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94 Comments
- Vinthian, on 10/12/2007, -1/+72“It’s harder to read code than to write it”
So true... - cousinzoidfarb, on 10/12/2007, -3/+58It's true because this blogger is setting up a straw man argument and then tearing it down. It's pointless. The quote under scrutiny carelessly applies a phrase ("like to code") and this blogger selects his own pragmatics for the phrase and argues against it. Obviously a lot of programmers like to see their programs written their own way. If it's going to take just as much time and effort to do something my own way as it would to fix something in someone else's code, I'd rewrite it. l I think this is what the quote is trying to impart.
- meshman, on 10/12/2007, -4/+47"If programmers liked to code, we’d all be writing in machine language to this day."
Ridiculous. The two go hand in hand. If you're a programmer that doesn't like to program then you're not a programmer. I will agree with the 'someone elses code' thing though. Most often, you need to understand the scope of what ALL the code does, not just this little thing that needs to be fixed. Even if the foreign code is well written, it often requires considerable study first. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+35@MikeMcG
I've good news and bad news for you Mike.
First the good - that kind of enthusiasm is great and will help you get where you want to be. Sadly, when you get there you will realise that most production software is a mess, held together by tape and almost impossible to redesign from scratch because of a thousand unknown dependencies that will be broken.
Software is written for business, whatever that business may be. They want something that works and that is the end of it. A career as a developer is largely firefighting and enhancing a system well beyond its original remit.
Still, at least the money is good :) - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+34“It’s harder to read code than to write it”
Or is it that It feels like it will be quicker to re-write than to read and extend (with that niggling feeling that you are extending something that feels fundamentally flawed). - capiCrimm, on 10/12/2007, -2/+25I agree. Programming doesn't mean typing. If they were the same then everyone would just be smashing the keyboard all day. Writers don't like rambling circumlocutions, but does that mean they don't like writing?
If programming meant just problem-solving, then we'd all be solving crossword puzzles.
Programming means solving problems *by* writing code. Programmers are also lazy, and don't want to solve the same puzzle twice. *That* is the reason that we use libraries. A lot of programmers write the equivalent library on their own at some point, and it's not necessary to redo it for every problem. - Dycacian, on 10/12/2007, -1/+17I like to create the program, not just the code.
- greymaxcat, on 10/12/2007, -1/+13so... Do coders like to program?
- bioskope, on 10/12/2007, -3/+13Read the article after that paragraph before blowing your top off Cappy
"If programmers liked to code, they wouldn’t value a language by its libraries. If programmers liked to code, every last one of us would be overjoyed to write our own HTTP client.
Instead, programmers get pissed when they have to write code. “I just want to update this field in this file, why do I have to write an XML parser?” They will abandon languages/platforms wholesale that lack the features they need (either built-in or as libraries)."
I for one think he got it spot on .
Reading it further on only makes me empathise with the author. With statements like
"Programmers write code to learn."
He's pretty much writing my life story right there. I dont know about you. But most programmers I know and I have been in situations we've felt this way. But hey if that makes us non-programmers in your books, lets just agree to disagree
But seriously though , Please read the entire article. Jumping the gun might work when diggers dont bother to read the articles and just digg you up depending on how vehement you sound in making your point, as well as how close to the first post you are. But when it comes to topics like programming rest assured theres a higher chance that there might just be more people clicking on the outbound link - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10Cleaner doesnt like to clean,
Killer doesnt like to kill,
it's ***** obvious - nobody likes to WORK! :)) - nepawoods, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9"Programming doesn't mean typing."
Some of the best programmers I know are two finger hunt-and-peck typers. - praisethelard, on 06/06/2008, -0/+7I loved to code...but I still dropped CS because I couldn't picture myself in a cubicle a la Office Space. Plus, there was a severe lack of hot chicks.
- rokinroj, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8"Correct commenting is a must"
So true. If commenting is done properly and variables are named using some sort of consistent naming convention, i.e. _strLoginName, _intNewEmailCount, _bIsValidUser _etc., working in others code isn't so bad.
But when you come across z1 = (h00p)l9 - f with no comments and your like WTF? - headzoo, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7I disagree. I simply like to code. I code things all the time and then delete them, just because I enjoy typing up code. I have written HTTP servers just for the fun of it. I like problem solving too, but in the end I just like to code.
- thehouse, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6I rather tend to agree with the idea that programmers don't like to re-code. In the projects I have led I try to avoid "reinventing the wheel" as much as possible, mostly because it is a tedious waste of time.
It seems to me Programmers don't like to waste time is a more accurate statement. - Wisgary, on 10/12/2007, -7/+12@MikeMcG
I just totally wrote a command line calculator with python too. I did it in about the same time it takes me to open up python! Awesome! I'm such a badass I did it without even coding anything! - dragongrrl, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5
it's not that we don't like to code
it's that we don't want to have to be code monkeys. leave those boring, repetitive portions that are mostly typing exercises to the jr developers. i want to write the fun stuff, the stuff that's truly difficult and original. that's the *****. - coditza, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4@BoomShake007: Brunel was an engineer. He liked to build stuff, but I believe he hated to beat the crap out of a piece of iron to make each part of the thing he wanted to build.
Now, lets get to a practical example. You have to build an application that is supposed to get some text from the user and display it on various LCD screens.
You develop the main system, that takes the text and using a hierarchy of classes displays it on a LCD screen. You write the classes for 2-3 devices that you have around and you are happy with this fun job. This is programming.
Then, you have to add an user interface, add support for more devices (mainly reading docs and typing some code), do all that work that has nothing fun in it. 90% of the work a programmer does is just like this, plain, boring work. And I find no fun in this.
So yeah, I like programming, but I hate to code. - cousinzoidfarb, on 10/12/2007, -4/+8There are also programming jobs at institutions of science and education. You can also program if you just want to make the world a better place. I think this is why a lot of people write open source software. Not everyone cares about being rich.
- sdether, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4@eplawless
"We're still programming in assembly, which is nearly machine language."
Maybe you still are, but most of us are not and are happier for it.
Writing in assembly because you think you can write a faster copybits, now that's coding narcissism, but that's another topic. - antechinus, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4@rokinroj
Encoding data types into variable names as you are suggesting doing is a stupid practice and just adds to the maintenance burden. The Hungarian notation era was the high point of this stupidity. - Herolint, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I'm a programmer. I like the problem solving and architecting part of being a programmer, but I don't actually like writing code. I like writing code for myself, I guess, but when I do it for others, I've just taken a really great skill and turned it into nothing more than what a laborer does on a construction site; grunt work.
- Beaver6813, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4You shouldn't just delete it, post snippets in pastebin or whatever so if you ever need it again you can just grab it :-D
- jguevin, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4@dfick
>>> To say that programmers "like to code", means that programmers like writing code regardless of the problem.
Well, that's what this author takes "like to code" to mean, but that's at least debatable, and almost certainly not what Constantine or Rosenberg meant. That's why another poster called this a "straw man"--I think a better "correction" would have been to say "we like to code, understanding that coding isn't just typing away, but involves problem solving, visualization, and a good many other fun things." - Yez70, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Well said, I agree you need to understand the scope of what ALL the code does first.
- BoomShake007, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4I agree with you 100%. I've taken several programming courses over the years. We've been given problems to solve. I cared nothing about the problem, yet the beauty of the code drove me to complete it. I can't remember how many times I've re-coded my website with very minor changes, just because I love writing the code and the coding process. At this point, I have no problems to solve, no ends to reach, but I have a great desire to get back into coding.
Maybe that's just the engineer in me talking :P - Spamiclese, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3This just in! People DON'T like to work! I repeat, DON'T like to work!!!! More breaking news to follow, please stay tuned.
- nepawoods, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3"If programmers liked to code, they wouldn’t value a language by its libraries. If programmers liked to code, every last one of us would be overjoyed to write our own HTTP client."
Programmers like to code. That doesn't mean they don't have preferences regarding what they want to code and what they'd rather have built into a library.
"Instead, programmers get pissed when they have to write code. “I just want to update this field in this file, why do I have to write an XML parser?” They will abandon languages/platforms wholesale that lack the features they need (either built-in or as libraries)."
A real programmer doesn't "just want to update this field in this file". Such mundane tasks are an insult to his intelligence. It may have to be done to complete a job, but it doesn't show the programmers true worth. A programmer doesn't want to write an XML parser unless he can write a better XML parser, in which case the opportunity to rise to the challenge is most appreciated. - grumpyrain, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3"Correct commenting is a must. I can't tell you how many times I've studied code that wasn't commented corrected and spent hours more trying to understand it than it should have taken."
Even more important than commenting is naming conventions.
We don't need to see:
i++; // increments counter
I mean, if we didn't know that immediately from inspection, then what hope would we have of understanding anything past hello world?
Function names should be self commenting, and only require comments if there is some non-obvious nuance that is hard to express with a reasonable length function name. Of course, comments are still essential to explain the why. Why are you going down to the win API when there is a nice high level wrapper around that function, or why are you jumping to assembler?
I learnt my lesson when I went away for a few weeks a couple of years back, and I returned to an interesting problem, where in order to speed up some perceived slowness, a selection of my code had been commented out and replaced with a simpler query that did the same thing .... or so they assumed. This was my fault for not making it clear to them via the comments the checks it had to do in the background. - Waterispoison, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Correct commenting is a must. I can't tell you how many times I've studied code that wasn't commented corrected and spent hours more trying to understand it than it should have taken.
- Bostonsox, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5Damn...maybe I should switch back to CompSci major, i hated to code, so I dropped it.
- Ninjamonk, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I like it, It likes most jobs somedays are crap some are great, mostly great mind.
I think the author is on to something when he goes on about solving problems more. When you are writing something new its interesting but when you are writing something old its not.
same can be said for most jobs I would guess. I would imagine a designer would get bored laying up a 1200 catalogue with 1994 pages with the same layout. - maximthegreat, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I definitely love problem solving but hate to do more than I have to. Coding is a means to an end. Basically it boils down to this for me: if I think I can do better, I'll code it from scratch (even if assembly is involved). If I think it's a well-solved problem, I'll use what's already available.
Of course, I'm an electrical engineer (computer engineer specifcally) who codes, rather than a computer scientist, so maybe my opinion doesn't count.
Maxim - maexus, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I agree, I hate typing out code. Well it wasn't so bad in the beginning but now it's just like UGH, esp SQL queries. BUT I love when I finish a project, figure out a better solution.
- pixel, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Nobody writes like me and nobody will ever write like me. So there :p
Close to 30 years of writing software for me... damn I'm getting old.
Superbowl in 90 minutes. GO COLTS!!! - xtmno3, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2If you want a nightmare for coding, try working with SAP. The original code (and thus most of the comments) is written by Germans. Add that to the fact that it is massive in nature, and is pretty tricky to debug through, and you have what I work with. In school I liked writing my own code because you knew what it did and why....I no longer have that luxury.
That being said, I still like my job because it gives me a challenge, and because it is really good experience. - revolvingcur, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Think "wrench."
- taswitzer, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2i with you. i'm a coder by heart, mind and soul. i love to sit and code all day and night. if i had a choice, i would get everyone else to handle the rest of the development processes and code forever with just me or a very very small team. ( I'm not claiming that this is the best way to run a software BUSINESS, just what i like to do.) when other people come home from programming jobs and turn on the tv or WoW, i honestly, naturally, start writing code for my "off-time". sometimes just some random code or design framework, out of the blue. i see my code design similar to how some writers see their work, i get REALLY into it. i get my happiness and from my prolific nature. i'm sure if your profession doesn't make you happy WHILE YOU ARE DOING IT, then i guess i can see the authors point.
- Pootle4rthur, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2which is more or less the same as saying, we want to problem solve rather than just repeat the same old solutions to the problems we've already solved
The trouble with being a dull coding is that you're little more than a glorified data entry chimp until you get to the bits that require some proper thought - BlackAdderIII, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Yeah, I think the reality is that studying other people's stuff at great length isn't very fun for most programmers (well, with most stuff, some is a pleasure to read about) - especially where the documentation is horribly lacking.
For me, even quite arduous programming work is preferable to that.
Add to that control-freakery, hubris, laziness vs. obsessiveness and all the other essential tools of the programmer/mathematician's psychological toolkit and you can recreate the bug quite reliably. - gmckenzi, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I agree with the article. I'll add that I've found over the years that my apparent laziness has increased. At one time I was happy writing reams of C code bristling with mallocs and such. Upon spending time with C++ I couldn't go back to C for the things I found enjoyable about C now seemed to be overwhelmed by tedium. Same thing happened when moving to Java after C++, where C++ once seemed remarkable, it now seemed to be overrun by weeds. Learning Ruby did the same thing to the way I experience Java, which I now find harder to enjoy.
Not only do I prefer to avoid writing code unless I have to, I also have a hard time going back to languages and techniques that once seemed so normal. Less code can also be found by moving away from languages that demand of you too much needless syntax, too much manual housekeeping, to much role-playing the machine instead of focusing on the problem. Once you've successfully done more with less, it's hard to go back. - deadbaby, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2This is why I'm not a very good programmer. I can use built in libs just fine but when it comes to writing large chunks of original code I get a bit overwhelmed and discouraged and eventually quit. I have a ton of respect and admiration for programmers who can sit down and crank out line after line of original code. I envy you guys.
- BlackAdderIII, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Funny for me seeing this now, as I've been doing this at work for the last week (implementing something myself because the API was pissing me off).
Great when you do it and you make something that works beautifully, just how you want it, and educational even if you don't - for my part I do enjoy implementing stuff myself more if I have the time, and it *is* out of laziness and the desire to fully control, to understand entirely.
Dugg because it addresses one of the old truisms we (programmers) all face regularly, but maybe don't analyse that much. - lubix, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I would love to learn assembler
- gta3mobster, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2"It seems to me Programmers don't like to waste time is a more accurate statement."
Laziness is one of the virtues of a programmer, according to my prior comp sci teacher. Usually being lazy does save time, too. This does not mean a work ethic is not present, though. - zeptobyte, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2I'm keeping CS but going to med school, because I love coding but can't see myself doing it as a career.
- antdude, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Cached copy: http://rentzsch.com.nyud.net:8080/notes/programmersDontLikeToCode
- Beaver6813, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2I dunno... i gotta be in the mood to code :-) Doesn't mean i dont like to do it, but i gotta be in the right frame of mind and set myself a goal. It also helps being rewarded for it, or knowing that you will be at some point ^^
Although its annoying me quite recently that for some reason i'm not leaving my scripts alone till they're dead perfect, which makes it really hard to them through and out of beta :P
In short, programmers to like to code, when they're in the mood. - bshock, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I suffer from a medium case of Obsessive/Compulsive Disorder. I actually like to code. As long as I'm coding, my anxiety is at a minimum.
Sorry, dude. - bpapa, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I can see what the guy is saying. I'm a Java guy, and the first thing I do before write something that seems somewhat generic is check the Jakarta commons libraries to see if somebody else has already written it. I'd much rather use open-source, well tested code as opposed to my own. In my mind it's much cooler to get that final functionality working as opposed to, for example, writing the method to sort a set of names Alphabetically by last name, or something.
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