What is Digg?Sponsored by Dragon Age: Origins
Join the Dragon Age: Origins development team on Facebook view!
facebook.com/DragonAgeOrigins - EA presents BioWare's new dark fantasy epic Dragon Age: Origins. '9/10' from Game Informer.
262 Comments
- Crimsoneer, on 10/11/2007, -3/+126If you want to be a programmer, sure you don't need maths. if you want to be a computer SCIENTIST, then sorry, you need maths.
- inactive, on 10/11/2007, -5/+128Want to be a good Computer Scientist? Forget Math.
Want to be a GREAT Computer Scientist . . . . . . ;) - has2k1, on 10/11/2007, -12/+117Yes you can be a good computer scientist with out math, but there is a limit to how far you can go. Plus the skill set needed for the elegance in "mathless" computer science are more so the same skill set that makes exceptionally good mathematicians.
- nyx210, on 10/11/2007, -9/+91If you can't handle the math, then don't even think about becoming a computer scientist.
- geminitojanus, on 10/11/2007, -6/+72No, you can't be a good computer scientist without math.
You can be a great programmer, an astounding software engineer, but Computer Science is the Study of Computing, which is inherently math. CS is just a fancy way of saying that you're an expert at optimization, which if you remember back to middle/high school is a specific kind of mathematical problem (specifically, finding the maxima and minima of functions; here the "functions" are represented by whatever you want to input, memory bandwidth, hard drive size, computing speed, etc). - ToadLeg, on 10/11/2007, -3/+64"An operating system is not supposed to terminate, nor does it yield a singular solution."
Yeah...an operating system yields a billion solutions simultaneously...through mathematics. - Dejas, on 10/11/2007, -2/+48Computer Science is a wide wide field. Some areas are math heavy, other areas are not. If you want to do complexity analysis, you need math. If you want to study design patterns, you do not. Think this is like debating whether a good artist needs red or not. Sometimes you do, sometimes you don't. It depends on what you want to do.
In some regards, the goal of the university is to lay down the broadest base possible so that as you mature and specialize you have the freedom to engage any of the sub fields you find interesting--so at the university level I think it would be unwise not to mandate math. What if by your senior year you discovered you were really interested in advanced algorithms and data structures? Well, by then its too late to run back and take all the math you need to excel in that area in industry or grad school. - sworoc, on 10/11/2007, -2/+48Exactly what I was thinking, don't tell the guys at Google that math and algorithms are pointless. The best of the best programmers work on another level, and that level is called Math :)
- lotsofcooki3s, on 10/11/2007, -3/+38haha... a great excuse for people that just can't make it through comp sci...
- zeptobyte, on 10/11/2007, -1/+34Well hey, the more future computer scientists with no math background, the more jobs for me!
- inactive, on 10/11/2007, -1/+32People are digging you down because you sound arrogant, but I say you're right. We embrace stupidity too much in this society, and math just isn't that hard if you try. This coming from someone who almost failed algebra 2 in high school(read didn't try) but got a 98% in calc ii(tried)
- jayselle, on 10/11/2007, -1/+24My university for a CS degree required Calc I, II, and III. It also required Physics I and II and Chemistry I and II. I will probably never use physics or chemistry but the education is more about learning to learn and solving multiple problems. Any accredit ted modern university should have these courses
I believe a good computer science program should touch on math, physics, chemistry, electrical engineering courses, etc. If you want to learn a specific skill set only like a couple people mentioned in the comments of the article then go to a vo-tech.
So even though I haven't used any complex physics in my professional career; I can't help but think that it has helped me in my overall problem solving capabilities. - manfromfuture, on 10/11/2007, -6/+28This is asinine. Its great to talk about all of these abstract ideas but the fact is: Computer science *is* math. And WTF are "expressional possibilities" ?!?!
- geminitojanus, on 10/11/2007, -1/+20IT Job != Computer Scientist.
A computer scientist will spend his day working on a mathematical proof that his algorithm for drawing polygons is optimal, or at least more optimal than someone else's. A programmer will spend his day implementing designs that are handed to him from someone else; "make a program that sorts this stuff for me." - Alucard90, on 10/11/2007, -0/+17Or you can be L. Ron Hubbard(founder of Scientology) and say that Calculus is pointless and useless
http://www.rr.cistron.nl/xenu/quotes.htm#calculus
It just boggles the mind that someone says Calculus has no uses.
But then again, this was the founder of Scientology and failed Calculus, so I'm honestly not surprised. - Lewie, on 10/11/2007, -1/+17Computer Information Systems. It's like CS lite. I think you deal less with programming and more with networks. Probably not too bad of an idea, since a lot of programming is being outsourced. You really can't outsource having someone set up a network (unless the whole company is moved).
- angusm, on 10/11/2007, -2/+18A long, long time ago, I remember reading an article about a study that suggested that math skills weren't a good determiner of programming skills. Instead, the authors of the article suggested, the best predictor of whether someone would be a good programmer was whether they were articulate in their own native language, suggesting that computer programming is more a verbal than a mathematical activity.
This made intuitive sense to me and it's certainly true that the best programmers I've known have usually also tended to be highly articulate. There are obviously sub-disciplines of computer science where math is essential, but I'm a little surprised to learn that we're still repeating the "Must know math to program computers" myth after all this time. - daniel2e, on 10/11/2007, -1/+15I'm a software engineer, and I find that math actually comes in handy quite often. Not so much calculus, but those that fall under the heading of "Discrete Math" (i.e. graph theory, probability theory, and particularly time complexity analysis) are often indispensible.
And frankly, I wouldn't want my colleagues not to know these things, as they really do make you a more responsible programmer. - KibibyteBrain, on 10/11/2007, -1/+15Calculus is the most important basic math course because it is the root of all numerical methods, including those we use without thinking much about it, like the average. A great number of programming jobs focus on areas centering on numerical analysis and modeling which use calculus as a basis. Its true that one can be a programmer and work on databases and applications without knowing about analysis, but the purpose of a college degree in anything is not just to show that the holder can do the general work area, but that he has a wide area of exploration of all schools of thought in the area. He is supposed to be an expert in the field, not just a participant. So I disagree in offering any sort of Bachelors of Science degree in Computing without such a background. The Bachelors of Arts was created for the purpose of a more limited course of study.
- RProgrammer, on 10/11/2007, -0/+13The underlying miscommunication (largely the author's fault), is:
Computer Science is NOT Computer Programming!
Programming is writing instructions to make a machine do what you want it to.
Computer Science is the scientific (and thus mathematical) study of the different ways of achieving that. - geminitojanus, on 10/11/2007, -0/+13That's the reason we're in desperate need of a degree called "Programming" or "Software Engineering", and we need to leave the term "Computer Science" to the mathematicians and scientists where it belongs. It's also why we need a degree called "Information Science" or "Informatics", to further remove the fact that Computer Science isn't anything but Math. [Informatics is the study of information, the way it's laid out, and is currently a subset of Computer Science.]
There's room in the world for both. Great Engineers don't build buildings, they give someone else the plans, and those unsung heroes make it happen. - capiCrimm, on 10/11/2007, -1/+13Did anyone here actually read the article? It wasn't saying no maths necessary, cut and paste everythingz!!! Weee. It was pointing out that math and programming aren't as closely tied as some people purport. Think about this for a second: "How many people use Haskell?".
Math is very useful to programming, but it's not the root of programming. It's just a part of it, and we need to look elsewhere for our core theories.(More towards logic, perhaps?) From what I read that was the intent. - jordanfrank, on 10/11/2007, -0/+11A brilliant professor once described the development of math and computer science as follows:
Computer science has been studied for thousands of years, and then in the late 19th, early 20th century it branched off into what we now call mathematics.
And it's true. What was called mathematics before the 20th century was pretty much dedicated to the study of how to compute things. Anyway, computer science is not programming, most of the top computer scientists do very little programming, and equating the two is just a demonstration of ignorance. as someone pointed out earlier, it's like equating electricians to electrical engineers.
Trying to separate mathematics from computer science is completely absurd, as all of computer science is completely grounded in mathematics. I doubt that this author is smarter than pretty much every other person studying computer science, and it seems he's just trying to make waves.
Of course it's just semantics and arguments about semantics are generally silly and boring, so I'll end here. - techmonkey4u, on 10/11/2007, -0/+11Computer Information Systems aka CS lite.
I got an associates in CIS before getting a bachelor's in CS and for me it was like "business with an emphasis on computer science." - inactive, on 10/11/2007, -3/+14Programming != CS
- whatthefu, on 10/11/2007, -1/+12Why would you want to be a computer scientist if you're no good at math in the first place? Isn't that just asking for it?
- JrGhoull, on 10/11/2007, -1/+11dude not everyone can do everything. people have limits. i wanna learn programming, but as much as i love math, i suck at it. i am glad to hear that it is possible to be a good programmer without nessecarily being good at math. i'm sure many people, such as myself, arnt so keen on math, but have lots of ideas that they would love to impliment. after reading some of the posts on digg, i am inspired to continue trying to learn programming in my free time, and eventually create all the ideas that i have.
- RProgrammer, on 10/11/2007, -0/+9No one argues that computer *science* is math, but the author is confusing Programming (ie, "kernel", "compiler", "logic circuit") with Computer Science.
- cotaskmemalloc, on 10/11/2007, -0/+9Sounds like more BS from an IT person who couldn't hack it in computer science. This is exactly why so much crappy software is being written - the profession is being trivialized instead of formalized.
I love this line:
"The primary questions of computer science are not of computational possibilities but of expressional possibilities. Computer science does not need a theory of computation; it needs a comprehensive theory of process expression."
Maybe so - but guess what buddy? That "theory of process expression" is going to be based on mathematics. So much for arguing CS isn't rooted in math. - cam18, on 10/11/2007, -0/+9I'm assuming Computer Information Systems..
- diespectra, on 10/11/2007, -0/+9I don't know. I thought differential equations was the easiest of the calculus sequence. I've talked to many people that thought calc II was the hardest section.
Personally I thought calc III was the hardest.
Not everyone has the same gifts. Cherish yours, honor others'. - qishi, on 10/11/2007, -0/+9I like the first comment on the article. "I know several markup languages...".
HAHA. I bet he has "I can tie my shoes with minimal assistance" on his resume. - adb44, on 10/11/2007, -0/+9I like the idea of forgetting math! First mathematical idea on the chopping block: Google's PageRank. Who needs good search, anyways?
- rune420, on 10/11/2007, -0/+8FTA: "This concept of 'process expression' is, he says, a common thread running through the various disciplines of computer science. "A logic circuit is an expression of a logical process; an architecture is an expression of a continuously acting process to interpret symbolically expressed processes; a program is a symbolic expression of a process; a programming language is an environment within which to create symbolic process expression; a compiler is an expression of a process that translates between symbolic process expressions in different languages; an operating system is an expression of a process that manages the interpretation of other process expressions; any application is an expression of the application process.""
Did anybody get this without reading at least 4 times? I'm so glad this guy didn't author any of my textbooks. - godofpumpkins, on 10/11/2007, -0/+8you're just using the common, high-school definition of math... if you take any higher math you'll see they're very closely related. And CS is also very closely related to linguistics. Math is not just numbers
- wedesoft, on 10/11/2007, -0/+8Computer science is about graphs, compilers, complexity, decidability, predicate logic and formal systems, hardware architecture, software design, operating systems, parallel processing, synchronisation, protocols. So computer science is a field in its own right. But I wouldn't go as far as saying that mathematical knowledge is not required (which this controversial article does). Take for example 3D visualisation. Without knowing linear algebra you don't get far here. And there are numerous other areas where mathematical skills will take you a long part of the way.
- Shadow503, on 10/11/2007, -2/+10You can be a great programmer in some respects. However, the Algorithm, which is another thing this article is calling unnecessary, is absolutely essential to any kind of computer programming. A programmer interfacing with a database or webserver would need little knowldege about math, but if he can't create algorithms, then he needs to get out of computer programming. Math itself is only required in several programming occupations (namely the videogame, graphics, and simulations fields).
- Amablue, on 10/11/2007, -0/+8Programming isn't necessarily computer science. You can be a programmer without being a computer scientist.
- umber970, on 10/11/2007, -1/+9Anyone that diggs this simply can't do math.
- Tippis, on 10/11/2007, -1/+9...for some reason, Abelson's old quote comes to mind:
"Computer science is a terrible name for this business. First of all, it is not a science. It might be engineering or it might be art -- we'll actually see that computer (so called) science has a lot in common with magic. [...] It is also not really much about computers... and it is not about computers in the same sense that physics is not really about particle accelerators and biology is not really about microscopes and petri dishes."
Or, put another way, just because programmers and CSers overlap heavily in the tools they use, they use those tools to rather different ends. - jerrylin, on 10/11/2007, -0/+7Unfortunately as a computer scientist I have to disagree.
A major part of computer science will always be math. I agree that many CS graduates can go into industry and never use their math again, however they will interact with underlaying pieces of the field that are all math based. Compilers, unfortunantly are extremely math based. There is a difference between building an interpreter and an intelligent compiler. There is math in understanding these different "processes" and their level of efficiency in certain situations, which "process" is better? How do you know you are optimized for space? How about for time?
How about basic logic? Sure most of it is boolean logic, but in a large system, the complexity can become difficult for someone with no math skill to keep up with.
The internet is so major now. How important is encryption, certificate signing, or simply basic hashing to your everyday computer scientist? These are all mathematically based concepts.
How are graphics, numbers, letters, and everything else in a computer processed? As numbers. How do you manipulate and make these numbers meaningful?
Its all math. If you forget your math, I truly doubt you can be a great computer scientist. Perhaps you can be a good script monkey as the article describes. - nukethewhales, on 10/11/2007, -0/+7Its ridiculous. If the guy wanted to argue that algorithms aren't math I would have an easier time buying that since I have always had a hard time connecting Discrete Math with Calculus. But to argue that you don't need algorithms in computer science?
I mean I guess if you want to be a code monkey, who memorizes whatever way he was taught to make a program, then yes you wouldn't need algorithms. But to create new software that is more effective than whatever is out there, you have to start with an algorithm. - rhinopig, on 10/11/2007, -1/+8since when is logic not part of math? Isn't that what mathematicians use to prove all the stuff they claim? Isn't it actually just boolean algebra?
- smackhero, on 10/11/2007, -1/+8binary logic _is_ math. the article claims that circuit designs aren't a series of mathematical operations, but they are exactly that.
- dynamitehacker, on 10/11/2007, -0/+7The title is misleading. What I got from reading the article is that the authors claim that math isn't enough to fully describe computer science, not that it's entirely unnecessary. They're saying that the notion that the algorithm is fundamental to computer science is wrong, and that the real foundation is this broader concept of 'process expression'. Whether or not they're right is certainly debatable, but to say that they're arguing that computer scientists can 'forget math' is just completely inaccurate.
- UCFMark, on 10/11/2007, -0/+6Regardless of whether math is essential to general programming, it is an integral part of Computer Science, which is very much a fundamental domain. All programs are based on algorithms of some sort. For example, the author claims that operating systems do not terminate or yield singular solutions; however, it is undeniable that the operating system is built on algorithms that perform a task or return some sort of output based on the input that the user supplies. A fundamental flaw of Mr. Fant's argument is that it has no real substance. He just employs semantics - what is a "process expression" but a series of operations (based on algorithms) - the "process" that transforms input to output?
The fact is, computer science is rooted in math. Do you need to know advanced mathematics to be an effective database programmer? Probably not. Do you need to know advanced mathematics to understand intuitively why some algorithms are more efficient than others and how to devise more efficient algorithms (or "process expressions," if you're so inclined)? Yes, definitely. This is a common thread that appears all the time on Digg and /. - Computer Science is different from Software Engineering! - controlguy, on 10/11/2007, -0/+6"we need to look elsewhere for our core theories"
Set theory and logic serve as the foundations for all mathematics, including computer science. To look elsewhere would require looking for a whole new system to express systems formally, but if you really look at set theory and logic, you see that they're as straight forward and obvious as it gets.
There is a common misperception that computer science doesn't require math. Computer science is a branch of mathematics! Sure, you can write programs for a computer without a solid understanding of the fundamentals, but that's because those with an understanding of the fundamentals wrote the algborithms used by the operating systems, compilers, processors, and so on that make your programming experience so easy and efficient.
Think you can write an efficient compression algorithm without an understanding of probability and information theory? Maybe if you're a damned genius, but even they'd swear by those tools. What about a encryption algorithm? What about a distributed algorithm for use with a database running on a computer cluster? What about a search engine like Google?
Calculus is needed for the study of probability that is used to analyze algorithms to determine their efficiency in the face of uncertain input. Discrete mathematics and logic are used to analyze an algorithms correctness. Recently, approaches in optimization and control theory have been used for the same purpose.
Those who claim computer science doesn't require mathematics don't actually do computer science. They write useful programs, sure, but they are computer programmers. It's like a mechanic telling a mechanical engineer that an understanding of thermodynamics isn't useful in engine design. The mechanic is skilled and does a useful job, no doubt, but they'd be completely wrong. - drozonivich, on 10/11/2007, -2/+7This article is complete garbage and it is the result of the misconception of what a Computer Science degree means.
People want to make the connection between the degree program and the profession and the degree than an individual holds. Yes it is possible to become a code monkey, excuse me a 'Software Developer' maybe even a 'Software Engineer' without a degree in Computer Science.
However to call one self a Computer Scientist, requires exceptional mathematical prowess and penchant for understanding the ways that solutions scale and the ability to communicate with other Computer Scientists your ideas, your proofs, and yes this communication is done in mathematics.
If I had it my way, I'd require student who enter into Computer Science to only understand theoretical Computer Science and make it a codegree program with Applied Mathematics or Pure Mathematics depending upon the student's interests. Those that wish to become code monkeys can get a degree in Software Engineering. And the bottom feeders can go get a degree in Computer Information Systems. - helikopter, on 10/11/2007, -1/+6exactly, man. the entire purpose of a higher education is to expand your horizons, blatantly embracing ignorance and refusing to take anything beyond introductory calculus in a field VERY much connected to math is just a waste of time and money.
- Cwo655321, on 10/11/2007, -0/+5and both of them are just as good at keeping you dateless.
-
Show 51 - 100 of 262 discussions
Browsing Digg on your phone just got easier with our enhancements to the 
© Digg Inc. 2009
— Content created and posted by Digg users is