What is Digg?76 Comments
- diggapleaze, on 10/12/2007, -3/+33This is yet another historical stepping stone in the advancement of open-source software, right along with the introduction of the Linux kernel, the formation of Red Hat, and the open sourcing of Netscape. Don't underestimate the massive influence of Java in the software world--now that it's going to be open, it's existence will be *guaranteed* to be around AND relevant 10 and 20 years from now, unlike the Microsoft-endorsed language du jour.
- 3monkeys, on 10/12/2007, -0/+26Early in 2004 IBM challenged Sun to co-develop an open-source implementation of Java. Sun did not immediately warm to the idea. Though IBM has its own implementation of Java and could easily have open-sourced it, IBM believed that any open source version of Java should have Sun involved.
At the same time Eric Raymond, president of the Open Source Initiative and one of open source's fathers, backed IBM and called on Sun to contribute Java to the open source community. In Raymond's opinion, the "'Sun Community Source License' promoted proprietary lock-in. He also contended that most open-source developers simply would not want any part of that.
Through continued support from the Java community, Sun is apparently finally ready to release Java under the GPLv2 license. - diggapleaze, on 10/12/2007, -3/+23fine, digg me down, but I really believe what I said. All of a sudden Java is relevant to the free software community. First Adobe's work with Mozilla, now Sun, I think this is a really great thing.
- dgh1973, on 10/12/2007, -1/+21Exactly, so incomplete forks and reproductions like blackdown won't be needed anymore.
Besides, distro forking gave us Ubuntu... so what's your point? - ePlus, on 10/12/2007, -0/+16Good news!
- diggapleaze, on 10/12/2007, -0/+14I understand your concern, but no, you don't have to worry about that. GPL'ing a language doesn't mean that software written in that language have to be GPL as well.
Many closed source apps are written in Perl, a GPL'd language. If anything, business should *love* the non-restrictive access to the Java source code. - Wyzard, on 10/12/2007, -3/+17@netdroid9:
"Doesn't it mean that anything you compile with Sun Java is automatically GPLed, though?"
No. - NerveBand, on 10/12/2007, -0/+13Thats crazy! Right on Sun!
- raid517, on 10/12/2007, -0/+12Well there are a lot of people in the world of OSS reading this right now, who literally just fell off their seats...
- HalfNakedPappy, on 10/12/2007, -2/+14Dead? Are you Borat, because you sound like an idiot.
- dgh1973, on 10/12/2007, -0/+12No, it's just the interpreter. Like diggapleaze said above, there are plenty of commercial products using GPL'ed interpreters.
If you write a perl or python script you can license it as you please, even though the underlying interpreter is open.
If you were to modify the interpreter THEN those modifications would need to be made available via source and GPL'ed also. - int19h, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10@MeltedUFO
With Ubuntu, you don't have to say Debian GNU/Linux nor look at a pink swirly logo, while at the same time being able to leech of the coolness of Debian. In addition, things usually just work. Coolness + comfort, who can resist? - diggapleaze, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9And if I remember correctly, Netscape was dying a slow death as well.
- stoanhart, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10"why cant I use the GPL'ed version of QT to develop commercial solutions for which I dont want to disclose the source?"
Because there is a difference between a language and a widget set/development library. With a compiler (like the java bytecode compiler), your program does not contain any of the code from the compiler. Your program is the output of the compiler. Thus, it is not a derivative work, and does not need to follow any of the compilers' license restrictions.
With QT, however, when you use a button, or scrollbar, or drop-down list, or some of it's cross-platform network functions, or whatever, that code is being compiled into your program. Since your code now contains some of the GPL'd code, you must now also release your program's source code. - malkir, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9This will be a fun test of open-sources quality control.
Lets see how many bugs/inefficiencies os programmers find in the first couple weeks of it going open source. - cbreaker, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9Ahh, an OSS naysayer in our midst. There's always some group of people that will insist that as soon as something goes open source, it will be forked in 50 different ways. It really just doesn't happen in practice. At first, we might see a couple spin-offs, and who knows - maybe one of them will get more popular then the "official" release from Sun, but as a general rule people prefer contributing code changes rather then fork the entire project. It's a lot of work maintaining a source repository and managing updates - who needs the hassle?
The only reason software is forked is when the company/group/person maintaining the code is too slow to release software or will not accept changes from outside. This could happen with Java, but I don't see it forking in ten different directions. - malkir, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7The GPL does not work the way you think it does.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8I never understood these kinds of statements before. Why do you think its dead? Just because you don't use it? Or is it because you think that developing PC applications in Java is not as popular as other language, therefore it must be dead? Or is it because you're just stating a comment without having any actual information?
I'm amazed to hear these baseless comments, especially when I get 20-30 new java job postings in my email just in my city. - dgh1973, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7I agree with Linus' take on the GPLv3 though, software licenses shouldn't really apply to components they have nothing to do with (aka hardware not created by the programmer). This is one of those grey areas of the GPLv3 and while good for fighting things like DRM, opens other cans of worms that the kernel people didn't want to (or felt they shouldn't) get involved in.
Besides, thanks to screw-ups like Sony BMG DRM will do itself in soon enough. - cbreaker, on 10/12/2007, -3/+9I guess you've never used the Internet before.
Not to mention *any* IBM software. - int19h, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7Depends on where in the world you are, I guess.
- int19h, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6This is huge. The competition for the "hearts of minds" of the developers in the world suddenly hardened a lot. Who will win them over to their platform? (And increase the value of their company)
Microsoft/Novell/.NET/Mono, IBM/Sun/Java or Adobe/Mozilla/Google/Flash/Ajax?
The future for Java suddenly seemed all the brighter. - schestowitz, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7Red Hat openly complained about Java's restrictive licensing terms back in May. I am glad to see that not only have Sun M opened. They also sidle with with openness at a high level of capacity. Now, if only they had chosen GPLv3 they would have quieted down that storm (in a teacup) which Linux kernel hackers started. I'm more FSF-inclined in this debate...
drm is teh s---. Hurts the customers, benefits the oligopoly. - mipadi, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Not only open source, but under a FREE license, too. That's even better news!
- wyrdness, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5This is still unconfirmed. Sun have not yet made an official announcement (though they promised one last week and didn't deliver)
- nukem996, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5I guess this is Sun's way of getting someone else to port their Java plugin to 64bit.
- ggoyal, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5That's what I have been trying to understand. When all the java packages including swing get GPL'ed, it would be the same situation as QT, isnt it? I am not talking about the java compiler, but the Java Virtual Machine & all the jars included in the JDK / JRE from which we import packages, including java.lang
- geronimo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Wow. This is amazingly awesome news. I can see hooks into the JVM that allow you to debug / diagnose problems better. Performance boosts. I see all kinds of possibilities. No more guessing about memory bloat, the new open source tools will blow everything before them away.
- jsusanka, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4this is great news - I am happy for sun - way to go!!
- burke, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Wh-wh-wh-wh-whaaaaaaaaaAAAAAA???
Awesome! This is incredibly good news! - seuaniu, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4@ggoyal:
Usually, OSS libraries are licensed under the lgpl or bsd licenses, since the authors don't want you to be restricted in how you use them. That's how the GTK people, for instance, license their graphical libraries. What that means in a nutshell is that you can write code based on GTK and use any license you like (proprietary, etc).
QT is a special case in that its dual-licensed. If you want to write an open-source app, its free to use. If you want to write a closed-source proprietary app, you gotta fork out to trolltech for a license fee.
This all stemmed from people getting up in arms about KDE being "not totally free" years ago when QT was a proprietary set of libraries. Because of that, Trolltech decided to dual-license it to protect free software and their business model (software licenses) at the same time. - mercurysquad, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5I like your enthusiasm
- ggoyal, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3My concerns have been addressed as the license used has a specific exception for the class libraries:
http://www.sun.com/software/opensource/java/faq.jsp
(Specifically the licensing section)
Excerpt:
Q:
What is the Classpath exception?
A:
The Classpath exception was developed by the Free Software Foundation's GNU/Classpath Project (see http://www.gnu.org/software/classpath/license.html). It allows you to link an application available under any license to a library that is part of software licensed under GPL v2, without that application being subject to the GPL's requirement to be itself offered to the public under the GPL. - sproket, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4
DonCornelius
".NET has gained a lot of popularity in the past year or so. It appears to compete well with J2EE, from a developer's point of view. Also, .NET is not just one language, as Java is. You can code .NET in C#, Visual Basic, and C++. And lets not forget how popular Windows still is."
Wrong. There are more languages available on Java than .NET. (http://www.robert-tolksdorf.de/vmlanguages.html)
And actually the language which has gained the most in the last 5-6 years (since .net was excremented out my M$ is actually PHP).
http://www.tiobe.com/tpci.htm - int19h, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3The announcement from Sun (not ready just yet):
http://www.sun.com/2006-1113/feature/index.jsp - DonCornelius, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6.NET has gained a lot of popularity in the past year or so. It appears to compete well with J2EE, from a developer's point of view. Also, .NET is not just one language, as Java is. You can code .NET in C#, Visual Basic, and C++. And lets not forget how popular Windows still is.
I'm thinking a GPL licensed J2EE might help compete better against .NET by making it easier for other GPL languages to hook into the J2EE environment (Perl, Ruby, Python, etc.) The Parrot engine might even find a way to hook into a J2EE enviornment. This might end up making the most difference to developers. Also, for sysadmin types, I think J2EE implementations (especially more secure ones) on the server may be simpler to conceive and implement than .NET implementations.
Feel free to let me know if I'm off my rocker. - pgouy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I'm actually happy for all java developers out there. But great news nonetheless.
- thushan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Its a last ditch effort to keep their investment alive for the next 10-20 years...
If .NET didnt come around I doubt this happy-happy-joy-joy momentous event would have occurred.
But good things will come with this:-) I just hope we wont have a many-forks redist issue.. - raindog469, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Eweek has since taken down the story, too (but duggmirror still has it and other sites are reporting the same thing.)
Apparently it'll be a dual license like MySQL. Awesome news, if true. - JacNet, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I've been using java for about 8 months now, im going to start using Solaris soon. Sun are the best :)
- antdude, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Hmm, the link doesn't seem to work anymore.
http://duggmirror.com/programming/Sun_to_Open_Source_Java_Under_GPL_v2/ - anphanax, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3"(since .net was excremented out my M$ is actually PHP)."
I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say. Is english your first language? Microsoft is actually PHP? what? Oh, and your vmlanguages.html link is bad.
I think he was referring to the fact that for the most part, the VM was designed specifically for Java, and that's really the only popular language for that VM. Where as the .NET CLR has two: C# and Visual Basic .NET.
I am a bit confused as to how VB is beating C# usage on that TCPI website. I guess people like typing more to do the same thing...
EDIT: Should have been a reply to sproket. - mipadi, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1If by "businesses", you mean to exclude companies like IBM, HP, Apple, Sony, and Sun, then yes, you're right, big businesses DON'T use open source software.
- mfearby, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2I agree with your sentiment but, from my perspective as a relatively-new Java developer, I'd like to see some of the rougher edges smoothed out, particularly integration with the OS.
For example, it would be nice if a JAR file could be double-clicked by the user or a shortcut created to that JAR file without having to set the command-line arguments like classpaths, etc.
Sun's developer documentation could do with some basic examples, too, much like MSDN, and an offline search. If the whole Java deal, from development to deployment could be polished up just a bit, then Java would be a very attractive alternative. - geronimo, on 10/12/2007, -3/+4@insomniac8400
I think it's ironic that you used digg to write that tripe, keeping in mind digg uses the open source PHP. And let me tell you, I'm sure Keven et al are richer than your angry old anti-OSS ass will ever be. Then there's google, completely open source based.
This is why you are poor. - kyrre, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2@mfearby:
You can in fact have a JAR clickable. I first saw this in OS X, but Windows will also support this. I am pretty sure GNU/Linux also support this, but I lost interest in Java a few years ago*. You need to define a manifest than tell the JVM where in the JAR it can expect to find you main method. You can read more about that here:
http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.3/docs/guide/jar/jar.html#Main%20Attributes
I am sure you can find a more simple tutorial somewhere.
*)I will once again be interested in Java in March of 2007. - mfearby, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Strange... PHP is the closest thing to excrement you're likely to find on the internet (even in the era goatse.cx). Even Visual Basic is a gold-coated-truffle compared to PHP, which is a dog's breakfast of a programming language.
- corporate70, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1There is a podcast where the guys at Sun answer the questions surounding the opening of Java.
http://digg.com/programming/Questions_about_Open_Source_Java_This_Podcast_may_have_the_answers - mipadi, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Don't forget that Apple was dying a slow death, too.
- zombo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Shouldn't the title of this article be "Sun throws Java to the dogs".
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