What is Digg?Warning: The Content in this Article May be Inaccurate
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- upfrontfanatic, on 10/12/2007, -3/+22Yes. ASP and ASP.NET share little in common except for their name. While ASP resembles PHP (and everything that is ugly about it), ASP.NET is closer to writing actual applications.
While you may not always -want- to approach a problem that way, it is a very noteworthy difference. - triplah, on 10/12/2007, -0/+15How can you expect a comparison between RoR and php? One is a programming language the other a framework. A more realistic comparison would Ruby vs php OR rails vs tracks.
- digggdoug, on 10/12/2007, -14/+24This is old and terrible. It doesn't actually explain the differences at all. There is no mention of Ruby / Rails and only a tiny comment on ASP.NET.
- vdaelef, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10My god !
"ColdFusion is good, because you don't need to learn it since it has a graphical IDE."
NO NO NO ! ! ! - upfrontfanatic, on 10/12/2007, -4/+13Short summary of the article:
I love PHP and Open source. Anything else is just around for random reason.
While Perl can look like PHP, its not really that good.
I do not know the difference between ASP/ASP.NET so I'll lump them into the same category bashing them as bad -languages-, because they only run on Windows.
I don't like ColdFusion either because it ain't PHP, however as a -language- ColdFusion is good, because you don't need to learn it since it has a graphical IDE.
JSP ain't that bad since it is sort of like PHP and uses templates a little more.
This may sound like flamebait, but this is how I read the article. - sstocker, on 10/12/2007, -3/+12No, but the author missed quite a bit. First, the author put ASP and ASP.NET into the same category as though they are the same thing. ASP is dead as of 5 years ago. Any good programmer would realize that and either migrate to .NET or to another scripting language (PHP or Ruby). As digggdoug mentioned, he left out Ruby on Rails of his "guide" completely.
- Gregd, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10"Windows is a security risk, and should be avoided at all costs."
Why do people insist on propogating this FUD? With the release of Server 2003, Windows/IIS is no more a security risk than any other popular flavor of OS. Please, please, please do your homework and stop spreading these untruths.. - 83457, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10I just read the ColdFusion section, since that is what I have the most experience in the list. If that section is any indication of the quality of the article then the article is crap. IDE where you never have to see source code? They tried to do such a thing with Dreamweaver but it is all but a failure. I just went to a ColdFusion conference with nearly a thousand other ColdFusion developers and can say with certainty that they were all there to improve their programming skills, not learn some crappy graphical IDE. Most of them, myself included, work exclusively with CFEclipse or Homesite without a graphical IDE. No mention of ColdFusion being compiled to Java bytecode, being interoperable with Java, or any of its other features (reports, flash forms, web services, AMF, etc) not found in other popular languages without shelling out money or lots of time.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8There is nothing at all wrong with Coldfusion, I prefer it over PHP. As mentioned, PHP is/gets too messy and I learned Coldfusion a lot faster.
Knowing digg, kiddies will mod down just because PHP is free and Coldfusion is not.
And yes, CFEclipse ++. - crpietschmann, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8Damnit people! No digg. The author should have done more research, ASP and ASP.NET are NOT the same thing!
- nTensify, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8"ASP and ColdFusion?! Isn't that something you only learn if you're forced to?"
Or unless you *really* like Microsoft, and/or work for Microsoft. And I'm trying to say that without being a troll; I know quite a few people who just love the Microsoft platform so much that they'd rather have all Microsoft solutions than dilute their networks with other company's hardware/software. While to a number of us, that might not make any sense at all, but to others (and especially companies), it makes perfect sense. - Matt2k, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7> ASP is dead as of 5 years ago. Any good programmer would realize that and either migrate to .NET or to another scripting language (PHP or Ruby)
That's nonsense. The goal of the programming framework is to accomplish a task, and there's very few things that classic ASP can't do, with less complexity and faster deployment over ASP.NET
Yes, with ASP.NET, you have mostly full access to the framework, but you also have to deal with users creating application points in IIS, you have to consider whether you're running in medium/high/full trust, often you have to compile your applications before uploading, and finally does your web host even support .NET (and do they support it securely). Believe it or not, many web hosts do not support ASP.NET, or still offer it at a premium cost. If all you want to do is pull some records from a database and blast them to the user, use whatever gets the job done fastest.
I continue to be amazed how much time programmers spend comparing the size of their tools. - spraguep, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7I agree the article is crap, enough said.
ColdFusion MX 6.1/7 is built on J2EE and compiles down to JAVA bytecode. It's basically a JSP taglib at this point. It runs on JRun, JBoss, iPlant and Websphere J2EE application servers so you can use it on what ever platform you want.
You can code Java right inside of a .cfm script file if you want to, which means anything that the CF library doesn't have yet you can try and find a solution for in the Java world and plug it in.
I moved from pure J2EE development to ColdFusion and I would say my develpment time was cut in half on average. The language is stupid simple to learn and if you need a good MVC framework you can use Fusebox or Mach2.
The only thing that sucks about ColdFusion is the cost. - upfrontfanatic, on 10/12/2007, -4/+10I shun classical ASP like any sane person. That language has been dead for years. I shun it for the same reason I shun PHP. It promotes mix of code and markup and generally results in messy code. I know that is not as much wrong with the language as with the users, but almost all PHP code I have seen has been a total mess. And yes, I've written quite some PHP myself.
At home I run everything on ASP.NET 2.0. This is by choice, because I find it superior to stuff like PHP. Actually I run Windows Server 2003 (legally) at home for the sole reason of being able to host ASP.NET 2.0 pages.
Not everyone using Microsoft products are using it because they are forced to. Just to let you know. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6"Perhaps ColdFusion's biggest let-down is the price tag - you will certainly need to sit down before you see it."
Uh $1000-1500 isn't that much considering the caliber of projects you are probably working on to warrant the purchase. Its definately a good investment that sees a return if you're worth a *****, which it sounds like this guy is not. - ejustice, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5I agree too, the Coldfusion section of the article was complete crap. All CF developers that I know code by hand not with an IDE. In fact, I'm not even aware of an IDE that allows you to code CF without seeing the code. Its tag-based syntax makes it easy for beginners to pick up and learn and its scripting functionality is similar to other scripting languages out there. The biggest benefit of using Coldfusion is its rapid development time. Since Macromedia has been bought out by Adobe (another hint that the article is out of date), they have been working to integrate more Adobe-ish functionality into it such as PDF forms and dynamic Breeze presentations.
For those who claim CF is sloppy, check out the MVC frameworks that exist for CF such as Model-Glue. Components and modules also provide layers of encapsulation and object-oriented functionality. - shadytrees, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Or the "let's party like it's 1999" solution FastCGI.
- cazabam, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5erm, CGI is slow, hence mod_perl, which has been around for years.
- 83457, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Here's a good resourse for learning the basics:
http://livedocs.macromedia.com/coldfusion/7/
and I recommend the Model-Glue framework for MVC/OO development. The next version has Rails-like abilities by leveraging ORM and Spring frameworks:
http://www.model-glue.com/ - jason7655, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Sounds like the guy doesn't really know alot about the current ability of Coldfusion.
- negativeview, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5I used to be a Perl fan and anti-PHP for the same reason -- mixing code and HTML in the manner you see in most PHP tutorials is just ugly.
However, look into Smarty if you haven't already. I've been converted from Perl to PHP based on that alone (though if I can find a "Smarty for Perl" I'd likely switch back). Why more tutorials don't use Smarty I will never understand. - MioTheGreat, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6Inaccurate. Grouping ASP and ASP.NET in the same category is just wrong. This guy obviously has no idea of the fact that they're related in the same way I'm related to my great aunts second cousin's best friend's barber's neice.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -6/+11The main difference between all of them is this:
I'm not baiting when I say with all sincerity -- does anyone actually go forth _wanting_ to learn ASP or ColdFusion? I don't care for PHP as I prefer perl (there's just something about the way it used to mix code with presentation that I didn't like very much) and I don't have any interest in learning JSP as Perl does all I need and more (and I don't do this for a living anyway, so it's not like it holds any professional interest in learning another scripting language)... but ASP and ColdFusion?! Isn't that something you only learn if you're forced to? - flappysocks, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5No mention of the Mono implementation of ASP.NET either, with it's apache module.
- captainpete, on 10/12/2007, -6/+11Have the languages changed THAT much in the last six months that an overview of them could be considered outdatted?
- kwispel, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5ColdFusion Developer edition is actually free to download and to use (restricted to localhost + 1 IP). No costs whatsoever until you deploy. Frankly speaking, the license costs (1500 USD or smth like it) are usually low compared to the bill your customer will get for your development hours. If the equation is on the other side - you are really doing something seriously wrong :)
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4@negativeview
Yeah, but PHP is geared toward web stuff. I've never seen anything really done with it on the command line. I've never seen any system services written in it or any full (non-web) applications developed with it. Perl, on the other hand, can do plenty of web stuff... but not just web stuff.
So in my mind, I'd rather stick with what I already know since I could write system services, all sorts of utilities... just about anything I'd want with it... AND web stuff. Seems more versatile to me.
PHP seems to have a lot of handy little things about it that probably make life easier, but I just can't force myself to make that move. Besides, it's hard to fall out of love with CPAN (even though it has its problems). PEAR just can't compete. And having playeda round with the PHP/PEAR SQL DBI -- it kind of seems to suck compared to the DBI on the perl side... unless you only want to use MySQL (I do everything in PostgreSQL).
At this point, I think I would probably move to Ruby if I was going to start doing my code in another language. But I'm pretty convinced that I'll just stay with Perl. All of my current code is written in it and I'd rather spend my time refactoring and expanding what the code does than rewriting it in this year's flavor. - aparsons, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I have been developing in Coldfusion for years. Not only can I develop apps in half the time using coldfusion (versus Perl or PHP), but when some obscure problem comes along, I have support available. If I come across some obscure problem in PHP, I spend 30 - 40 minutes searching the web for similar problems, then am forced to post a question in a forum and Wait.
Yes, PHP is cheap, but how much time is spent developing, asking questions, and installing libraries (I still can't get PHP to distill to PDF). Also, the new version of Coldfusion supports flash remoting and flash-on-the-fly forms. As for cost - there is a cheap (FREE) alternative server out there to interpret CFML files (see: http://www.newatlanta.com/products/bluedragon/product_info/overview.cfm) - aleishman, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6Knowledge of "classic" ASP is only necessary for conversion to ASP.NET. There is NOTHING similar between ASP and ASP.NET except that a bad programmer can still write ASP.NET pages just like classic ASP (read: code and markup in the same file).
Mixing server-side code and HTML is what classic ASP is all about. Please don't confuse the broken down old ASP with the shiny new ASP.NET - quine, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Agreed, at least in the ColdFusion part - I (also) can attest that the author really hasn't done their homework. I mean really, if you're going to setup a bunch of scripting languages up against each other at least do some research on all of them first.
What, no mention of Coldfusion's inter-op with Flash, RIA and emerging technologies like Flex? And arguably - yes it costs, but not nearly as much as dropping down for something like say WebSphere, OC4J, or Weblogic. - Gregd, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I dugg the article because it was interesting. It was not well written.
- Moskie, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Perl is a "PHP alternative"?
Not saying one is better than the other... but that seems like a rough generalization. - vdaelef, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4No comments regarding other languages, but for the ColdFusion part, it's completely wrong ! You could run your code on free J2EE servers like BlueDragon
- flappysocks, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4@upfrontfanatic
You can always run your ASP.NET stuff on Mono/Apache/Linux. Saves yourself a licence fee, and all the windows aggravation like the silly Windows Advantage stuff and restrictions on number of simultaneous users etc. - Gregd, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Actually I've decided to undigg the article. After following the links to hudzilla.org (from where the article actually originated), these languages are listed as "competing languages". It's obvious through this author's writing style that there is a slant toward PHP. It's also obvious that there are glaring omissions and things that are no longer true, only to serve the writer's purpose....
- shotgunefx, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3or for the lazy, Apache::Registry
- cfsynergydotcom, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3ColdFusion Wizards? Yeah, I had beers with a few of them last week!
- proton, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Mature.... mature languages haha
- rip747, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3This article is pure crap. I thought that I would get a technically, wel written article about the performance benefits of each language. Instead I got a spaceshuttle view of each language that didn't go into any details.
BTW for anyone saying that CF is expensive, you should look at BD by NewAtlanta. It's half the price and the beauty about it is that it can run on both J2EE and .Net. The .Net version is extremly fast. If you want a free CFML compiler, then you can go with IgniteFusion. - chocolatey, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Or SpeedyCGI.
- happyfappy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3This article is inaccurate. ASP is not a scripting language. The scripting language used for ASP is VBScript.
- CompiledMonkey, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Why do people continue to talk about classic ASP as if it's current technology? Instead, focus on what's been modern from Microsoft for web development for the last 4 years.
- bkorte, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3"ColdFusion is good, because you don't need to learn it since it has a graphical IDE."
You're obviously more of an idiot than the tool who wrote this article.
People - ColdFusion has the same level of IDE that PHP does... - Gregd, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2It's just like anything else. With the popularity of PHP and the fact that it's basically free, it's extremely popular. Anything that's extremely popular will also have a more visible population of bad examples only because it's bigger.
- ThinkFr33ly, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2This is nothing more than a fluff piece with very little actual information.
The mere fact that the author lumps ASP and ASP.NET together shows he knows next to nothing about it as they couldn't be more different. - tdave365, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2PHP has been around longer -- and it's still "current technology", no?
- konradk, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Yeah, I have read your post after I submitted my comments, and others' posts too. This is the first time I got interested in it. Didn't know too much about CF before, and this is not much either but enough to get me interested in it. :) Thanks.
- konradk, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Oh, ASP is dead allright, just wait a few years.. It's a dead end. Although sites are using it, new sites are rarely made using ASP. That will have it's mark on it. A language without a huge and active community is a dead language imho. But of course there will always be someone using it. We might be differing over the numbers only I guess.
- sumrandommember, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Problem with Mono though (maybe it's been fixed?) is that there's no page caching, so your first conenction to the server can take a while.
- jeffgtr, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I have to chime in. ColdFusion graphical ide? wizards? No mention that Asp and Asp.net are totally different animals. No digg on this article. AND no mention of Ruby. Put this article on the "namby pamby" pile.
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