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56 Comments
- mykoleary, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3If you Dugg this story you used AJAX.
- interiot, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Nielsen has gone off the deep end.
method=POST broke the back button, that's even in RFC2616! Online banking / shoopping broke the back button.
Yes, one must be cognizant of its downsides, and never use AJAX with abandon. However, AJAX isn't going away anything soon, any more than method=POST. It's a rediculous argument. - boristylevich, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Anyone commenters above noticed the last lines of the document? ;)
"This is a spoof article. Please compare it with the original and you will see how little it has been changed.
Constructed by Chris McEvoy with apologies to Jakob Nielsen." - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Ajax applications and web browsing are two different animals, talking about them as a whole is kinda farfetched, the article misses the a point of AJAX: an extension of the use of web browsers for next level applications.
- _jinx_, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@r@in
My problems with Flash is merely it is not an software built truly for application development, it has its purposes and its uses no doubt. But when you want to integrate with Server Side Development it not fun at all. A lot of time is wasted fixing flash applications and bent code because of the poor integration. - fyngyrz, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1You silly people. Scroll to the bottom of the article and READ. :)
- _jinx_, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Sorry did not know the back buttong defined the "internet" the ability to build True Applications on the web is an innovation within itself. The fact that you can not take Ajax as being absolutely incredible is denying the possiblities of true web applications.. we can't program .exe's the rest of our lives!
- sonofalink, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Form posting broke the back button a loooong time ago.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0AJAX is simply not here to stay. As the story says, it broke one of the most fundamental parts of the internet up until now: The back button. This should have been stated in an RFC.
- mediaburn, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0what happened to flash? Its easy and fast to use.
- Interpol, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Everything with Ajax in the title makes front page.
- digikill, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Jakob Nielsen hates the intarwebs. He would have you all on lynx only using the web for "proper" research if he had his way.
- mgorbsky, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Why are people taking comments made in the article as truth? It's a flippin spoof. Not real. May be based on actual events (* cough * frames * cough *) but the names have been changed to protect the innocent.
When will we be able to filter for non-ajax related articles? - alex.bosworth, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I was totally fooled :/
thanks for linking to my article though :) - _jinx_, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0"what happened to flash? Its easy and fast to use."
Flash has horrible back end support, the fact that we need to rely on 3rd party software to properly sync with databases is time consuming and a lot of overhead.. with out the fact it's more money! - xutopia, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0"For new or inexperienced Web designers, I stand by my original recommendation." - Just don't web design?
- colebarnes, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0let the flaming commence...
i'm not ajax fan either... - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Indeed, I use AJAX to use meebo.com
I'm not saying that this WONT be a good way to have apps on the web, but it should not be used for full websites. For example, I use meebo.com daily, as well as digg. But I refuse to surf a site made completely of ajax that disallows and breaks the back button, which has been so sacred to us in the past.
May as well go back to telnet. Scroll, ya lazy bastards! - Boondoggle, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I dugg this just because I'm sick of all the Ajax posts.
- _jinx_, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0@novamonket
I can agree in many ways, however... the fact users have to rely again on more software or plugins is the cause of slow growing. Now focourse there are exceptions like Flash, however.. inless something innovative comes out of Java with out the java applets.. I just don't see it happening. - sleepless, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I digg it cuz it's a funnay spoof :-)
- themachina, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0AJAX is just like Flash was a couple years ago: used all over the place, usually for no reason other than it was the Next Big Thing.
Give it another year or two: the fad will be over, and it'll just be another handy tool for developers. - kidhero, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0"If you Dugg this story you used AJAX."
If you Dugg this story you used an implementation of javascript. - tommis, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0The article is really good. I've always tought Alertbox stuff is very informative. Perhaps poster (jobeats) should have included the full title and a little more description and longer quote from the article:
"Why Ajax Sucks (Most of the Time)
For new or inexperienced Web designers, I stand by my original recommendation. Ajax: Just Say No.
With respect to the use of ajax by highly skilled Web designers, I have changed my opinion somewhat: people who really know what they are doing can sometimes use ajax to good effect, though even experienced designers are advised to use ajax as sparingly as possible."
*end quote*
It's a good read for anyone programming with ajax, to keep in mind some gotchas and common design mistakes. This article is not pure anti-ajax :)... - theImposs1ble, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0"Ajax breaks the unified model of the Web and introduce a new way of looking at data that has not been well integrated into the other aspects of the Web. With ajax, the user's view of information on the screen is now determined by a sequence of navigation actions rather than a single navigation action."
well this guy might as well rule out flash-driven websites too. well at least for newbies.
we could just roll back the web standards! - r©ain, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0@_jinx_
I strongly dissagree with that statement.
Especially after the advent of AS2.0 and the latest Classes available for Flash 8 are very exciting.
I've created some very sizable Enterprise Services with Flash and continue to do so.
The language is very full featured and it's API is fairly solid.
What Flash requires however is a server-side support layer.
Like AJAX, SOAP provides this layer quite nicely and allows you to set up WebServiceConnectors to handle the SOAP calls and bind the resulting datasets to your components.
If you are unfamiliar with XML or SOAP and building Components... I could see where you'd have problems. But these days, building data driven applications is a walk in the park, but you have to stop using the Flash4 methodology of inline actionscript and go with a component based architecture. - notromda, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Oh please. Web pages suck. Computers suck. ATM's suck. Whatever it is, it can suck... if it's not done right. Out of the way scrooge.
To do ajax properly, one needs to provide fallback mechanisms so that the application works even without javascript and such. All of my ajax work is done this way. I test by turning javascript on and off, and I can still navigate through my app.
Oh no, the back button is broken! We can't bookmark something! Well, for many applications that's a good thing. I don't bookmark my bank's billpay section... I bookmark the login screen. A good application balances the ajax with the regular url approach, and provides good urls. The "pretty URL" structure used by Ruby on Rails, for example. Pages that are simply retrieved can be made with pretty URL's, possibly cached, and then the update functions can be done via ajax.
One very useful aspect of ajax is the fact that a page can be updated without having to lose the layout; for example, posting a new article in Typo. I can click the quick post link, type so stuff, and it updates the site, but I am still in the same admin page, so I don't have to go hunting to figure out where I am. It actually enhances usability. Broke the back button? Fine! I didn't want to go back to the "page" before I added the article; it would be out of date now anyway!
I'm sick and tired of the naysayers and scrooges out there that can't stand new fangled contraptions. Learn a new trick, or retire; in any case, get out of the way. - colebarnes, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0ha, we've been caught...
don't you know boristylevich, we all simply comment randomly without ever reading any article...
at least, apparently i do... - TechnoPops, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I was reading this and thinking, "This really sounds more like it's about frames than it is about AJAX," and then I read the comment about looking at the bottom of the page.
Ladies and gentlemen, you've all been 0wn3d by Chris McEvoy. - vbob, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0To sum up: Don't use it if you don't know what you're doing or if you're going to use it badly.
Yeah, that makes pretty good sense. - Ramon, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I don't see how fundamentally AJAX has anything to with the back button. In my opinion AJAX is a technology to retrieve information from the server, do something with that info and maybe show it to the visitor.
Indeed, if you use Ajax in a flashlike way and take a huge div and a menu, and 'ajax-retrieve' all info into the div when the menu is pressed, then indeed, the back-button is broke, but you are doing things wrong!
However you can do this if you make a web-application like an emailclient without too much problems.
IMO you should use Ajax if you have some information that does not need to be indexed by search engines or... if you want to digg an article... wouldn't it suck to have to submit the FP of digg.com everytime you dugg an article?
No, Ajax doesn't suck. - r©ain, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0"Flash has horrible back end support, the fact that we need to rely on 3rd party software to properly sync with databases is time consuming and a lot of overhead.. with out the fact it's more money!"
Hmmm...
Not sure how you went about synching with databases in Flash, but I've had no problem creating flash sites that are data driven. In fact, after the introduction of the XMLConnector Component and Data Binding Classes in MX 2004 Pro, it got a whole lot easier.
And to be on topic:
AJAX does not suck. What sucks is people who can't be bothered to learn how to use a tool that's available. Any language or protocol used for development has a learning curve. If all you can use is a WYSIWYG interface, are you really a developer? Or are you just a software jock?
I hand roll many solutions in many languages.
AJAX takes a lot of handrolling to biuld robust service classes.
Just like any other robust JavaScript Based front end would... surprise surprise.
In the next couple years, you'll see better WYSIWYG Support for AJAX in apps like DreamWeaver. Until then, if you can't deal with having to code, stick to your WYSIWYG, I'll stick to my text editor and continue to build AJAX and Flash apps. - diggerphelps, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0AJAX sucks.
Comet rulz! - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0It's not the code. I agree full well that its a great way to code web apps, but imo, thats it. Period. I believe Java is more efficient, but each to their own. AJAX driven web sites, however, do in ways break the internet. The spiders that index engines, and yes again, the back button all tend to fail when confronted with confunded web sites that attempt to use the "popular opinion" that AJAX is cool to market themselves.
- bhaugh, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0AJAX sucks?
Inattentive digg-whores suck. (RTFA.)
Narrow-minded armchair info architects suck. (DYNAMIC RPCS SANS PAGE RELOADS ROCK; EVER BUILD A WEB APPLICATION BEFORE?)
Novice buzzword-y web developers misusing AJAX sucks. (NO YOUR BLOG DOESN'T NEED AJAX.)
This Digg sucks. - drewdoog, on 10/26/2008, -0/+0When will web programmers learn that people hate ajax/flash, even when they are 'implemented correctly'? It does not matter whether you think its implemented correctly, its a pain in the ass to use because you leave the standards that people have used for the last 20 years.
- Modulo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Heh.. I was already formulating the words "what the hell's the matter with you you luddite" in my head by the time I got to the punchline. I think the phrase "Oh noes! It won't print out!! I bet it will have trouble outputting on stone tablets as well, groknar of the cave people!!" cause that's how I roll, yo.
- TimmyGUNZ, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I'm sick of people saying Ajax sucks because it broke the back button. The internet is still in such early stages of development that maybe the back button is on it's way out.
People need to learn to adapt to new ways of thinking. Using "tags" on emails, links and photos would've been thought of as "too confusing" to some, but GMail, Del.Icio.Us and Flickr proved that theory wrong. - kingamoon, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0What book is the one that talks about the fear of change and adaptation? It has the word "cheese" in its title. The author needs to read that book and grow some balls to adapt. Adapt motha ***** adapt.
Anyway, most of my development is for my company's intranet so if they don't have JavaScript on, they can kiss my A$$. Sometimes you need to force the 25% morons to upgrade to compatible browsers ... gad damn hippies! - freakystyley, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0AJAX sucks for the same reason Flash sucks: wannabe designers simply don't know when it's most appropriate to use it.
- chr1snv, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0AJAX, it makes your teeth turn green!
AJAX, it smells like gasoline!
AJAX, it makes you vomit,
so buy some AJAX,
and vomit today!
(i really haven't even looked at the artical, but the title reminded me of the old comit, an AJAX knock off, song. xD - downtempo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0It looks like this post was booted from the main page. That seems to be happening a lot lately.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0"If you are working in a Web2.0 company that needs to provide evidence of their technical expertise in order to gain new clients. However, you must remember to keep your offering in beta and make sure that it in the same family as these examples:
* geotag-based apps via flash
* tag-based instant messaging via Ruby on Rails
* community podcasts via api mashups
"
Classic. - apotropaic, on 10/12/2007, -0/+011% using mobile browser?! Yea right! This artical no longer has any credibility since they are going to just throw out random number like that. This is stupid... no digg!
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0i mean, look at that page. and then look at gmail.
- hao2lian, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0"i'm not ajax fan either"
Them be fightin' words. - 955701, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Ajax does suck - it's a half baked attempt to emulate the behavior of a thick client with all of the vulnerabilities of sitting on a browser.
I can't wait for WEB 3.0 - when we come full circle and start developing client server applications again. - dhtmlkitchen, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0AJAX sucks.
It is not for "advanced" web developers. That just makes people want to use it more.
The best advice I got from a comp-sci professor: "Be smart, not clever."
AJAX is usually a clever way to do something that is already possible without AJAX.
Javascript is for client behavior. It is not for maintaining application state or creating content. It is the behavior.
AJAX anti-patterns I see on the web today.
* JSON - arbitrary data structures turned into HTML via JavaScript renderer functions - high maintenance, high overhead.
* url creation and management. URLs do not belong in the javascript. I've seen a lot of form submission where front-controller logic was pushed into the javascript, which was facilitated via XmlHttp. The developers on this are very intelligent, but maintenance and overhead are high.
Standard form submission and linking has many maintenance advantages (not just accessibility)
* maintain form action in the form's action attribute / link's href.
* url is not changed in javascript.
* debugging a response is crystal-clear. - RyanSmith345, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0AJAX has it's place on the web, and can make a site more usable. Just look at http://maps.google.com or http://www.kayak.com
Even though there is a lot of room of AJAX abuse, there is a lot of potential for increased usability. I think as time goes on, we will see more and more practical uses for AJAX (and probably many more inpractical uses). - hammerattack, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I remember when Java and Javascript first hit the web. Next thing you know, every web programmer was trying to use j/js to solve every problem. One day, my machine just drug to a crawl under the weight of overloaded form validation, special page effects, and stupid applets.
AJAX has its place. Digg is probably the most tasteful use of AJAX I've seen, but alot of people are going compeletely bonkers with it. So IMHO, AJAX is teh 5Ux0r -
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