What is Digg?75 Comments
- DannyPage, on 10/12/2007, -7/+30Its like Watergate everyday with this administration.
- volcompimp, on 10/12/2007, -4/+23We're talking about forwarding data/voice not just records. Don't you think it's more than a coincidense that he's under investigation for all of this after telling the NSA to eat a dick?
- Urusai, on 10/12/2007, -4/+18Unlike the public pardoning of Nixon, I assume that Bush will secretly pardon everyone in his administration, including himself, before he leaves office. Mark my words, when you don't hear about those pardons on Fox News, you'll know what's going on...
- PathDaemon, on 10/12/2007, -2/+13This is my most/least favorite line:
"According to USA Today, the NSA told Qwest that not sharing the phone records could...affect its chances at landing classified contracts with the government..." - bwd01, on 10/12/2007, -4/+14Or just use PGP. http://www.pgp.com/downloads/desktoptrial.php
- strictnein, on 10/12/2007, -10/+18Before we cast Nacchio as some sort of saint.... he's currently under investigation for over $200 million in insider trading.
It's also quite funny, in my opinion, that the records that they refused to give to the government are regularly sold to marketers. - PathDaemon, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10No, it's more like a bribe. The government suggests that it was planning to give Qwest contracts, but may not if Qwest doesn't comply with certain demands. If the requests were completely legal, the NSA could easily force compliance instead threatening.
- TheQT, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8@SyDigg
No, they should treat all the companies equal because the government shouldn't be able to blackmail companies for information that shouldn't be getting. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9[skrowl 21]
"Carnivore FBI" or "Echelon NSA""
Both of which were programs that his father, george senior, started while he was still head of the CIA.
http://www.counterpunch.org/nimmo01022003.html - fluoro, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6But Qwest said "no". What is the NSA's response? It wasn't "pretty please", and it wasn't a trip to the proper court to get it done legally. It was, "if you don't give this to us then you may not get future government contracts."
- stark23x, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8U.S. Code Title 18, Chapter 121, Section 2709
§ 2709. Counterintelligence access to telephone toll and transactional records
(a) Duty to provide.--A wire or electronic communication service provider shall comply with a request for subscriber information and toll billing records information, or electronic communication transactional records in its custody or possession made by the Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation under subsection (b) of this section.
(b) Required certification.--The Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, or his designee in a position not lower than Deputy Assistant Director at Bureau headquarters or a Special Agent in Charge in a Bureau field office designated by the Director, may--
(1) request the name, address, length of service, and local and long distance toll billing records of a person or entity if the Director (or his designee) certifies in writing to the wire or electronic communication service provider to which the request is made that the name, address, length of service, and toll billing records sought are relevant to an authorized investigation to protect against international terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities, provided that such an investigation of a United States person is not conducted solely on the basis of activities protected by the first amendment to the Constitution of the United States; and
(2) request the name, address, and length of service of a person or entity if the Director (or his designee) certifies in writing to the wire or electronic communication service provider to which the request is made that the information sought is relevant to an authorized investigation to protect against international terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities, provided that such an investigation of a United States person is not conducted solely upon the basis of activities protected by the first amendment to the Constitution of the United States.
(c) Prohibition of certain disclosure.--No wire or electronic communication service provider, or officer, employee, or agent thereof, shall disclose to any person that the Federal Bureau of Investigation has sought or obtained access to information or records under this section.
(d) Dissemination by bureau.--The Federal Bureau of Investigation may disseminate information and records obtained under this section only as provided in guidelines approved by the Attorney General for foreign intelligence collection and foreign counterintelligence investigations conducted by the Federal Bureau of Investigation, and, with respect to dissemination to an agency of the United States, only if such information is clearly relevant to the authorized responsibilities of such agency.
(e) Requirement that certain congressional bodies be informed.--On a semiannual basis the Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation shall fully inform the Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence of the House of Representatives and the Select Committee on Intelligence of the Senate, and the Committee on the Judiciary of the House of Representatives and the Committee on the Judiciary of the Senate, concerning all requests made under subsection (b) of this section.
What does all that mean?
IT'S NOT ILLEGAL. Furthermore, Quest may be breaking the law. Stop playing armchair lawyer without reading the actual laws involved, people. - fluoro, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6The fact that the NSA was resorting to this sort of bribery rather than going through the proper legal channels and courts is very revealing. It seems that we are not the only ones who think what they were doing was perhaps not entirely legal. :)
- adodikan, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5In this case your analogy doesn't apply. Due to privacy laws, the judge they were supposed to ask was FISA. The government is trying to play this off by saying they didnt record conversations, just 'data.' Problem is, that data is still protected by privacy laws and therefore have been violated. Once this all gets into court it will be obvious. I see two courses of action:
1. "National security/state secrets" - which is means that either our personal calls are now considered state secrets or there are tens of millions of terroists in this country that have to be tracked.
2. Arguing sementics - whereby they would have to convince us that data is not protected by privacy laws. And if that is successful, all bets are off = Back doors in everything and wiretaps all around.
The telcos may be the owners of the records but legally they could not give out the information without the customers consent or FISA permission. Which is exactly the conclusion the Qwest legal team came to. A company actually using lawyers to _not_ ***** over their customers. Imagine that. If only our government would do the same. - kindrobot, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Read it again. It's about individuals, not a copy of the CO's hard drives. And it all requires review and a valid investigation. We all know already that this (in relation to qwest) is about requesting everything.
With emphasis....
from section 1:
"IF the Director (or his designee) certifies in writing to the wire or electronic communication service provider to which the request is made that the information sought is RELEVANT to an AUTHORIZED INVESTIGATION to protect against international terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities, provided that such an investigation of a United States person IS NOT conducted solely upon the basis of activities PROTECTED by the first amendment to the Constitution of the United States"
from section 2:
"IF the Director (or his designee) certifies in writing to the wire or electronic communication service provider to which the request is made that the information sought is RELEVANT to an AUTHORIZED INVESTIGATION"
And lastly, we have a requirement that IF applied would demand millions of man hours:
"(e) Requirement that certain congressional bodies be informed.--On a semiannual basis the Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation shall fully inform the Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence of the House of Representatives and the Select Committee on Intelligence of the Senate, and the Committee on the Judiciary of the House of Representatives and the Committee on the Judiciary of the Senate, concerning ALL REQUESTS made under subsection (b) of this section."
Subsection B including 1 and 2, of course. That's a lot of individual investigations
according to my math if this includes all customers.
Pay attention to the actual WORDS. What they were requesting of qwest had nothing to do with U.S. Code Title 18, Chapter 121, Section 2709. If it did, they would have forced qwest to comply rather than act like mobsters. - CharlesDingus, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6I am a huge advocate of enigmail thunderbird/gnupg but getting my friends and associates to use it is a huge deal. Even those people who are technically savvy to go through all the steps involved in installing it, setting up keys, and using it correctly balk at the idea, and those that do have it still send me all their email over plaintext unless we need to talk about something "sensitive"
Unless you use it to encrypt everything, what's the point? I ask people if they would feel comfortable sending all their mail on postcards, but it's not a big deal for them. It's not about getting away with something, it's about the principles of privacy. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -4/+8[strictnein 32]
Of course he's being "investigated". It's real easy for the government to frame folks these days.
I know how easy it is to be framed by local cops/thugs, so I imagine it is way easier to do by the commies running the U.S.A., as they have way more money than Bill Gates.
I bet you are a government attorney,a plant, or a stooge.
- toddbu, on 10/12/2007, -4/+8For those of you Qwest customers that are happy that they told the government to screw off, I suggest that you call Qwest's compliment line at 866-285-0983 and thank them. They need to know that their customers support them. I called customer service yesterday and they gave me that number.
- Mekun, on 10/12/2007, -6/+10Nacchio is a crook, so lets not put a halo on him yet. My wife works for qwest and lots of people lost their retirement because of him. He sold all his stocks when he was not supposed to, and crippled qwest under him.I hope Nacchio gets life in prison. On another note nice to see qwest standing up to the nsa.
- Mekun, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Ya i can call him a crook. Did you lose out on over 300,000.00 in retirement. Nacchio is a crook he walked away with over 200 mil. and people lost all they worked for. Don't give me your politically correct crap or arm chair lawyer rhetoric.
- 5blocksfree, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6@skrowl -> What's funny is that legally, you have NO privacy rights to the PHONE COMPANY'S records of your usage of their server. You don't own the records, the phone company does.
They might own the records, but I think it is very reasonable to expect that your business with the company is between you and it, not between you, it, and the rest of the world. One buys the service because of what it enables them to do, not so that they can have the details of its use examined, profiled, sold, or disseminated by any other means. - Urusai, on 10/12/2007, -7/+10Could be that Clinton did it legally, instead of circumventing the bogus court made up to rubber-stamp these kind of illegal activities.
- briansmith, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Nitro, if the companies that participated are not punished for their involvement, they will only be more likely to participate in the future. If they are punished now, the fear of punishment may help pursuade them to avoid participation in similar programs in the future.
It is true that, if the lawsuits are successful, the people who win will likely make a lot of money that doesn't really belong to them. But, the main point is to punish those companies that participated. I don't even see it as being totally unfair that lawyers would get most of the money, because without those lawyers, there would be no way to win the case, and they are taking personal risks in moving these lawsuits forward. - strictnein, on 10/12/2007, -4/+7"We're talking about forwarding data/voice not just records"
Erhhh... no, we're not. - stark23x, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4And here come the Digg Lefty Squad, burying anything that challenges their sense of outrage. God forbid we use the actual law in a discussion about hwat is or isn't illegal.
- briansmith, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3But, if people want to collect damages against their phone companies, then they will likely have to fight the government first. Either the State Secrets privilege needs to be declared unconstitutional, or the courts need to assert that the State Secrets privilege does not apply to these cases. Otherwise, the government is likely to kill all their lawsuits before they even get started.
- SyDIGG, on 10/12/2007, -4/+6The FISA court was created in 1978 when Carter was in office. FYI, history does not start when Bush took office ...better brush up on it before you post some lame response.
- locojones, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Favorite quote:
-- "Everything that the agency has done has been lawful." --
Oh, except that it violates, at the minimum, the 4th Amendment, the FISA Law, and the Electronic Stored Communications Act.
-- "It's been briefed to the appropriate members of Congress," Hayden told reporters outside a Senate office. --
As if relaying your illegal activities to the Legislative branch somehow immunizes you from liability from the JUDICIAL branch, yeah, you know, the one charged in the Constitution with determining the legality of laws and actions in this country.
-- "The only purpose of the agency's activities is to preserve the security and the liberty of the American people." --
Yes, by monitoring phone logs instead of, oh say, protecting the ports, or the Canadian border, or even understanding the fundamental reasons why the puny number of radicals in this world hate America and doing something to change that view. - deepsub, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Naccio is a hero for standing up to 'Break the law, in secret, or else.'.
And if you think any other telecom company is any better than Qwest in the ripping off stakeholders dept., you need to rub your eyes and refocus. - LCmidas, on 10/12/2007, -3/+4Link to Enigmail, the Thunderbird extension for OpenPGP encryption:
https://addons.mozilla.org/thunderbird/71/ - briansmith, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Firstly, AFAICT Nacchio has not been convicted, so it is wrong to call him a crook already. Even if he is guilty of that crime, I think it is really dangerous to label people a "crook" or a "saint" based on single actions.
Secondly, it is interesting that, even if Nacchio was responsible for Qwest losing lots of money, he might end up in the end turning a net profit for them, if the NSA wiretapping lawsuits against the other baby bells are successful.
Thirdly, this article has a very interesting implication: None of the companies involved in the NSA wiretapping were legally required to participate in the wiretapping program. Qwest refused, and they were not punished. Because of this, those who complied cannot use "we were forced to comply under threat of legal duress" as a defense. That is going to be very important if and when the privacy lawsuits against the phone companies hit. - burke, on 10/12/2007, -4/+5looks like that *could* be spam, but I'm gonna let it pass. Good comment. I concur with bwdo1 though, everyone should check out Thunderbird+Enigmail (uses GPG -- Gnu PGP equivalent.)
- annonimality, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@ SyDIGG
I think it makes sense that the federal government should abide by constitutional law, and not use intimidation and extortion to coerce private companies into breaking those laws. - knightblade2oo4, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2erm... no it isn't.
Actually this is nothing like watergate. at all. I see where you're coming from though. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Sounds like Qwest is on its last leg in my book. I think the more interesting tidbit is the CEO robbing his stakeholders. Ya....switch to Qwest, get robbed. niiice.
- siouxmoux, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2It time for the other Telco to follow Quest Communication.
- filovirus, on 10/12/2007, -4/+5I agree, the NSA's demands for records is the main issue, and good for Qwest for standing tall. On the otherhand, Nacchio cooked the books to buy US West and sold his stock before the little guy. For that, he deserves a prison cell.
- MacGeekGuy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Whatever, man. We're the UNITED states. We're in this together or not at all. We can't fight this battle one by one... that helps... but we also have to stick together. This is not the liberty and security we were promised - this is how every tyrannical government gets started. We need to nip it in the bud NOW or pay the consequences later. Have peopled learned nothing from history?
- kaemaril, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Uh ... I see a lot of references to the FBI. Not so many for the NSA.
Also, this act is in reference to A specific person, not EVERY person. For evidence of this?
> (1) request the name, address, length of service, and local and long distance toll billing records of a person or entity
> (2) request the name, address, and length of service of a person or entity
> provided that such an investigation of a United States person is not conducted solely upon the basis of activities protected by the first amendment to the Constitution of the United States
So, unless the NSA talked the FBI into asking for millions of requests ... - helix400, on 10/12/2007, -4/+5"Oh? Can you be specific which scandal convicted an adminstration official thus far?"
The same thing went though my head when I read these comments.
However, this is Digg, and annoying political flamewars like the one you seem fond of starting don't belong here. So, I modded you down, and any other partisan political comments like yours, whether I agreed with them or not. - SyDIGG, on 10/12/2007, -3/+4Doak ...the internet/wiki/google are good tools. Actually use it before you make a fool of yourself ...like tonight. Carnivore originated during the Clinton Adminstration and Echelon started at the beginning of the Cold War to spy on the Russians.
FYI ...links to conspiratorial leftist sites do not count.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnivore_(FBI)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2My only problem with PGP is that the people I talk to aren't too computer savvy... and don't they need to enter a code or something to read my emails?
- hotdrop, on 10/12/2007, -3/+4So the question is who used the infromation against who? Did the fedral investigation start because he refused the NSA or did he expose this info to get back at the govermet thats pressing chages against him
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2[ Nitro2985]
Sheesh, how many accounts on digg do you have? - SyDIGG, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3Helix ...like you are being so truthful now...give me a break. Make no mistake ...this is a political story. Being political and commenting on a politically charged story IS NOT hypocritical. What ...am I suppose to not post on stories I marked as lame? I am a hypocrite IF I post the same story on DIGG that I marked as lame ...understand? Its ironic I commented on a statement that was politically charged and you turned around and harrassed me instead of the person who started it all. Your comments thus rung false to me.
- EtherGnat, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3I liked Clinton and despise Bush, but why must this have anything to do with politics? Governments have been trying to spy on their citizens since the beginning of time. Our founding fathers thought this was a BAD idea, and the Bill of Rights reflects their opinion. I happen to agree with them and think our fourth amendment rights are critical. I was against Carnivore--if you can comprehend somebody who doesn't support their party blindly. I was against Gore when he was pushing for a law that would require all encryption devices to have a built in backdoor. I'm even more against the current administration, because in my opinion we've lost more freedoms in the past five years than anytime in recent history.
Our government now spies on us routinely; feels free to use that information against us (ie Plamegate); denies American citizens their right to a trial; sneaks a national ID card into law (required for travel: "show me your papers"); tries to exempt Homeland Security from any judicial checks and balances; moves protesters to remote "free speech zones"; and generally seems to think it can do whatever it wants. If you disagree you're unamerican and against the war on terror. Forgive me if I don't think we can protect America by abandoning the liberties that make us what we are.
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." ~Benjamin Franklin - Nitro2985, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1One, why?
- Hubbell, on 07/10/2008, -0/+0Interesting that with the ruling to give the telecoms immunity we also find out about some MAJOR vulnerabilities in DNS and debian's OpenSSL. This is not a coincidence.
- spadin, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1It's hard for people to use public/private key encryption because almost everyone else that you email doesn't know what it is. The only thing you do then is confuse them because you are sending them a 'weird' attachment (your key) and then they think you are sending them a virus. (idiots! i tell you) anyway, you also have to make sure you have an SSL connection to your mail server so people can't get your plaintext email while you are on a wireless network.
- Nitro2985, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1To ammend my previous statement somewhat, it does permit phone companies to give out information without a warrant or permission from the customers. In this respect it is relvent to what adodikan mentioned earlier when he said that they must have permission or a warrant to give out this sort of information.
- salsaman, on 10/12/2007, -5/+5The Nixon comparison has to do with the current president's COMPLETE abuse of power. This is not a partisan issue anymore.
End the "War on Freedom"-- impeach Bush.
http://www.*****.com/ -
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