What is Digg?202 Comments
- marksven, on 10/12/2007, -2/+15Why are Americans not furious about things like this? Do people even care?
And the people who say they are okay with the government spying on them seem to be the same people who believe in conservative ideals like the right to bear arms, which is there to protect ourselves from our own government.
Would people really be happy if we had the KGB secret police here? As long as I am doing anything wrong there is nothing for me to worry about right? - evizaer, on 10/12/2007, -2/+12"I'm glad to see that the government is putting forth an effort to protect us.
I don't understand the problem with some complete stranger opening up your mail to ensure that it is OK.
I don't consider it an invasion of privacy because they didn't actually use the knowledge they have of you in anyway, and to say that the CIA has a database somewhere with a copy of your letter on file is completely and utterly paranoid. If you don't have anything to hide why hide it."
this is absolute bullhonkey. you apparently would condone someone watching you from across the street, tailing you in your car, watching you masturbate, videotaping your sex, as long as they don't use it against you? You're one scary individual. I hope you don't get into the government.
People (i'm pretty damn sure)have a right to keep what is theirs as only theirs. This isn't some egalitarian police state... yet. - marksven, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8There is a difference between Customs opening your packages to check for contraband (drugs, money laundering, etc) and opening your paper-only mail to READ it.
- Abx0r, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8Tampering with the Mail = Federal Offense. How ironic.
- carpespasm, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5and this has been policy for years apparently. isn't it nice to know that your email can be monitored without warrant, your phone as well, your international mail can be screened the same as in a prison, and you can be under video surveilance any time you're not hiding in your own basement.
you can always catch someone breaking the law if you follow them long enough. and in modern nanny state america, you can always have following you; "for your own protection" of course - Optomas, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6U.S. Constitution: Fourth Amendment
Fourth Amendment - Search and Seizure
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
. - pixelwerx, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6We've already started down the slippery slope.
The no-fly list. Unwarranted phone tapping. The NSA snooping library book lists. This is not a test! This is an actual emergency.
We are losing our civil liberties one step at a time. And if you dare question the government's methods you are branded un-American, a traitor, or a terrorist sympathizer.
According to my web server's logs, The Department of Homeland Security has visited my "Local Nightlife & Entertainment" website thirty-two times since the start of the new year. Thirty-two times in six days! Not hits...visits.
Don't think they're not watching you too. - fyre2012, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6americans are born with potential, but raised in a system that keeps everyone stupid so they're easier to be marketed to (i.e. more gulliblet to believe they're not being screwed and actually NEED whatever it is being sold to them)
it's no wonder that people don't care about things like this. they have no idea whats really going on in the first place. they're socialized to be stupid. - Gregd, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4WARNING!
THIS COMMENT HAS BEEN INSPECTED AND FOUND TO BE THREAT TO HOMELAND SECURITY AND WAS THEREFORE DELETED.
DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY - mistshadow2k4, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3"Some people seem to have forgotten (or be completely unaware of) the fact that the United States is a country at war, and is currently under - for want of a better word - siege by terrorists. "
Siege? What siege? 9/11 was over FOUR YEARS AGO. What's happened since then is the US attacking another country, not the other way around. No one is laying siege on the US except it's own politicians.
And opening paper-only mail? What did they think it was, plans to lay siege on the White House? Yeah right. No, what happened is that they now have blanket permission to invade people's privacy, so now it's become routine. Would this have happened if the letter had been sent to anyone involved with our government? Of course not, they're above suspicion!
I'm going to be 35 next month; I know there must be a few folks here my age or even older. Remember when the US constantly criticized the Soviet Union for doing stuff like this? For years there you couldn't go a whole week without hearing how the Russian people's freedom was being impinged upon. That's like criticizing Hitler and then implementing a Nazi government.
And, as you can tell from these comments, many people have been brainwashed into thinking that taking away the rights they were guaranteed by the Bill of Rights is somehow a good thing. Also eerily reminiscent of Soviet Russia, where reporters would talk to people who said what their government did was good for them. - drag0n, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Another great reason to not have anything to do with the USA.
- TKDWILSON, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4""""Why are Americans not furious about things like this? Do people even care?""""""
News Flash!!!!!!!! International packages have been opened for years!!. If nothing else, you have to report the contents for tariffs. If you are sending it through the US mail overseas you need to expect it to be opened by someone at some point. So you don't want international packages and letters opened? There is a lot of crap they could send through the mail. If you want privacy, encrypt your message and email it. That will give you some level of security.
Eric Wilson - Superfluous, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4you guys are all missing the point. this action is legal. it was made legal through the patriot act. that is why they disclose to you that they read your mail, it is part of the law. is it right? not in my opinion. but it is legal. if you want to fight it call your local senator and make clear to them your opposition to the patriot act.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4"Why are Americans not furious about things like this? Do people even care?"
No, they don't care. Not as long as they can still buy SnackWells at the grocery store, watch football and Desparate Housewives and drive their cars. People are placated. Those that aren't are resigned to face the lack of support they would have for giving a *****.
If you pointed this story out to the average person on the street, they wouldn't see what the problem was. They would probably say "it's just a little bit of privacy, but it's for the greater good - for safety". People probably think (and I bet we'll see it mentioned in this thread somewhere) that "you have no right to private communications with people who aren't inside of your country". Freedom my ass. - rft3rd, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Another great reason to not have anything to do with the USA
WTF dude?
You think they don't do that in your country too??? anything comming in from abroad is subject to this just like you have to go through customs to enter a foreign county (or returning to yours) same same..
So look into your own country before you trash mine. - mushoo, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3You people seriously need to recheck your logic.
Yes it is true that this sort of thing has been going on for some time. As far as I'm aware though it only applied to packages and not personal correspondence. I can understand checking packages but not letters. The terrorists are light years ahead of using letters.
But just because you panzies are scared ***** by the media and government blitz propaganda following 9/11 doesn't erase the fact that one of the founding principles of this country was liberty over all.
People such as you would have been called tories way back in the day.
I would rather be blown up by a terrorist than keep heading in the hole we are going into. - nerd1701, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Here's the ACLU take on all of this:
"Under current law, the Customs Service is empowered to search without a warrant inbound mail handled by the United States Postal Service (USPS), and packages and letters handled by private carriers such as Federal Express and the United Parcel Service. This power derives from the traditional authority of the sovereign to protect its borders against inbound contraband, and to collect duties on inbound freight. The Customs Service seeks to expand this authority to enable it to search outbound mail handled by the United States Postal Service without a warrant, any form of judicial supervision, and any evidence of crime. Even "reasonable suspicion" of crime would not have to be found. If this proposal becomes law, there would be no way for a person in the United States to send a private letter to a person outside the United States.
The Fourth Amendment protects the privacy of U.S. mail as if it had been kept by the sender in his home. Ex parte Jackson, 96 U.S. 727, 732-733, 735 (1878); U.S. v. Van Leeuwen, 397 U.S. 249, 252-52 (1970). It cannot be searched without a search warrant based on probable cause. "
Source: http://www.aclu.org/privacy/gen/15444leg20001018.html - eliomar, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3invasion of privacy. thats frelling wrong. And they say "for the protection of your freedom". yeah, my butt.
- Obvioustroll, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Jeez,
Doesn't *anybody* know the law anymore?
Packages that cross national borders are subject to inspection.
Haven't you people ever heard of *Customs*? You know? Do the words "Do you have anything to declare?" ring a bell?
Do you really think that cargo ships don't have their cargo opened and inspected when they dock, anywhere in the world? Do you really think that just because a piece of cargo is labeled "mail" that those rules don't apply?
From the damn article:
“All mail originating outside the United States Customs territory that is to be delivered inside the U.S. Customs territory is subject to Customs examination,” says the CBP Web site. That includes personal correspondence. “All mail means ‘all mail,’” said John Mohan, a CBP spokesman, emphasizing the point. - bash, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2since many of you carry that "those who have nothing to fear have nothing to hide" attitude, let me ask you this question:
if the deer have nothing to hide, then why are they running from the hunter?
i mean, its only the SHIFTY elements of the deer population that run away, right? - lab_rat, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Sorry to post twice but the argument "If you have nothing to hide you won't mind an unannounced cavity search by unidentified agents at 3 a.m." is not why this country has fought for freedom.
Anyone saying "If you have nothing to hide you won't worry about privacy" does not understand what our country is about. This sort of psuedo-patriotism is more dangerous than any number of terrorists. - legendxx, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3that sh!t needs to stop
- Ringo47, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2"I'm glad to see that the government is putting forth an effort to protect us.I don't understand the problem with some complete stranger opening up your mail to ensure that it is OK."
The constitution promises the right to free speech/expression and privacy. The problem with this is they invaded this man's privacy without reason and with hopes of prosecuting him based on what he wrote (his expression/speech).
"and to say that the CIA has a database somewhere with a copy of your letter on file is completely and utterly paranoid."
At one time, you'd be labelled "completely and utterly paranoid" if you said the government was reading your mail at all. And if they're brazen enough to read people's mail, there's absolutely nothing stopping them from scanning it and saving it somewhere. Hell, I can buy a decent scanner and 2 TB of hard drive space for under $3000. God only knows how much I could get if I had the $36.5 billion dollar budget of the department of homeland security. With decent compression, low enough resolution, and 1 bit color (monocrhome), you can get a readable scan of an 8.5x11 page in under 100K.
"If you don't have anything to hide why hide it."
Why not post your full real name, age, address, phone number, parent's full names + address, wife's name, your cell phone number, your kid's names, where they go to school, your favorite restaurant/bar, your plans for next week, and post a link to pictures of your family. You have nothing to hide, so you won't mind everyone knowing this, right? - tolstoy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2"Don't speak for me... thanks! I'd rather give up some of my precious little privacy and be free of 911's! So STFU and don't talk for all americans!"
"A right of free correspondence between citizen and citizen on their joint interests, whether public or private and under whatsoever laws these interests arise (to wit: of the State, of Congress, of France, Spain, or Turkey), is a natural right; it is not the gift of any municipal law, either of England, or Virginia, or of Congress, but in common with all other natural rights, it is one of the objects for the protection of which society is formed and municipal laws established." --Thomas Jefferson to James Monroe, 1797. ME 9:422
"The right of free correspondence is not claimed under [the] Constitution [of the United States], nor the laws or treaties derived from it, but as a natural right, placed originally under the protection of our municipal laws and retained under the cognizance of our own courts." --Thomas Jefferson: Virginia Petition, 1797. ME 17:361
Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.
Benjamin Franklin - rft3rd, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Sorry to post twice but the argument "If you have nothing to hide you won't mind an unannounced cavity search by unidentified agents at 3 a.m." is not why this country has fought for freedom.
Anyone saying "If you have nothing to hide you won't worry about privacy" does not understand what our country is about. This sort of psuedo-patriotism is more dangerous than any number of terrorists.
This is ludicrous. anyoen with an ounce of brain matter between their ears will know this is directly related to the story (as it should...)about a piece of mail being read. not cavity searches, not anything other then that. lets stay on topic people.
as far as Pseudo Patriotism... i dont care what previx you put in front of it... patriotism is not what this is... it is a point of view which i share with many others here it seems much like many others share you POV. It is a shame that this has to be relegated to calling people "*****" and "*****" the USA. I dont get it. its a bout a piece of mail. how many time have you not recieved a letter from someone or something gotten lost int he mail? do you run ad scream conspiracy? Id bet someone read it... oh my!! what ever am i to do!
One other question.. with all the id theft out there, how many of use shred allyour mail when done? id bet a good percent does not.. i guarantee you,, someone out there has had their mail read by someone other then yourself...
food for thought thats all - sdfisher, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Well, gosh. What do you expect?
International mail and packages has always been subject to inspections. Otherwise it would be trivially easy to sneak any number of things into the country.
Also, I spent most of the last two years in the Philippines. White it is a strong ally of the US government, they have not had a great deal of success smoking out the cells of the Abu Sayyaf and al Qaeda there. - kris2lee, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2It seams more and more to me that USA is soon same or even worse than USSR (Soviet Union) was. People will have no freedom, they will be but into jail without reason, everything will be watched by goverment agencies...
- Twenty, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Man I miss the days when even government officials hated government.
- bluefire0728, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3"If you have nothing to hide, you should have nothing to worry about."
I HATE that goody-goody-two-shoes response. It's been documented that even a mere political rival is subject to secret wiretaps and spying, and let's not forget PETA or private citizens who don't share the beliefs in the policy of a current administration.
Any administration, whether it be left or right, or conservative or liberal, or Democrat or Republican, should not be allowed to do ***** like this. - nogami, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Enjoy your "land of the free"... Time seems to be running out...
Remember, it's "for your own good"... Government knows best... - vvaduva, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Great..I am glad they are doing this. There is no constitutional right to privacy on international mail...this article is totally assinine, anti-Bush propagandist CRAP!
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent."
- Thomas Jefferson
"The man who would choose security over freedom deserves neither."
- Thomas Jefferson - rabidjester, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1When did my countrymen get so scared of terrorism? When did we become such wimps about this stuff? I feel that this is the fault of the political parties - how else could the citizens be so cozy with the ruling class?
- sdcdiggs, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1
"Goodman is no stranger to mail snooping; as an officer during World War II he was responsible for reading all outgoing mail of the men in his command and censoring any passages that might provide clues as to his unit’s position. “But we didn’t do it as clumsily as they’ve done it, I can tell you that,” Goodman noted, with no small amount of irony in his voice. “Isn’t it funny that this doesn’t appear to be any kind of surreptitious effort here,” he said."
OH HOW IRONIC. They do use to do this, now hes being searched - AjaxDiggz, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1This seems fairly stupid, even for DHS. Why would they announce that they were reading your mail? To make sure that you knew you were a subject of interest? I'm betting that I see this as a snopes.com listing within the week.
- aliasunknown, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I'm really curious if any of the people advocating the government's right to "insure your safety" have read 1984, Brave New World, or any such dystopia. Hell, even Serenity shows a valid point.
While these works can all be deemed extreme, it is just because it is so far away. Gradually, rights are taking away, and not noticed. Eventually, for our own safety, we must reach home before nightfall, report all food and exercise to a local health clinic to ensure we are eating properly, and make sure we watch the proper dose of fabricated media.
And so what if you didn't do anything wrong? Only expressed your opinion right? Like that blogger who almost lost his scholarship because he said a professor was incompetent? Right and wrong are subjective. The current US president would probably claim my lack of support for the war on terror as wrong. I create an aura of uncertainty and fear. I must be disposed. - ManiacFive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Man they should have just do what Royal mail do over here when MI5 are reading my mail, torn the envelope really obviously, then put it in a plastic bag with a big "Sorry, damaged in transit" sticker, no one would suspect they'd read it :-D
- IceUck, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Let's essentially tell everyone else in the world "we'll do what we want, and we don't give a damn what you think"
Let's invade another country on what are largely false pretenses, then say "it was a good thing to do anyway"
Let's establish a precedent of justifying our aggression by citing potential threat and our need to be preemptive in this nuclear (NOT nuke-you-lerr) age
Let's piss of pretty much the entire world...
...then let's all tacitly agree that we need to live in more of a police state if we want the kind of safety we enjoyed back before a large percentage of the world would be happier to see us all dead and gone.
- mofomojo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"If you have nothing to hide, you should have nothing to worry about."
It's a well known fact that everybody has something to hide. Even you, probably. The fact of the matter is, that they can now abuse privileges granted for protecting citizens against terrorism for mere petty matters.
I wouldn't feel comfortable with a camera snooping in on me at home, would you? - tolstoy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.
Benjamin Franklin"
That was a great quote......in 1947. Ol' Ben had no way of knowing how the wolrd would be after 2001 - sadly, a very different world, one in which that kind of thinking CANNOT apply anymore I'm afraid.
We were not bombed. This is not WW3! Japanese bombing Pearl Harbor was worse. It is not a different place unless we lose our rights. I never have been afraid of terrorists in this country. The government is always more dangerous. They make the laws that can make you a terrorist. - DewayneSmith, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2I'll let Amendment IV do the talking:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
-Dewayne - tolstoy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Everyone has something to hide. Everyone has secrets. This is why the mail is supposed to be protected from tampering. Otherwise, nothing would get done in this country if you thought that your mail and packages would be opened. This is why People are afraid to have their e-mail searched. We have a right to privacy in this country, even from the government. It is not the fact that you haven't done anything wrong, it is the fact that they invaded your privacy. As if they went in your house and looked through your diary and trash. We have a right to not have the government read our mail and spy on us. Remember, one day the Republicans will not be power and someone else will be spying on us. This is why we to stop it now. Not because of them, but because of what it could become.
- absurdist, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Drink whisky.
Get angry.
Raise hell.
THAT was what the US was founded on.
How many of you ninnies have the balls to follow in the footsteps of the founding fathers? - Jetfire, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2This does not Violate the FOURTH AMENDMENT. This is something Crossing our National Boarders. In case you don't know The Boarder patrol dooes not need a warrant to search things crossing the boarder. This is the law of the land and has always been. Read the rest of the Constitution. Please!! The FOURTH AMENDMENT applies to the internal U.S. Also for all those that here the who read and hear Bush authorize Wire taps on US citizens with out a warrant. It is only on calls going crossed our boarders (which falls under border seaches) and not internal calls which would be illegal.
You basically have no rights entering the US, they can search you anyway they want. - JimNtexas, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Customs has had the authority to open all mail entering this country for over 200 years.
File this under 'Y..A..W..N". - TennBikeBerk, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Unless I do something illegal, I don't want anybody spying on me, period. It's called privacy, and if I am a decent, law abiding citizen, I think I should be respected. I support the fourth amendment, and think it has been completely eroded lately.
- Ringo47, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"Actually if you read the story, it was an incomming letter from the Phillipeans not one he sent. the freedom of speach and expression is only towards US Citizens... not Philipinos."
I didn't even need to RTFA to know the sender was in the Philipines, but the receiver was in the United States. The letter and its contents were a private matter between the two of them. So, it's still the U.S. citizen's privacy that was being invaded.
On a side note, since "freedom of speach(sic) and expression is only towards US Citizens", you gotta appreciate the irony that the U.S. is currently spending billions of dollars invading Iraq to spread freedom (suposedly) and to stop stuff like this from happening there?
"besides,, for 20 bucks i can get all the above info from legal public recored that are held on us all! woo hoo!!"
I think you know I don't really care about your information enough to pay $20. I also think you said that to get out of posting it. A little something to hide maybe? - Combat, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"You people seriously need to recheck your logic.
Yes it is true that this sort of thing has been going on for some time. As far as I'm aware though it only applied to packages and not personal correspondence. I can understand checking packages but not letters. The terrorists are light years ahead of using letters.
But just because you panzies are scared ***** by the media and government blitz propaganda following 9/11 doesn't erase the fact that one of the founding principles of this country was liberty over all.
People such as you would have been called tories way back in the day.
I would rather be blown up by a terrorist than keep heading in the hole we are going into."
I agree.
"Great..I am glad they are doing this. There is no constitutional right to privacy on international mail...this article is totally assinine, anti-Bush propagandist CRAP!"
Wow, what a dumbass. Maybe you should go back to school. But just to save you the time, read this:
Fourth Amendment - Search and Seizure
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Your mail are supposed to be treated as if it was your personal papers kept inside your home. People who aren't outraged about this should be. And for the record, i voted for Bush. I consider myself a conservative. I also think our safety is important, but opening personal correspondance is just overboard. I kinda doubt any terrorists would be giving out their plans for any attack in snail mail anyway. - SavannahLion, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Before I begin, I'd like to point out that I've always known that customs inspected incoming mail. What I don't like is how customs officials are just a bunch of bumbling idiots tearing ***** apart without regard for the people that the mail belongs to.
For example, I had a friend in Japan send me two toys (both identical) as gifts. Since the toy was popular at the time, she couldn't find them at the same time so she sent them in two separate shipments.
When I received them, one package was unmolested. The unmolested package was actually sent at a later date, but mysteriously arrived before the first one she sent. The first package she sent arrived with it's box flaps open to the breeze, customs didn't even bother re-sealing it. To add on even more insult, customs opened the outer shipping box, removed the protective bubble wrap. Took the toy out of it's original packaging then stuffed the toy back in the outer package without even bothering to repackage anything properly. The toy didn't break, but it came in scuffed and pretty beaten up. My friend even sent along an extra surprise for me, packages of Japanese candy and bubblegum. Naturally, they were missing in the opened box along with the required "Happy Birthday" letter.
I was furious and sent off a letter demanding compensation for the damage from customs, (the toys, including exchange rates, shipping and various costs worked out costing my friend roughly $120 each). Customs refused. Claimed it should be covered by insurance if she bothered to pay for it (which she did). But the insurance claim was denied because it was considered customs problem AND I was in the U.S. By that time my friend already moved to another country, so it couldn't be handled on her end.
In short, customs was careless, my friend is out $120 and all I got was a piece of trash.
And for those of you who are defending customs (and by extension the Homeland Security Act) then you wait until something you have something shipped in from another country arrive destroyed or damaged and see how you feel. When customs ***** with your letters or packages, it takes months for it to arrive and takes even longer to resolve the claim. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Two words for ya: Wartime President.
hehe -
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