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39 Comments
- exaviger, on 10/12/2007, -17/+36wow that would be so cool!
You could have thousands of jdk's to choose from each with a cool different name and logo that require their very own jre.
Then you can have thousands of different forums and api's to support all the wonderful little flavours of java because its open source and we can just spread all the love.
ooooh and then when you write an app you can get your customers to install their very own jre depending on what flavour of java you used so that they can feel unique and special.
oh god shoot me now, this is the very reason I vomit at the thought of linux on the desktop.
Mod me down you god damn hippies! - duality, on 10/12/2007, -0/+17"So far, Sun has resisted many calls to open-source Java. The reason: Sun fears doing so will open the doors for competitors to grab and change Java, resulting in the kernel forking and compatibility problems."
It's simple. Sun still retains the rights to Java, but if they're so worried about the outside attacks on Java, why don't they submit the language specification to a standards body? After IEEE or somebody else has had their say about Java, what exactly could a competitor do? Microsoft already tried to grab and change Java, and Sun's rights were upheld back then in the courts.
Microsoft is already pushing for CLI (which .NET is based on) to become a standard: a REAL standard, not just a Microsoft-centric de facto standard. In my opinion, this is one of the few things that Microsoft is doing correctly, and Sun would do well to tear this page out of the Microsoft playbook and run with it. - suomi, on 10/12/2007, -1/+17I dunno - I think the analogy is slightly off. Linux distros ARE ten-a-penny - and yes it is confusing, but how many versions of MySQL are there floating around from different vendors? How many versions of KDE? How many versions of JBoss? I reckon Sun can open up Java (fully) and still retain identity and control.
- r121, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9Apache is open source, does it have these problems? How many different versions of Firefox do you have to worry about? Opening the source doesn't mean everybody will start putting out their own, incompatible versions. Rather, open source programs tend to draw all these independant developers together to contribute to the one, official version.
As to the hordes of Linux distributions available, there is only one version line of Linux, and for that matter, any of the software coming with it. The distributions, for the most part, are just different initial combinations of software and configuration. - mfearby, on 10/12/2007, -6/+10I mod you up, sir. I like the cut of your gib :-)
- Monkeyget, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4I think that unless you are a free software/linux zealot, it's a non issue.
You can already:
-have a full access to the latest development version of java 1.6 source code
-build custom version of the Java Runtime Environment(JRE), there are restriction on the redistribution of your custom JRE however. (To prevent the release of custom sun-JRE not really JRE compliant).
-submit bugs
-submit fix propositions
-participate in the discussion about the evolution of java through Java Specification Request (JSR)
The main issue that make it almost-open-source-but-not-really is the problems linux distributions have to ship java in their linux distribution due to license problems. - Pyrolistical, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2huh?
Java needs a database?
They have JDBC, so Java can pretty much use any database. - birdadderley, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2cmon people.. when did this become another MS vs Linux battle.. if i was mistaken it's java.. ... . . . . . .. . . . .. . . . .(sighs)
- GingerDog, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Sun are going to opensource everything eventually anyway - listen to LugRadio Season 3 Ep 10 where Simon Phillips stated that they wish to open source everything eventually (See http://lugradio.org/episodes/45 for download).
I'd like to think that a true open source license for Java would allow it to be distributed freely in e.g. Debian or RedHat, hopefully leading to a greater uptake of the language within the OSS community. I don't think it would lead to fragmentation, as it's development no doubt requires significant resources (just like OpenOffice, Firefox, the kernel etc).
DG. - nofxjunkee, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2exaviger: right, just like there are all sorts of different versions of php, python, perl, ruby. stop whining about something that hasn't happened and think about the possibilites of having an open java. like being able to compile it for any architecture you want, not just the ones Sun releases.
- salmonmoose, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Tiger - XP users can double click on java files to open them (provided they actually install java and don't use the cut down version that ships with XP) - I'm guessing Linux is the same, and it follows that OSX would be similar, who exactly CAN'T just run java files?
- swami26, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I feel that Sun would benefit from opening the JVM that is deployed on desktops and servers. Sun and its users would all benefit from the many people who would further try to optimize the JVM on these environments and kill bloat (unnecessary resource usage). In addition, the open source community model would make it easier to extend and optimize java for new platforms or take advantage of new chip-sets. The point of making this open source is that so many people now use Java that they have a vested interest in making it better. Further, I feel that most of the versioning would happen in the API, rather than the virtual machine, which would be a good thing. There is a way to open source java to promote community creatively without watering down the quality or functionality of the Java brand.
On the other hand, I think it would be counter productive to open up the JVM for mobile phones. I think a company (not community) focus is needed to ensure quality implementation on architecture that consitenly evolves very rapidly.
Lastly, I didn't really understand how great of company Sun was in terms of innovation until it open sourced solaris, sparc, & ZFS. - sbrown123, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1There are already a bunch of different versions of Java. Where have you been? There's Classpath, GCJ, Kaffe, and Harmony just to name a few. For the most part, they are all compatible. But they also all lack functionality because they had to start from the ground up rather than from a standard base. Sun could open source Java and STILL remain the standard holder. By open sourcing it, particularly under something like the LGPL, Sun's JVM could come bundled in Linux distributions. And there might even be some new improvements that Sun has never envisioned or was too unimaginative to implement!
- Crazen, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1You're doing a horrible job masquarading as somebody that knows anything about java...
- Pawel555, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2What do you mean there is no good IDE which could compete with .NET. What about Eclipse?
- HalfNakedPappy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Sun should license Java so that it may be freely distributed with Linux distros... problem solved.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Open sourcing java will be the death of Sun absolutely. Here's the problem, Sun is NOT listening to their customers. Being a Java developer that has switched to Microsoft I know EXACTLY what Sun is missing, a good IDE, language, database, and web framework. Sun needs to take notes from Microsoft and start moving fast. .NET is a WAAAAY better solution and Java has been left in the dust. Developers want an EASY solution not MORE GARBAGE!!
Oh, an my hats off to Sun on the Studio Creator, very niiiice. - supergwiz, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I agree with open sources because this will accelerate innovation in the language, something Java has lacked.
For the people who say that this will cause too many branched; in the long run more choice is always better. There will always be a baseline (e.g. Java Foundation Approved) version of java that 98% percent of people will use. The advantage will be when the main branch borrows innovations made in smaller offsprings. - cwcentral, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1open sourcing the JDK will be an omission that the JCP failed. The JCP works, it just needs to move faster. Sun is on the right track to open source specific APIs (JAI for instance) though.
- birdadderley, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1as some rednecks like to say.... "if it taint broke, don fix it"
- Shazam999, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Huh? Eclipse is an excellent, excellent IDE and better than VS2005 (which is still pretty good).
Database?? Why does Sun need to create Yet Another Database, when Java works fine with existing databases?
Web Framework? There's a billion for you to choose from. Sure, EJBs suck harder than a hooker looking for her next hit, but there's other solutions out there.
Are you sure you're a developer and not a poseur? - sbrown123, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Dude, you been living in a closet or something? Both Eclipse and NetBeans are top end IDE's for Java. I currently use Visual Studio 2005 at work and have to say: it sucks. People who complain about Java desktop apps being slow should take Visual Studio 2005 for a spin. It is majorly slow and choppy even on a Pentium 4. And theres no way to extend it! For example, I tried to find plugins for both MySQL and Subversion. The internal database tools don't work with anything other than Microsoft or Oracle products so you have to hand code your MySQL crap the old fashion way. There was a Subversion plugin called Ankh but, after installing it, I found it bugged out from time to time. According to Ankh developers there are certain "issues" with VS2005 that make implementing Subversion a fight of futility. I don't doubt it. Visual Studio 2005 is "use Microsoft or die" route. I don't like it. SharpDevelop and MonoDevelop seem like better .Net routes for true developers.
- pgouy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1The problem its not *WHEN* they're going to make Java opensource, but *HOW* they will be doing it!
- elmigs, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Come on! You are missing the point!
There is the Java Language specification....
And the Java platform implementation (compiler, jre, etc) The idea is making the implementation open source. Specification would be still behind the control of the java community.
If they make the code of the jre and jdk open source.The Java is going to get the lift it needed by a very long time. Better garbage collection anyone? YES PLEASE. - ThirdPrize, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1How many different Javas are there at the moment? Standard, Enterprise, for your PDA, for your phone.
- jamief, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Yeah but what you can't do is to redistribute your derivative version of Java, *and* once you see the source you're legally tainted so you can't work on a clean-room Java implementation either.
So, if there's a bug in the class libraries or JVM (or spec) that really pisses you off, you basically have to decide that you're willing to never be able to work on an open source Java project ever again, and then submit your fix and wait patiently for Sun to maybe decide to integrate your fix at some point.
Forking the code base, which is the threat that keeps most open source projects from getting completely stagnant or out of touch with users (or the tool which keeps the code alive while one particular organization that manages it festers) isn't available. Have a look at the Java bug database; there are some really problematic bugs that have been in there for five years or more that are never going to be fixed because Sun doesn't feel like it, even though users are begging for it. - halik, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I wasn't aware that there was a debate about open sourcing jave. Actually now I remeber, it was just wishful thinking on slashdot....
- halik, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2@r121
That's beacase the standard is already set - apache has the HTTP standard, firefox has the W3C standard. Same thing goes for open source JDKs - they have the standard, suns JAVA.
If sun was to open source that, it's analogous to apache inventing their HTTP RFC or firefox going the microsoft route and inventing html tags - Deusiah, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Exactly the kind of post made by someone who hasn't got a clue what they are talking about Exaviger. My advice to you is stay with Microsoft, you wouldn't understand Linux and it's philosophies as it requires an open mind, not a closed source mind.
- Rustbucket, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I believe it is CLR ("Common Language Runtime") not CLI ("Command Line Interface").
- bosewicht, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0This has been talked about for a few years now and it's prob not going to happen. Schwartz has stated on numerous times he has no intentions of open sourcing java.
- Crazen, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1LOL Did you garner this perl of wisdom from a reputable institution? When all you have is a hammer.... Talk about comparing apples to oranges.
- Pawel555, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0"In addition, the open source community model would make it easier to extend and optimize java for new platforms or take advantage of new chip-sets." This is crazy...just look how many problems we have with getting drivers that have minimum functionality in the free (libre) software community when it comes to GNU/Linux. Plus I share the concerns of others that once they "open-source" java, there will be hundreds of versions and all of them useless. The only reason C++ has legs and arms is because of .NET which became the defacto standard.
- valona, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0Exavige, old bean, that was a most rational argument.
- bubbagump, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2But you can never see the man behind the curtain...
The biggest risk is there are already too many pieces to java...the first comment is >so< right... - enzomedici, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1
Who needs Java when you have PHP? Sun is done. Stick a fork in it. - targetOO, on 10/12/2007, -7/+3I realy hope it dosnt become open source.
I can see no real advantages at all.
You would loose the one major advantage of Java being compatability.
Everything you could ever want to do with java you can put in a package,
and if thats not enough you are using the wrong language. - Tiger, on 10/12/2007, -7/+3totally agree.
open-sourcing java will lead to too many java's... too many java's is just confusing and "problematic."
all what i want from Sun is "PLEASE FOCUS on desktop deployment." and everything will be fine.
i want my clients to double click my java programs to run them, just double-click, no matter what platform they're on. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -7/+1I don't care whether this fat thing gets opensourced or not.
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