headline and have their biases confirmed.
- XTomTomX, on 10/08/2009, -3/+20You see!?! YOU SEE!!!??!!
THIS is EXACTLY why Children Soccer Games should be OUTLAWED!!! - spritom, on 10/08/2009, -1/+16Your comments don't match the situation.
Mrs. Haim was apparently the one murdered by her husband (who is a sworn officer of the county and former prison guard). - richmomz, on 10/08/2009, -4/+19Because the husband also happened to work in law enforcement (you know, the only category of people that gun-control advocates say should be allowed to carry weapons...)
- torrange, on 10/08/2009, -13/+28I agree with the ***** callout.
"Concealed handgun permit holders killed at least seven police officers and 44 private citizens in 31 incidents during the period May 2007 through April 2009 according to a new study" ...........
The study offers detailed descriptions of the 31 incidents, which occurred in 15 states. Law enforcement officers were killed in: Florida, Idaho, Ohio (two incidents), and Pennsylvania (two incidents). Private citizens were killed in: Alabama, Colorado, Florida (nine incidents), Idaho, Kentucky, Minnesota, New York, North Carolina (two incidents), Ohio (three incidents), Oklahoma, South Carolina, Tennessee, Utah (two incidents), and Virginia. "
www.vpc.org/studies/ccw2009.pdf
I have nothing against gun ownership, I may buy one myself. But do not try and tell us that only criminal commit crimes with guns. Guns are dangerous and a "permit" does not make the owner any less human. - toxicshok, on 10/08/2009, -7/+21@txballer care to refute his claim in anyway?
- rizzo2008, on 10/08/2009, -10/+24of course we should punish all gun owners because of the actions of a few crazy individuals
/s - maximilen, on 10/08/2009, -14/+28Those examples you cited are called accidents. You posted an incredibly foolish and irrelevant argument for gun control; there are much better points to be made than accidents. How many tens of thousands die yearly in auto accidents? Sure they "shouldn't have happened" but they do. If you want to reduce whatever tiny chance you personally may get shot, then don't own a gun. But stop making silly arguments.
- 11oops, on 10/08/2009, -5/+18txballer.... [citation needed]
- kasjogren, on 10/08/2009, -1/+14You know, as much as I laughed at the irony of this story at first, in the end there are 3 kids without parents now...
- Infowarsdotcom, on 10/08/2009, -8/+21The 2nd amendment loses respect every time some dick head shoots someone.
People are expected to be able to defend themselves against criminal elements of the government, hence the 2nd amendment. It's not about bringing a weapon to a childrens' soccer event.
The 2nd amendment is there to allow the populace to mount a defense against a tyrannical government. Interpret that however you wish, but I see a clear difference between rattling before you're stepped on, and trying to prove to the world you have venom. - Assassinanus, on 10/08/2009, -7/+20Guess she should have spent more time on her quickdraw.
- rascilon, on 10/08/2009, -2/+14It could be because there really are two different Americas, with completely different outlooks on life and ideas about where this country was from and where it should go. Your last statement pretty much sums it up. In America, I can be sure that 50% of the population not only disagrees with me, but would be happy to kick my teeth in for it.
- spritom, on 10/08/2009, -2/+13I think the dark joke that seems to fit the circumstances would be:
She would have been safer had she been at the soccer game. - BugBBQ, on 10/08/2009, -9/+20Guns don't kill people. People don't kill people. People w/ Guns kill people. Substract the guns from the people... well pretty simple math.
As a fellow Canadian (and former Canadian Army Reserve, so I'm not an "anti-gun nut"), I always feel odd about the American obsession with guns (especially in the southern & mid-west states). I spent several weeks last summer in Montana, South Dakota & Kansas for work and frankly, people's attitudes really freaked me out.
Best country in the world... just lock your doors, load your gun and don't get sick. Frack, I'd swear some of the people I met watch movies like "Dawn of the Dead" or "Zombieland" and think it's a documentary.
It seems David Bowie is not the only one afraid of Americans... Americans are afraid of Americans. - paulvq, on 10/08/2009, -1/+10Yes because gun control would have kept her cop husband from shooting her.
- fallingdamage, on 10/08/2009, -1/+10I think its a broader paranoia than weather or not you can own a gun. To americans I think its about NOT being able to have a choice.
Bottom line. Americans dont like being told they CANT do or have something.
Its about freedom, which is an ironic word in America. - gitargr8, on 10/08/2009, -3/+12You must be new here.
- richmomz, on 10/08/2009, -4/+13@torrange - your own cite notes that there were only 31 firearm incidents (not just murders but suicides as well) comitted by permit holders across 15 states in a two year period. That averages to about one permit holder incident per state, per year... out of how many hundreds (or thousands) of incidents by non permit holders per year?
I think you've just proven that the vast majority of gun crimes are in fact *not* comitted by permit holders. - toxicshok, on 10/08/2009, -1/+10Shop Owner: Well you don't do ya?
- isgk, on 10/09/2009, -1/+10@torrange
So lets look at some facts...
I'm am going to pad it massively in your favor here. Florida has currently 627,864 active CCW permits (they've issued over 1.5 million total over the years). Let's assume Florida is the only state in the whole US that allows CCW (so the 38 other states I'm just going to throw out, INCLUDING Texas... am i generous or what massive padding in your favor).
You say there were 31 incidents over a two year period with 51 deaths. Florida stats are at the current instance so I'm going to further give you the benefit and say you know what they happened pretty much at the same time instead of two years.
31 incidents / 627,864 CCW permits = .0000493.. or 4.9 thousandths of a percent
51 deaths / 627,864 CCW permits = .0000812.. or 8.1 thousandths of a percent
The average percentage of death by firearms in the US is 10.851 / 100,000
Let's use ratio's now, and see if the CCW ratio is higher or lower than general firearm deaths applying the percentages to the entire US population
304 mill people * (10.851 / 100,000) = 32,987 deaths by firearms in general per year
304 mill people * (51 / 627,864) = 24,693 deaths by CCW cariers (technically that ratio is double what it should be but remember I'm giving you an intentional edge)
So giving your stats a massive advantage the number of CCW deaths is 25% lower than the non. If I simply calculate the deaths more properly, and span them over the two years, the number of deaths for CCW drops to 12,346 or 62.6% lower probability. This number even dives massivley lower if I were to include the other 38 states with CCW permits (Texas, Ohio, Michigan, etc)
So it would appear that people with CCW actually cause *fewer* deaths than average joes carrying weapons (by a very large percentage). Do the math yourself, links are below... prove it wrong.
http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/stats/cw_monthly. ...
http://www.datamasher.org/sites/default/files/data ... - richmomz, on 10/08/2009, -9/+17"Is it me, or do alot of gun related crimes committed these days, seem to be committed by lawful gun owners, using their guns in a very unlawful way."
I think it *is* just you because carry-permit gun owners are responsible for a very small percentage of gun crimes. This case is no exception, as the "gun-toting" woman was the VICTIM, not the perp. In fact, the "perp" in this case was a parole officer, the kind of person that gun-control advocates say should be the only ones allowed to carry... - SpruceCaboose, on 10/08/2009, -2/+10Hey, way to come off looking like a sexist pig when you didn't need to with your flippant comment about women being emotionally unstable. The MALE, by all accounts, was the one who killed the FEMALE and then himself.
As for giving the gun to people with problems: The article claims problems in the last week. She has had her gun since last year at least, and the husband was a corrections officer/PO, so I assume he had is gun longer than a week as well. - spritom, on 10/08/2009, -0/+8@mnemy
Many mentally sound civilians can and do lawfully carry guns everywhere they go. To the point of this little side-discussion (as the main article happened in the home not at the soccer field, etc.), the "everywhere" does include soccer games and schools where laws permit.
Your exception of law enforcement is interesting since law enforcement is rarely at a crime situation to protect and in the instances where an officer lawfully pulls the trigger, the doctrine of the laws pertaining to that situation fall under the same ideals as a civilian lawfully doing so...with one exception that is becoming increasingly rare.
Lawful concealed carry holders have a lower crime rate of law enforcement officers. - toxicshok, on 10/08/2009, -2/+10Wheres the karma?
- spritom, on 10/08/2009, -0/+8RTFA, apparently she didn't do the shooting.
- spritom, on 10/08/2009, -3/+10And? What's you're point? Who's saying that they are equal?
The post above reads "parole officer." Many jurisdictions train their parole officers at local police academies and entrust them to carry government issued firearms. - Crimeodial, on 10/08/2009, -1/+8**5 Days of mumbling**
He thinks he's such a bigshot because he has all the guns, well if I had all the guns, then I'd be the bigshot... - AngryAngryBrian, on 10/09/2009, -0/+7A woman gets shot by her husband in front of her kids and you consider this a win? So she had a lifestyle choice you didn't approve of and that makes it a win when some one kills her? What if instead of being shot she was stabbed, is that still a win? What if she chose to stand up for woman's right instead of gun rights and she was strangled with a pair of pantyhose, is that a win? When is killing an innocent person a win, clarify this for me *****?
- Dimensio, on 10/09/2009, -0/+7I am curious, askantik; do you feel any shame in your attempt to blame the victim of a murder for her death?
- Brotoi, on 10/08/2009, -1/+8@visionviper "Parole officer != Law enforcement officer."
Actually, in many communities it does. - active1x0, on 10/09/2009, -2/+9OH *****, FACTS
- spritom, on 10/08/2009, -3/+10maybe if the argument had taken place at a soccer game she would have been better prepared.
- lydecker, on 10/08/2009, -3/+10Or maybe they should have tried to solve their marital problems without the use of guns, and with a counselor.
- KahRahTay, on 10/08/2009, -5/+12[citation needed]
- spritom, on 10/08/2009, -4/+10I think badenglishihave's comments would have made more sense if it was in reply to one of the many people posting on the premise that the "gun-toting soccer mom" was the shooter.
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