What is Digg?139 Comments
- Recode, on 10/12/2007, -11/+33Perl will never die.
- eczarny, on 10/12/2007, -4/+19I've only recently started writing lines upon lines of Perl code, and I can honestly agree with Recode. Perl won't die. Far too many lines of Perl code have been written for it to do, and honestly... It is tried-and-true. Besides, the author of this article makes some valid points. Perl isn't a dying language, hundreds of thousands still use it. It just isn't getting the same amount of attention of the other languages in it's family (that of interpreted programming languages, you know what I mean).
Perl6 may very well change it... But, I feel it will go the same way as PHP 5. Not many will be willing to jump right into it, it may take several years until it replaces it predecessor. - Dracker, on 10/12/2007, -2/+13Case in point: Perl is the one scripting language I learned for my job. When I get a higher position, perl is what those below me will be learning.
It may go away in time, but that time is far, far away. - eczarny, on 10/12/2007, -4/+14Your code is only as readable as you make it. No matter what the language.
- projecktzero, on 10/12/2007, -4/+12Unfortunately Perl makes it all too easy to write unreadable code.
- right75, on 10/12/2007, -3/+11I agree. It's a great tool for all sorts of different jobs. Certainly easier to use for quick jobs than just about every other languages I've used.
- eczarny, on 10/12/2007, -3/+10Perl isn't suited for large projects? What do you think the language of choice is for writing Bioinformatics software? Perl. And believe me, it takes a lot of code to handle genetic information.
Have you looked at Movable Type? I have never seen such beautifully written / manageable code in my life. And, correct me if I am wrong, wouldn't you consider MT a large project? - Coolhaus, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9Like Zombo.com, you can do anything in perl.
Next you're going to tell me that shell scripting is dying. - eczarny, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6That sounds like a huge waste of time. I can understand using Ruby for new development, be rewriting previous Perl code into Ruby? Most rewrites fail to see the light of day. Bad decision.
- micro506, on 10/12/2007, -4/+10HERETIC
- eleqtriq, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7I use Perl on a daily basis simply because it's the best tool for most jobs.
The reason it's the best tool is because of CPAN. So many modules, ready to use, to do whatever you can imagine. I know a lot of the newer languages are making headway to catch up, and that's good. Variety and choice is best. But I'll meet them when they get here. - esquilax, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6"How many languages exist where you can open up a text editor, and begin writing instantly?"
uh, *every* language? :) - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -7/+12Faith? Perl isn't a religion. It's a programing language. Faith is for fanboys and their fanboy johnny-come-lately languages.
Perl isn't being shoved down anyone's neck like these fanboy languages because there aren't a bunch of shiny new books on the end cap of your local mega bookstore to sell.
The rest of us have work to do and don't feel the need to evangelize, - Mooseknuckle, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6In reply to: push(@args,$_) if ($_ ne "-all") foreach(@ARGV);
I'd just write it as
@args = grep $_ ne '-all' => @ARGV - brundlefly76, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6Oh I agree, its amazing how many existing languages continue to fail to take a clue from CPAN. I would say CPAN has saved me more time in bringing projects to completion then any other language feature of any language I have ever used.
Yes most languages have third-party libraries but none of them works out all of the multiple critical details to expediting their discovery and usage like CPAN. - Schpariel, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6Perl won't die, it's popularity will just drop. People new to programming would go for Python or Ruby.
I'm not trying to promote Python here, but seriously - as far as maintainability, performace and (eventually) popularity goes - python gets the top marks.
For those who want to argue with me about performace: Python has an external JIT compiler/specializer module (psyco). Ruby's rubyjit is still unstable, and perl has nothing similar at all.
Perl just doesn't attract programmers anymore. - brundlefly76, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Oh and Ruby has performance that makes Python look fast.
- brundlefly76, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Ruby does not have CPAN, it has gems, which doesnt even come close, and wont for a long time.
- nofxjunkee, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7When you get your ass off Digg and go write some code for it.
- filecabinet, on 10/12/2007, -6/+10I'm actually really interested in Perl 6. I would like to see Perl 5 die though.
- evilTak, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4"The most advanced language, the most high-tech dynamic VM, the most flexible language and the most pre-existing modules..."
What is this comment about lisp, mono, lisp, and C doing in the middle of a perl article? ;-) - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7perl's syntax is like voodoo magic.
thats the reason languages which enforce clear coding methods like python and ruby are gaining favour
anyone who complains about pythons use of whitespace hasn't written more then hello world in it. - mamluk, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6It is really depressing to see the number of comments that refer to perl being an obtuse langauge (write once read never). I think this unfortunate distortion is a product of a few things:
1. perl hackers themselves delight in the arcane aspects of perl and associate complicated strings of punctuation with programming skill. This is a major turn-off for anyone new to programming or for corporations.
2. perl's strengths at manipulating data make it a good choice for writing one-off scripts to handle a specific problem- these might be truly 'write once' scripts but they are basically the equivalent of mucking around with the shell in *nix- of course these provide good evidence for people looking to justify their claim that perl is confusing.
3. most people who repeat that perl is obtuse have never used it; they have been exposed to the statements written by people who have observed the behaviour in point 1 and justified by examples from point 2.
These newer languages are getting a lot of hype but that doesn't mean that they are replacing perl. perl has a huge user base and once perl 6 is released, the hype will all be focused back on perl. I would prefer that they take their time polishing parrot and perl6 before releasing as the amount of attention that will be focused on perl will be huge.
Perl hasn't had many exciting new features added in recent years (discounting the joys of CPAN) but it already didn't lack for many features (short of the ugliness of its OO).
In the meantime, I suggest learning at least two of these newer scripting languages (e.g. perl, python, ruby), not to cover your bases, but as a way of learning more about programming in general. Remember, the perl mantra of "There is More Than One Way to Do It" doesn't just apply to perl but to program solving in general. - GalacticCmdr, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7Perl Dying? It is just that other languages are getting more attention. The growth of these OO-based, script-like languages (Perl, Python, Ruby, etc.) is fantastic; however, not all of them will make it to the finish line. Instead, I expect to see 1-2 of them finally capture enough of the see-sawing mindset to take the crown.
By then the next languages ready to replace them should be coming online in new small communities. The cycle will begin again. - b7j0c, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4when have colleges ever taught multiple semesters in C? even since the 80s they have been favoring 'teaching friendly" languages like pascal (which for a time had a monopoly presence in CS education) and now java. C isn't going anywhere. think of all of the crucial codebases you use every day that are based on C (or C++) - your OS, your browser, your servers...these codebases aren't "dying". you probably spend 95% of your computing time using apps written in C/C++.
- b7j0c, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5agree - CPAN has no peer. even if another tool were to match the simplicity of the CPAN.pm automation, i don't see how the massive codebase in CPAN (which is updated very regularly) can ever be matched.
- bluethundr, on 10/12/2007, -6/+9Perl is "the new bsd"! Just kidding, I love Perl! But my friend keeps bugging me to STOP doing/and learning Perl and move to Ruby. "But Ruby is OO, but Ruby doesn't use 'my', and Ruby is this and Ruby is that". SHUT THE ***** UP! I STILL LOVE Perl!!!
- lasermike026, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5What Perl has over other scripting language is that it is feature rich. Very rarely do I ask myself, "can Perl do that?" There is usually a module out there that can do what I need it to do. That being said, php, ruby, and python are cool. They are doing certain things better or are easier to learn or whatever. Sure Perl's learn curve is steep but once you get with it you wonder how you got along without it.
The networked world is waiting and wondering, "Where is Perl6? Does no Perl6 today mean Perl is dieing?" Yes, the release of Perl6 has been delayed for a number of reasons. Not only are they making changes and additions to the Perl language, thank you Damian Conway, but they are trying do things a different way, thank you Parrot, Pugs, and other software here and yet to come, and while maintaining compatibility with Cpan Perl modules. Not an easy trick.
I have a very hard time demanding that “It”, Perl6, get done when I'm not doing any of the work. It has been a long time. To outsiders not having regular releases make people fell that Perl is a stale project. That is simply not the case. Perl5 has regular releases. Also, Perl's technical strengths of extendability by modules have made the need to get to Perl6 less urgent.
The main reason to make Perl6 happen is more political than technical. Perl6 needs to get done to show the rest of the network world that the people engineering Perl6 can complete this project. Also keep in mind that when you think Perl6 you must remember that Perl6 is tied to the release of Parrot.
I use Perl and this is one coders perspective. I'm sure someone else has a more accurate view of things. - nofxjunkee, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5lethalpotato: even in python you can write unreadable code. if someone writes everything in one big function it quickly becomes difficult to see where things start and end. (by long i mean > 2 or 3 pages)
eczarny's right, you can write crap in any language, and you can write good code in almost any language. (except ***** of course :) - vikingcoder, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5This article screams offended fanboy, and I am a perl coder.
... until NetCraft confirms that perl is dead, I don't believe it. :) - nofxjunkee, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3blamar: Python is Perl influenced? I don't see it, maybe slightly. the last 1/2 of your comment lost me anyway. Ruby, yes very Perl influenced (in a good way).
eczarny: you can do that with many languages. python, c, perl, ruby, there's 4 in the 1min i have to edit! ;-)
Ruby is missing a few essential things that Perl, Python and others have (unicode support in strings!) but I can easily see Ruby becoming more popular than Perl in the very long run. It's clean syntax and powerful standard library are a pleasure.
That may seem pretty crass, but I think the longer Perl devs take to get v6 out the more Ruby and Python will grab up out of new batches of coders. Heck, even some old grisled Perl veterans may make the switch. I know some who have gone to Python, so it wouldn't be the first time.
Perl's great, but it's no silver bullet. It can be beat. - trypnotic, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4I don't think Perl is dying any more than duct tape is dying. It's the oldest (and largest) in a category of dynamic languages, and the category as a whole is showing incredible signs of life. Today at OSCON Tim O'Reilly will present part 2 of his market trend analysis, where he will break down the trends based on book sales by programming language. ( Part 1 - the overall trend - is here: http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2006/07/state_of_the_computer_book_mar_1.html ). Later today the analysis should hit his blog. It is always interesting to see.
My prediction: Ruby, Python up (Ruby WAY up). Perl, PHP flat. C, Java, .NET down. - b7j0c, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3c will never go away, not at least for the next fifty years. java...it may flatline, but there is so much java code out there in corporate america that it will likewise require a lifetime of maintainence.
- Zatko, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4My company just approved replacing all Perl programming with Ruby.. that's not just new development only, they want all existing Perl applications eventually replaced with Ruby.
- klang, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3"Perl will never die."
Nothing is more permanent than a temporary solusion.
Many problems are solved with a fast perl script. Perl is present on any unix machine (macs included) it's part of your command vocabulary. It's easy to extend and somebody has always solved a problem before, in perl.
A lot of key data collection systems are ticking away, year after year, with a basis in some perl-script. It's too expensive to replace something that works. - vonnie, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Pray tell, give me a good definition of a 'scripting language'.
- eczarny, on 10/12/2007, -4/+7I am convinced Perl will find itself alongside C in some respect. Especially in the area of longevity and amount of use.
I am fascinated by programming languages, and in fact, I want to design my own. However, I can't help but look back on Perl for inspiration. You can do so much with Perl so quickly... How many languages exist where you can open up a text editor, and begin writing instantly? - DavidDigg, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Perl is, I understand, a classic write-only language. In fact it may be the language which coined the term. The installed base of perl programs is huge, effectively preventing a meaningful cleanup at the syntax level. So Perl code won't get any cleaner. On the other hand, the benefits of an easily readable langauge (Python,Ruby) are starting to outweight the advantages of wizard-like power that Perl confers. To be sure, the enforced sanity of Python and ruby becomes most useful in pressurized environments, but it is also a useful check at the management level - if you're managing someone writing in Python, there is a very good chance that you'll be able to skim their code at the end of the day and pass the torch when necessary. With Perl, you have to roll the dice. (It has been established elsewhere that maintenance, testing, and debugging is far more costly than initially writing software.)
- diecastbeatdown, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2i've attempted to write and come out with a few programs in just about every languages i could get my hands on. C was not that difficult, the syntax was easy enough to understand and with proper indention as in any language you can sift through it easily. the thing about any language is knowing what you want to do and how to implement it. memorizing all of the system calls, the thousands of operands and knowing that they are completely different in every language is a true pain. stick with what you know, and if you don't know it then pick one and give it a go for a few years before deciding if you want to keep using it. know it's limitations before getting involved and decide what you want to accomplish with it.
perl, python, ruby, php, c, asm, whatever!
personally i'm dedicating more time to python than anything else as of late. perl has seen it's glory days, though it like every other language is not going anywhere anytime soon. - ditoa, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Ruby is still too young to be a serious consideration for anything more than prototypes. Python would be my choice over Perl but not Ruby, aside from its performance problems it is just too young.
- diecastbeatdown, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@ditoa
this is how you run php without a webserver:
#>chmod +x script.php
#>./script.php - klang, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2The stable release is 5.8.8. The development release is 5.9.3.
perl6 is still in the future, but will kill perl5 when it comes. - regeya, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3I remember reading a column years ago which went along these lines:
Microsoft Office will never take over because WordPerfect and Lotus 1-2-3 are too entrenched in business.
Never say never. Another important lesson is that the better man doesn't always win. - caseinpoint, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4I use perl everyday for converting our old data reporting systems into a format that can be imported into a database. I think that Perl is one of the best forms of "glue" to make disparate systems work together.
As a "Practical Extraction and Report Language" it does a great job when it comes to doing alot of text dirty work. - Eronysis, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I had always been told the TLA was "Perfectly Eclectic Rubbish Library". Not that I agree per se, but I do find it an entertaining though.
- pfister_, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Perl's syntax is obtuse as *hell*. For instance, I used it professionally for 5 years, and I never once developed a consistent mental model of what variable prefixes mean. Do they specify the type of the identifier that follows? Sometimes. Not when indexing into a list. Are they operators that bind less closely than the indexing operator? Sometimes, seemingly. I've never gotten a straight, consistent answer.
Of course, my lack of understanding could also be explained via the "idiot" argument, and I can't prove to you that I'm not one, but I can tell you that I've been programming for 15 years, I'm comfortable with pointer-heavy C, I know my *****, and I trust my own judgment when I think something is hard to understand.
Perl got popular because it filled an empty niche first. But now that there's actual competition out there, from Python, Ruby, and probably a dozen up-and-comers, it's going to have to compete on its own merits. Perl 5 is a clear loser, for new code. We'll see about 6. - Schpariel, on 10/12/2007, -5/+7Perl isn't the scripting language of choice anymore:
* Newcomers prefer Python or Ruby (Easier to learn/read, familiar)
* Perl doesn't have a decent OOP implementation (very spiky, hackish)
* Python (with psyco) is better than perl if you just want performance/speed
* Another point is that there aren't many "legendary" programs coded in Perl (A lot of bittorrent clients are written in Python (counting the original one), Zope, some great games like Civilization IV/EVE online, Severance)
Python and Ruby aren't just "scripting langauges" they can be effectively used for large projects (like the ones I mentioned above).
Perl isn't suited for large projects. - Haplo, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4"obviously you don't know python, which forces you to write readable code."
You're mistaken. A programmer *can't* be forced to write readable. Significant whitespace doesn't mean that one has suddenly to write readable code. - tatnall, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2"Jesus christ what is the big deal about a $variable, @array, %hash, or a &function. How is that so difficult to understand?"
That's a GROSS simplification.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a perl programmer, which means I'm in the language a minimum of 7 hours a day...on the web too GASP!
Simply jump to scalar context versus list context and a whole can of worms and extra things to remember opened up with EACH of those syntactic elements.
$#foo, $#$bar, $foo{'bar'}, $foo[0] ... all start with $ ... err
Perhaps throw in some references while were at it too? Or the insane number of ways the -> operator is used? Or how any of those syntactic elements can represent an object?
Scoping a small part of the language doesn't suddenly make the language easy. Once you get the big picture of perl it is complicated.
It isn't easy, then again what language is? The 11 billion php methods? - lethalpotato, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4i agree, python is quite good.
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