What is Digg?94 Comments
- inactive, on 10/11/2007, -3/+46>>"Which ISPs Are Spying on You?
Having worked for a couple of the bigger ones, as well as for the federal gov't, I suspect the answer is "all of them".
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759 - inactive, on 10/11/2007, -5/+39>>6933591
@iamhrh "Anyone know if end-to-end encryption would be feasible?"
Possible? Sure. Feasible? Not really.
It is possible to encrypt most traffic beyond DNS queries, but not at all feasible unless you want to dramatically change your surfing habits; i.e: only if you don't want to visit sites that don't encrypt your traffic, etc.
Think about it: SSL is a form of "end-to-end" encryption. At the end of the day, all SSL does is prevent an attacker from reading your http packet directly. It doesn't prove the site you are visiting is trustworthy (how often do you read and understand the certificates?), nor does it prevent Big Brother from knowing what sites you visited or what files you requested. It serves a purpose, but it is not really that trustworthy.
Tor Onion Router is one good method of anonymizing web-traffic, but it doesn't encrypt the traffic end-to-end; instead it mostly just obfuscates who is requesting what pages when. In order to really encrypt every bit of traffic, you would first have to have some sort of method worked out to authenticate and trust each site you visit. Or you could go with something like Freenet, but it doesn't generally have much content and is slow as molasses still.
Perhaps the best is to pick your favorite bootable LiveCD GNU/Linux distro (I use Knoppix on a CD/DVD or USB drive set to read-only) and boot to it from a public machine where they don't keep records of who used the machine at a specific times... Libraries often track who is using the machine, as do some web-cafes. Wireless hotspots are pretty decent for this but your MAC address will give you away to a savvy forensic analysis. So you change the MAC on your NIC, perhaps. Then you use TOR to further obfuscate your trail. For surfing use Proxify or something. For IM always use Off-the-Record or Gaim-Encryption for Pidgin. Or get properly paranoid and install WASTE and make your friends all use it for private IM and P2P.
You see that it is entirely possible to HIDE where you surf, what you do or say, etc. This does not necessarily require encryption, per-se, which is more a way of hiding the contents of specific packets or files. After all this, what do I need to say/do that is really important enough to go to these lengths in order to hide it? Probably nothing. Certainly the powers that be are not too keen on the idea of individual freedom from the , but that is perhaps all the more reason for me to exercise my right to privacy. - totorototoro, on 10/11/2007, -0/+26Why should Wired have to do a voluntary survey of this *****? This should be required information provided by the ISPs.
- NoahK, on 10/11/2007, -1/+23Looks like Comcast, EarthLink, Verizon, and Time Warner...
- tom6a, on 10/11/2007, -1/+22This story has been slowly brewing for a couple of months when David Cancel, the CTO of the web market research firm Compete, disclosed that Internet Service Providers sell their customer’s clickstream data for about 40 cents/month per user to various buyers. At the time, people were predicting that at some point this clickstream market would gain media attention and create a "consumer firestorm." I think the concern is going to continue to build.
More background here:
ISPs Sell Browsing History
http://omninerd.com/2007/03/18/news/1181 - iamhrh, on 10/11/2007, -0/+18Anyone know if end-to-end encryption would be feasible?
IE, is it possible for every bit of my internet traffic to be encrypted, with the exception of the addresses of the computers I was trying to talk to? - inactive, on 10/11/2007, -1/+16@fugeelama - YES! Nothing ever became of the following, or the other two notices I've received just like it, but yes! They can and do monitor EVERYTHING.
Notice of Action under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act
Abuse Incident Number: NA0000002902499
Report Date/Time: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 13:40:14 -0700
MY NAME HERE
MY ADDRESS
MY CITY, STATE, ZIP
Dear Comcast High-Speed Internet Subscriber:
Comcast has received a notification by a copyright owner, or its authorized agent, reporting an alleged infringement of one or more copyrighted works made on or over Comcast's High-Speed Internet service (the 'Service'). The copyright owner has identified the Internet Protocol ('IP') address associated with your Service account at the time as the source of the infringing works. The works identified by the copyright owner in its notification are listed below. Comcast reminds you that use of the Service (or any part of the Service) in any manner that constitutes an infringement of any copyrighted work is a violation of Comcast's Acceptable Use Policy and may result in the suspension or termination of your Service account.
If you have any questions regarding this notice, you may direct them to Comcast in writing by sending a letter or e-mail to:
Comcast Legal Response Center
Comcast Cable Communications, LLC
650 Centerton Road
Moorestown, NJ 08057 U.S.A.
Phone: (856) 317-7272
Fax: (856) 317-7319
E-mail: dmca@comcast.net
For more information regarding Comcast's copyright infringement policy, procedures, and contact information, please read our Acceptable Use Policy by clicking on the Terms of Service link at http://www.comcast.net.
Sincerely,
Comcast Legal Response Center
Copyright work(s) identified in the notification of claimed infringement:
Title: The Office: AAW S03E16 - Phyllis' Wedding
Infringement Source: BitTorrent
Initial Infringement Timestamp: 10 Mar 2007 12:22:30 GMT Recent Infringment Timestamp: 11 Mar 2007 21:44:43 GMT Infringer Username:
Infringing Filename: The.Office.US.S03E16.HDTV.XviD-LOL.avi
Infringing Filesize: 182900736
Infringers IP Address: 71.236.xxx.xxx
Infringers DNS Name: c-71-236-xxx-xxx.hsd1.or.comcast.net
Infringing URL: http://tracker.sladinki007.net:6700/announce
Title: The Office: AAW S03E17 - Business School
Infringement Source: BitTorrent
Initial Infringement Timestamp: 10 Mar 2007 12:01:10 GMT Recent Infringment Timestamp: 11 Mar 2007 21:19:23 GMT Infringer Username:
Infringing Filename: The.Office.US.S03E17.Business.School.HDTV.XviD-FQM.avi
Infringing Filesize: 183607296
Infringers IP Address: 71.236.xxx.xxx
Infringers DNS Name: c-71-236-xxx-xxx.hsd1.or.comcast.net
Infringing URL: http://tracker.to:2710/46adb0536ded9d8dedda6cb2ed6f2c9d/announce
Title: The Office: AAW S03E15 - Ben Franklin
Infringement Source: BitTorrent
Initial Infringement Timestamp: 10 Mar 2007 18:40:01 GMT Recent Infringment Timestamp: 10 Mar 2007 18:40:01 GMT Infringer Username:
Infringing Filename: The.Office.US.S03E15.HDTV.XviD-LOL.avi
Infringing Filesize: 183597056
Infringers IP Address: 71.236.xxx-xxx
Infringers DNS Name: c-71-236-xxx-xxx.hsd1.or.comcast.net
Infringing URL: http://eztv.sladinki007.eu:60500/announce - VintageMud, on 10/11/2007, -1/+16@Bowl "What the ***** are you guys downloading/visiting that warrants this type of paranoia?"
It's not that we necessarily have anything to hide (although I'm certain that there are many that do), it's that we enjoy our privacy and having a lack of information about ourselves unavailable to the general public.
It's like the 4th Amendment (in the U.S.). We have the right to refuse search by an agent of the government (police, fbi, dhs, etc) whether we have anything to hide or not (provided they don't have a valid search warrant). It is the principle our forefathers fought and died for. Although that right is quickly fading since the introduction of the Patriot Act, but that's a whole different can of worms...
@bigt8r "Most proxy servers record the same information... so no. It's not any safer. Government can still pull records and track you down."
The idea there is that many of them are different countries, that will minimally slow the process of tracking you, if not bringing it to a screeching halt. - DSGalvin, on 10/11/2007, -1/+14yay, I have cox.
- Scruffydan, on 10/11/2007, -2/+14tor should keep most of what you do private (at least from your ISP), I do believe it does encrypt trafic
Security Now did an episode on it :http://www.grc.com/SecurityNow.htm#70
http://tor.eff.org/ - FatherG, on 10/11/2007, -1/+13Turning on PeerGuardian... Now
- SwissCamel, on 10/11/2007, -2/+14All of them probably, if they think I'm going to be getting my dick out on webcam they can forget it after reading this.
- gus2074, on 10/11/2007, -0/+10Q: Which ISPs can be trusted?
A: None of them - darkhero, on 10/11/2007, -3/+12Yes you can encrypt your connection. Just use something like relakks. It uses 128bit encryption. It is a VPN by piratebay. Best 5 euros i spend very month.
I have a internship at Qwest and those ***** slow down torrent downloads. They some kind of packet checker and sometimes might even cut you off. Then you have to restart your modem. - ametory, on 10/11/2007, -1/+9No sir, I don't like it.
- Nedlog23, on 10/11/2007, -5/+12They are monitoring all of us reading this article at this very moment ! O.o
- Conwaysb0718, on 10/11/2007, -0/+7I read stuff like this and in a way it just makes me sad. Sad that we are losing liberties on a medium that most citizens dont even realize the impact this will have years down the line. Its almost as if having a Law Officer follow you around in your daily activity, noting everything that you do. Between this, the cameras on the roadways and our GPS systems narcing out our driving habits, It feels like that time is quickly coming upon us where we will be monitored 24/7 in the privacy of our own homes and motor vehicles.
- p0tent1al, on 10/11/2007, -0/+7because
1. They don't have to
2. The U.S. Government & courts will back them up.
it's not right, but then again most isp's (comcast, verizon) are scumbags. - fugeelama, on 10/11/2007, -1/+7@bigt8r
That's exactly the answer I was looking for. I know ISPs basically have underground departments where a bunch of servers sniff through packets and flag certain types of traffic for review, but I guess I didn't realize they do it for everything that comes across their tubes.
And clearly you're behind on your porn. "Hot Goo-Guzzling Cheating Housewives 5" is not nearly as good as "Back Door Sluts 9" - Sware, on 10/11/2007, -1/+7Charter Pipeline Communications should be on the list thar does not spy on you. They could care less on what you do on the internet as long as you don't get caught in something illegal.
- FyberOptic, on 10/11/2007, -0/+6I've been fairly satisfied with Charter, especially with the fact that they don't mess with torrents or anything of that sort. My complaint though is the recent addition of the ad-based "suggestion" page you get when it can't find an url. I want my normal error page. In fact, I changed DNS servers just to bypass the junk. But aside from that, I'm pleased with them compared to what I've heard of some of these other companies.
- f4nt0m4s, on 10/11/2007, -1/+7Comcast is craptastic, I'm glad they offer Wide Open West in my area....
but no one rises to the levels of mediocrity that AOL Time Warner has achieved - inactive, on 10/11/2007, -0/+5@fugeelama
Yes, they DO have the ABILITY to see ANY traffic that is not fully encrypted, such as URLs, search terms, etc. All that stuff gets transmitted through your ISP to their destination using what are called "Packets" of data... Each packet has a header identifying what type of data is inside of it, where it's going to, etc, and another section of the packet containing what data is being transmitted, etc... There's more to a packet than just that, but for simplification, that's the important part. ISPs have the world's best packet sniffing software.
So, the next time you search for "Hot Goo-Guzzling Cheating Housewives 5" on Limewire, keep in mind: Someone *could* see that you're a pervert :)
I think of it like this: If I'm searching for something on Bit Torrent or Limewire or whatever, I just keep in mind that there are several million other people on at the same time searching for stuff... I really don't think someone cares THAT much to sit there and watch everything you do, so I surf freely.
NOTHING, unless encrypted, is "private" on the net... Even if it's encrypted, that just means it's a big word jumble until someone cracks the encryption key. - fugeelama, on 10/11/2007, -0/+5I feel like a total n00b asking this, but I've always wondered: do ISPs have records of information you search for via a program like Acquisition, Limewire, etc? I understand how click-stream data works and it makes perfect sense as you're basically asking your provider for how directions on how to get to a specific web site. But I'm curious if P2P request info is as anonymous to your ISP as the actual download?
Basically can Cox/Time Warner/etc. see what you're looking to download? - xsuite, on 10/11/2007, -0/+5Because, my dear boy, democracy isnt free. For a case like this the attorney fees would run in the tens of thousands.
- f4nt0m4s, on 10/11/2007, -0/+5Probably because the companies stipulate exactly what their data gathering policies are in their lengthy contracts that most customers don't read. If you can find a flaw in the paperwork then you might be able to take them to court.
- Cyberdactyl, on 10/11/2007, -2/+6That article was about as enlightening as me flipping a coin as to whether or not my ISP (Time Warner) monitors my traffic.
- SPECOPS, on 10/11/2007, -1/+5@Bowl - the quote isn't referring to rights. It's referring to liberties, e.g. freedoms. And it has EVERYTHING to do with this. I'm sure you'll be a happy little boy when every single item you do (e.g. purchase a pack of gum, visit someone on xyz street at 4:03am, and anything else you can think of that can be categorized and archived. The freedom you're giving up, is the freedom of privacy, the freedom to do things (legal or not) w/o the government invading your privacy w/o probable cause. When your car is illegally searched because you drove it onto the street from your private garage, doesn't mean you should give up the freedom to drive it - you should fight the illegal search (using an analogy that you used, no one is forcing you to use the ISP) - it's all about this quote, and the shame of it is, most people don't connect the dots, and will themselves (that's you), suffer when this country finishes up becoming a police state.
- fugeelama, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3@bigt8r
I've seen people get notices like that before, and I know your provider can monitor the actual traffic (so if I open up The Pirate Bay or Demonoid in my web browser and download a file from a link on their site, my ISP will see what's going on). My question is a little more specific: can the ISP see that I typed "windows vista cracked" into the search box in a P2P program (like Kazaa and Napster, ah I miss the good old days)? As far as I know, the program isn't crawling the web or referencing a link to a file from a website, it's just searching the P2P network for files with those keywords.
Blame it on collective paranoia, but I'm really curious. I wonder if your ISP can nail you for looking for copyrighted material vs. actually downloading it. - inactive, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3@bovester
Most proxy servers record the same information... so no. It's not any safer. Government can still pull records and track you down. - digitalprimate, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3It would seem that there are two possible defenses to ISP "spying." One would maintain that the Internet is, as some have pointed out, like a public park in which you have little expectation of privacy. The other would maintain that if you have nothing to hide, it shouldn't matter if your ISP collects private data.
If you accept the first argument, you're forgetting that sometimes people like to have a private conversations with friends over by that lovely tree in the park. No one is within earshot, so they do, in fact, have some expectation of privacy. If someone hid in the bushes and eavesdropped we'd think that person was a jerk. In other words, the Internet may be a type of public space, but in many circumstances people do have a reasonable expectation of some level of privacy in public spaces.
Now, to those who say if you've nothing to hide, why worry if someones snooping: how about you leave the bathroom stall door open at work next time you defecate; or maybe leave your bank statement open and on your desk when you go to lunch; perhaps you should leave all the lights on and the windows open next time you make love to your significant other. You're not doing anything illegal or wrong - why should you mind if we all take a look? You've nothing to hide, right? - schoate09, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3I hereby order you to Cease and Desist posting that heximal number.
The number, 455FE10422CA29C4933F95052B792AB2 is a copyrighted code for the schoate09 media format system. This number has been copyrighted, and I demand immediate removal by the digg team.
Signed, schoate09 enterprises.
//sarcasm. - motang, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3Yep I agree Charter is really good, and they have good service. They don't really care as to what you do online.
@fyberoptic I use OpenDNS, I have setup OpenDNS as my primary DNS server and Charter as the secondary. So try out OpenDNS and you shouldn't get the ad based web page suggestion when you misspell an URL. - thedr96run, on 10/11/2007, -2/+5I guess my biggest problem with this is the following:
Prior to digital technology, data processing, the Internet, etc... this wasn't really possible. There was simply too much data and no go manner to sift through it. They couldn't track what books we were reading in the library. When that was the case, this information was supposedly our's and protected as part of our personal liberties (freedoms) from spying. All of the sudden, out of nowhere, we are being spyed on by the government simply because they can.
To all of those "what do you have to hide?" pundits... Absolutely nothing. I have a piece of crap website that is static HTML and couple of photos to update people on my upcoming wedding. I play online poker, I read Digg, CNN, and in general, do some searching and research on my own. Sometimes I read stuff about Iran and Iraq to do my own research about the situation over there. What business is that of the government?
An interesting little snippit from: http://www.usconstitution.net/constnot.html#privacy
The right to privacy
The Constitution does not specifically mention a right to privacy. However, Supreme Court decisions over the years have established that the right to privacy is a basic human right, and as such is protected by virtue of the 9th Amendment. The right to privacy has come to the public's attention via several controversial Supreme Court rulings, including several dealing with contraception (the Griswold and Eisenstadt cases), interracial marriage (the Loving case), and abortion (the well-known Roe v Wade case). In addition, it is said that a right to privacy is inherent in many of the amendments in the Bill of Rights, such as the 3rd, the 4th's search and seizure limits, and the 5th's self-incrimination limit.
It seems to me that we, inherently, have the right to privacy, but that was revoked with the digital age. - ShadowKlown, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2I was hoping to see a list of Major ISP's and whether or not they do traffic shaping or throttle BT.
- bobbknight, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2The short answer, all ISP's spy on their customers, plain and simple.
If you want or need to hide on the internet, anonymous proxies and tor with the onion router system with encryption are the best safe guards.
- inspecality, on 10/11/2007, -1/+3@ geomon
It's our information. Your examples are so unrelated my head hurts from even trying to put the two together. The ISPs collect our information , and you want them to keep it private what exactly they are hiding from us? Businesses shouldn't be able to collect private info on their customers without said customers knowing what's going on. - DrDabbles, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2@fugeelama
The answer is YES! ANYTHING you do online can be tracked. Rather easily, I might add. Especially by YOUR ISP. The point here is that if you do something illegal online, assume someone knows about it. If they decide to act, you might be in a bit of trouble. If not, you're fine.
Also keep in mind that your Terms Of Service with your ISP most likely prohibits you from downloading copyrighted content that you have not been permitted access to. In other words, were you to watch a TV clip on YouTube and the creator wanted to be pissy, they could subpoena all their ISP buddies to find out which customers viewed the clip. Then, they can send you a C&D.
This is true not only of HTTP traffic, but of basically every protocol under the sun. Unless you have gone to some EXTREME lengths to hide who you are and/or the content within your packets. And once again, because your ISP is a choke-point for all traffic flowing to and from your location, they have you anyway. Moreover, some of the less reputable providers have been known to do a man-in-the-middle trick with SSL traffic, whereby they intercept your request to a secure server and proxy the traffic to and from. Basically, this allows them to decrypt any "secure" communications...such as that done with your online banking.
Here's a tinfoil hat. - Yarps, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2http://www.blackboxsearch.com/
http://www.mysecureisp.com/ - bumpinvolvo, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2Time Warner FTL :(
- ShawnHunt, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2Dugg for the Cox Communications info.
- cactus476, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2https://secure.logmein.com/products/hamachi/default.asp
- geomon, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2@VintageMud
"It's not that we necessarily have anything to hide (although I'm certain that there are many that do), it's that we enjoy our privacy and having a lack of information about ourselves unavailable to the general public."
Herein lies one of the fundamental misconceptions of the web: that it functions with privacy. There is nothing about your IP address that is private. You are assigned your IP address by a private company, but that is the only "private" entity in the whole transaction. The rest operates in a public sphere. When you operate in the internet space you are engaging in behavior that is just like being in a public park; you have no expectation of privacy.
You should always conduct yourself as though you were standing in a public space while on the web. - geomon, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2Quest made the best point of all the ISPs: the market should decide the data retention policies. And because they provided the least amount of information about their data retention policies, the market should punish them for their abuse *if that is what the market feels is important!*
The problem is, most internet surfers hardly think about their surfing habits or care who is watching them. They don't care about cameras on the lamp posts at public crossings, they don't care about large-scale wiretapping programs by the government. It doesn't affect them personally.
Until their lives are damaged in some way by internet snooping, you won't see a commercial on television about Quest's/Verizon's/Whoever's Privacy Policy.
And the ISPs know it. - CLShortFuse, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1You guys are taking this way too seriously. They don't log the data, they probably don't even log the connection, just the IP routing history. They don't even log URLs ('cept Qwest). It's like with a phone company. They don't record the audio from every phone call ever made, but they do have a log of times and durations.
I've middle-man "attacked" my college network and logged all data on port 5190 (AIM Protocol). You could see everybody's unencrypted AIM conversations unless it was encrypted it with a key (which isn't hard to do). Megabytes in minutes. Think how much an ISP would have to spend on hard drives.
If you guys think this is wrong, think about it the other way. You guys want your internet records to be purged and anonymous at all times? What about harassing/threatening emails? Hosting a website from your own home that hosts illegal content (pedaphilia stuff) and then sharing the DDNS hostname. If the ISP don't log what IP was used by which user, police couldn't crack down on the illegal users. Of course you'll need a warrant. And they even said, ISP don't check URLs, ('cept maybe Quest) so it's probably just what user had what IP address and at what time, just like phone records work. - keksovkeks, on 01/24/2008, -0/+1About use proxy and anonymous surfing http://vprivatenetwork.com/index.php?action=config
- shredswithpiks, on 10/11/2007, -1/+2"So watch which sites you visit and everything will work out okay."
unacceptable. - MrDo, on 10/11/2007, -1/+2I find it mostly, annoying. I just don't like being monitored. I do realize that privacy are a different beast on the internet that the best approach is to assume you have none.
Still if your ISP keeps complete records of everything you do and on top of that intends to make money from that, I'd say that the best way to beat it is by posioning their data.
Your activity still gets logged but at least you get to throw a lot of noise in there.
So what we could do was create a (cross platform) agent that simulates different types of traffic. http browsing could be a start. But it could extend to other (application) protocols. Of course it would be a arms race since the logging systems in use would be expanded to detect people posioning their data mining. And the distribution of the program and updates would have to be encrypted and delivered from random sources at least.
The guestion is, do we care enough to write such a program? I don't think I do.
Another thing that I have been wondering is why does so many people place so much trust in their ISPs and goverments. Perhaps most here is too young to know better. I don't care if people knows that I have a subscription to huster.com but others might not like the world to know. There are so many examples of failed attempts of keeping private data private. Goverments and politics change so even if you are happy and trust your current goverment, how about in 10 or 15 years?
There are companies who lives by collecting information about people and then selling it. And it is not uncommon for companies to use these services for profiling people when hiring. Even though they don't get a complete specific listing all data, it is still a very detailed profiling. So your surfing habits could end up being used for profiling you before your next job interview. - one2gamble, on 10/11/2007, -1/+2So, why doesnt someone just take the isp's to court and demand they release their data gathering policies?
- FyberOptic, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1@ motang
Not a big fan of OpenDNS just because they do the same ad-based "page not found" system that Charter does. I know they have to make money somehow, and it's much more justified for them to do it than Charter considering I'm already paying them for their service, but that's just not for me either way. I noticed OpenDNS has some neat features aside from that when I mucked around with it once before, though. I just haven't had any particular use for them as of the moment to warrant using it over just using a public DNS server like I do now.
@ xelloss
They send out the letters, but chances are that means the companies were requesting your customer info to go after you, and just Charter refused, but sent you a warning. Many companies do this. Whether that's the case with that situation, it's hard to say, but I'd like to think they protect their customers.
That said, try using and recommending PeerGuardian. I honestly have no idea if it has any affect against the media companies trying to catch you, but I use it, and have only ever had one letter from Charter about downloading stuff, and that came via email, about a movie I never even downloaded. -
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