What is Digg?Sponsored by openforum.com
Social Media: What's Next? view!
openforum.com - Mashable's Adam Ostrow offers pointers for success in tomorrow's social media...
56 Comments
- aussiehuw, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3/me agrees with Plasma
Real computer science is mathematics. "Computer Science" is just software engineering done at a university.
And "Software Engineering" is a bogus name for programming, invented by people who like to feel important but are not. - kidlinux, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2For anyone who wants to be a programmer - save your time, money, and sanity, and go to college (as opposed to university - there's a difference in Canada, anyway..) or just get some sort of programming certification. Or just start programming and build a portfolio. Experience counts more than anything.
You do NOT go to university to learn to program. I'm telling you right now; I see students in their last year of a Comp. Sci. or Soft. Eng. degree who are horrible programmers. Proper programming takes years of experience, which in turn will train you to think in a specific way, and *that* will make you a good programmer.
You know why Microsoft's products are generally *****? Because they hire students right out of university, most of whom couldn't code to save their lives and who don't have the necessary mindset to create a decent system of any kind. Google on the other hand generally hires people who have done post-graduate work. It's these people with scientific minds who have the proper mindset to create and develop amazing systems.
Programming is less than a drop in the bucket that is Computer Science (or Soft. Eng.)
And if you really want to know the difference between CS and SE, it's this: Computer Science is about the solution (not the answer, there' s a difference.) Software Engineering is about the implementation.
And remember - Computer Science is more math than anything else. I may have never taken computer science if I had known how much damn math is involved. Computer Science is really a discipline of mathematics. - swordphish, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2What if you're an engineer who builds in order to learn to build?
- digid, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@homeobocks
actually you're a bit mistaken. Computer Science is not about building applications it is not high level. In fact anyone considering doing Computer Science should have a love of math. I think anyone who majors in Computer Science should double major in Mathematics as Computer Science is very math intensive. In fact Computer Science exists because of Mathematicians(except that Computer Scientists get all the money :) ) Software engineering is more about higher level application design. Software engineers can get by without advanced mathematics however having a strong math background will be definately helpful. Carnegie Mellon has done some groundbreaking in getting Software Engineering more recognized as a degree. In fact they now have a PhD program in Computer Science. My prefered track is the Math/Computer Science Bachelor of Science and then Master of Software Engineering. - engwar, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2The whole offshoring scare is overblown. From what I've seen in the companies I've worked for and from what I've heard from people I know who manage teams of developers both on-site and offshore it's hit-or-miss.
It's easiest to manage people who are in the same office. It gets more difficult if they're local people working from a different location. Even more difficult still if they're halfway around the world speaking another language.
Sure there are great developers in India and other countries. The last guy I spoke who managed projects using both on-site and offshore people said he had to carefully choose what work to send overseas and then really ride herd over them to make sure the work got done. It's easy to slack when the boss is in another country. They've found that the mission-critical work was best done here.
Perhaps they just have a bad team of folks offshore. But it's not quite as easy to just switch to another team when they're not local.
Again not trying to totally minimize the offshore phenomenon but I'm no longer concerned about losing my job to India. And even if I did I could easily find work as a tech lead/project manager dealing with the offshore folks.
I see the job market for developers as pretty darned good right now at least here in St. Louis. No worries about the overseas programmers. In fact more power to them. - homeobocks, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"So...I am still in High School and definitely want to be a programmer - I already know C# and am learning Java and C++. So, which degree will help most if you get a job as a programmer? The artical made it sound like Software Engineering...Am I Correct?"
In most facilities, the computer science course focuses on higher-level design (applications) and the engineering course focuses on lower-level design (hardware, BIOS), but - especially in the first year - there is a lot of overlap between the courses. And most programming jobs don't look too hard at the degree you get. University degrees are a horrible programmer metric, and John Carmack and Bill Gates - very good programmers - became very rich without a university degree. In summary, if you're very smart, you'll be successful, and that a university degree is to teach you, not to show off on a resume. - plasma, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"Computer Science" is not science and "Software Engineering" is not engineering.
- zoransa, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2why India exclusively?
Actually now we have raise of near-shoring, Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Slovakia, Romania, Bulgaria, Serbia... and of course Ukraine and Russia.
And why are you winning? USA software industry almost doubles working power and spends only half of resources. We are not taking your jobs. We are doing our jobs and you do yours. Finally we are colleagues, and we should respect each other. I do not like to hear about Americans that are fat asses neither like to hear stories in which we steal somebodies jobs. - REpler, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I have degrees in both, this is just rubbish.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1lol yea, programming jobs are going offshores. People in India can do the same job a US programmer can do and for much less. Its not like these people are stupid either, they are comming out of good tech schools in India such as IIT with computer science degrees.
- SQUIDwarrior, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I graduated with a CS degree and landed a job doing embedded systems work right out of college (as in I got the call for the interview the day of my last final, 3 days later I had a job). My official job title is Software Engineer. I have been on the job for 7 months with no prior industry experience and I am already one of only 2 people my project lead trusts to work on mission-critical issues (this is an aviation project for the military and a high-degree of reliability is required). In my opinion, engineering and science are simply different terms for different ways of approaching a problem. I was hired because my way of approaching an issue, the way my mind views a problem, is different than those that come from an engineering background. I tend to approach things from a more high-level, algorithmic way while my colleagues look more at a low-level, hardware approach. Neither is inherently better; it depends on the problem. But having both views can really help improve the quality of the software.
- Ben1220, on 08/25/2009, -0/+1As a "Theoretical Computer Scientist", I also tend to agree mainly with this article, as most people who end up as programmers or software engineers do a computer science degree, having a much larger software engineering program will mean that computer science courses won't be so concerned with engineering principles such as software testing and design. What computer science is, and what is in computer science courses is alarmingly different at some schools, so giving an alternative to people who prefer focusing more on design and learning how to program will hopefully remove the need for teaching such subjects in a computer science degree. I will spare you all my rant on people's incorrect perceptions of computer science ect ect... I'll just say I agree fully with Dijkstra, but moving out all the people who aren't really interested in real computer science into software engineering degrees would be benificial for both fields. More classes on theory of computation, algorithms, discrete maths and graph theory for the computer science students who are actually interested those topics, and more classes on software design principles, object oriented software development, dynamic memory management and different Programming paradigm's for the majority, who probably won't need to know all that much about turing machines to get by as a code monkey.
Also I agree with what was said earlier by someone else, having both high level "abstract" developers who approach problems from an algorithmic perspective, and low level software engineers who focus more on implementation is probably for the best. - johnsto, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1As a Software Engineer myself (qualified'n'everything!) this is how I describe the difference to people:
Software Engineers are creative and optimistic. They plan, build, construct and test things.
Computer Scientists work out why what the Software Engineers built fell down. - mettkea, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Great article. I'm a true software engineer (graduated with a software engineering degree and my job title is software engineer). I could of took the easy route through college and became a computer scientist but I stuck with software engineering through the good and the bad times. I'm proud to be a software engineer!
- r©ain, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Uhhh lets see...
while ($NO_DUHH)
{
--$digg;
}
Software engineering is a craft not a science.
If you needed this article to tell you that, you certainly aren't a programmer. I'm sure those who aren't found it an interesting read though. - pbjorge12, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0So...I am still in High School and definitely want to be a programmer - I already know C# and am learning Java and C++. So, which degree will help most if you get a job as a programmer? The artical made it sound like Software Engineering...Am I Correct?
- zoransa, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Great article! I have to send it to my CEO to read it :)
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2If software engeineers built buildings half the population would die in a building collapse every time an airplane flew over or a truck drove by.
If computer scientists built buildings, we'd all be trying to figure out how to build an igloo in the sahari desert. - Bromskloss, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1You copied the whole article just like that to your blog, or whatever it is?! (And typeset it with light grey on white.) Pfsst..
- blackbelt88, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0finally this made the homepage.
- foodbar, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0The one software engineering class I took during my CS degree course was all documentation. Document what? Uh, never mind what, just document it.
- Trepan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0If you want to do some computer science, you're likely going to have a hard time finding a job. Not many people are willing to pay programmers to sit around and play all day
- heathenx, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Excellent article. I am an engineer. Even though I thought I knew the fine line between what is science and what is engineering I still learned a few things. I'll be reading this often to remind myself.
dugg. - Titan615, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I am at RIT for Software Engineering and I will say this, it is one of the fastest growing programs at RIT and the stuff they teach is incredible. I can't wait to get my degree and hit the workforce. Software Engineering is the way to go if you wanna build and create software.
- HighRisk, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0There is no such thing as "Software Engineering" because software engineers are not required ensure that their software works 100% of the time. As anonymoustroll said, if any other engineering discipline screwed up as much as these sofware guys do, everyone would be dead.
- GlitchEnzo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0@HighRisk: look up DO-178B, then see if you can tell me there is no such thing as Software Engineering
- mog0, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0As a professional software engineer with a masters degree in software engineering I wholeheartedly agree with the article. The skills that I was taught as part of my course were always geared towards producing quality products. I would recommend software engineering to anyone who wants to get into the industry.
- homeobocks, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0"So...I am still in High School and definitely want to be a programmer - I already know C# and am learning Java and C++. So, which degree will help most if you get a job as a programmer? The artical made it sound like Software Engineering...Am I Correct?"
Add-on to my previous post: you seem to be learning a lot of high-level languages. Go for a mid-level language, like C. You'll learn a lot from a very small language. - CamonZ, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0DUGG!!, Excellent article,
- cabazorro, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0yawn!
You can find the same crap (Computer Science vs. Software Enginner) in Wikipedia and is better written. Trite irrelevant dribble at best.
A more interesting article title to read would be:
Is Software Development Organic or Systematic? Now, that's more enticing isn't it.
Someone go write a good article on this title and have it submitted here by next Sunday. No late submissions! - sexualpotatoes, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0anyone else find this article pointless? I also was annoyed by the - everywhere
- LogicalMind, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Let me summarize the responses:
"Hey, I have a CS degree, software engineers suck!"
"Hey, I don't have a CS degree, I'm CS people suck!"
The reality is that there is a spectrum of computing ranging from the completely theoretical to the completely applied. Every school chooses what part of the spectrum to teach. So one schools CS degree is not equivalent to another schools CS degree. In general, a "software engineering" degree leans heavily towards applied applications of CS. Though, that does not mean a CS degree is entirely theoretical. Some schools CS degrees may be entirely applied, yet some may be completely theoretical. It all depends on the school. - sergio, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0My computer science degree included classes on architecture, product design and life-cycle, some theoretical stuff, operating systems (coding it, not coding on a specific platform -- although we did that too), databases, and programming languages (anything from S/390 assembler to Java). I didn't need to take any math, since I was originally a Civil Engineering major, and my math credits transferred over when I changed schools, so I don't know how intensive they were there. You never stop learning once you graduate.
What did the "software engineers" learn? - prgrmmr736, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Good article. Digg.
- po84, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Read Fred Brooks's "Computer Scientist as Toolsmith" article: http://www.cs.unc.edu/%7Ebrooks/Toolsmith-CACM.pdf.
- marreka, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Great Article!
Most of what was said in that article is how I see my degree in Computer Science, and where I want it to take me (after another 4 years :P)
Also, as a volunteer at my University, this is typically the way I describe the difference between Computer Science and Software Engineering to prospective students, who look at Software Engineering as a "superior" program because it has a higher entrance average. - uacheesehead, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Article seems to be missing from link.. but the pdf that is in the description still works..
- Mithrander, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Code Complete suckkkkkkkeeddddd. It's the common sense manual to writing computer programs.
- CaptainGs, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Good article, dug it. But seriously -- how many 'CompSci' people go into research, and not the 'craft' of software development. Almost none, really.
The distinction is interesting, but useless. Almost all computer science people, and software engineering people in college become ----- ........ Software Developers!
The only time this really doesn't apply is if said person goes to graduate school Immediately After undergrad. - ugasucks, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Anyone who has spent time as a 'programmer' can tell you that test scores, GPA, and EXPERIENCE, will get job a good job-- not the semantics behind the title of your degree. You need to investigate the fields you want to go in to, and see what is expected as a newcomer to that field.
A few pointers to you up-and-comers:
1. There are subtle differences between the two degrees, and one or two classes in the right area can help get you in the door.
2. Articles like McConnell's are read by very important people. As business-major-like as it sounds, catch phrases mean the world to 55-year-olds who are going to sign your paycheck.
3. A BS in Computer Science or Software Engineering will always sound better than a BA in Computer Science, IMHO.
4. Never underestimate social skills as a programmer. It's easy for the shy, kick ass programmer in the corner to be forgotten about when there's a reliable, well-spoken guy sitting out side of the boss' office. I've seen it happen time and time again, both as an employee and a manager. - konstratos, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0A+ Digg.
- nukethewhales, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0The problem with the "software engineering" model of programming is that there are too few people that consider development "engineering", and too many that consider it art. What I mean by this is that code is kept so secret that it is difficult to learn from others and "copying" another's way of solving a problem can lead to legal woes.
- o_sam_o, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0So does this mean that people with comp sci or it degrees are not as good as those with engineering degrees ? In my course there is a lot of debate about comp sci vs engineering and a lot of people ask should we have done the extra year. Personally i think having a real engineering degree counts for something.
- Veretax, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0a great article. ++Digg!... I actually work as a software developer but hold a degree (BS in Computer Engineering). In hindsight I wish i had more tilt toward software engineering, but my university only has SE as a Masters program and by the time I had graduated I was tired and burnt out on school. Now i wish I had stayed in. the moral of the story? A Bachelors means your trainable a masters means you know enough to train in your specialty.
- 2000, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Great article! Saved for future reference.
- zoransa, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0I just digg it and it made front apge WEEEEEEEEEEEE
- mlb5000, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0FINALLY someone has stated this formally. there's such a huge difference between compsci and software engineering. I'm currently enrolled in one of the only programs I could find that is actually called software engineering, at Penn State. The compsci majors here take classes that teach them excel and stuff like that, while the software engineers learn what makes those particular programs work internally. I feel sorry for my friends that think they're going to school somewhere else to learn the same things, but are enrolled as computer science majors.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0pretty good article :)
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0cool
- blackbelt88, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0wow, what an excelent article. Very informative for someone who has to decide what sort of computer related major they want to choose (ME!).
-
Show 51 - 56 of 56 discussions
