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170 Comments
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+37"If you have trouble coding in Perl, just let your cat walk on the keyboard for a while. Then you just have to debug it."
- zephc, on 10/12/2007, -6/+29"Tell me something Perl can't do that Ruby/Python/PHP can."
Do object-oriented programming while simultaneously not looking like ascii cat vomit. - ceralor, on 10/12/2007, -3/+21If you're going to compare languages, might as well compare them all. PHP blows all of those away.
http://www.google.com/trends?q=perl%2C+python++-monty%2C+ruby%2C+php%2C&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all - acidzebra, on 10/12/2007, -3/+17"I have only ever thought of Perl as an old language"
And I think of you as a young whippersnapper. Difference is, Perl has already proved it worth: it is still around and in active use. What have you done recently? - ZenMasterJG, on 10/12/2007, -3/+17I donno if perl is "dying"
I'm not a huge fan of perl, but it definatly has its place. Its still great for CGI, and i much prefer writing up some perl to do anything involving harcore text processing then, say, awk.
Perl started off to fill a niche, and it just grew out from there. With the competition from python and ruby, its just being forced back into its niche. where it belongs. - tvashtar, on 10/12/2007, -1/+14@tehpoutine did you stop to consider the "funny" might not particularly lie with the relevant ads as much as with the absence of ads for Perl scripting tools?
- Grimdotdotdot, on 10/12/2007, -3/+16Not even that - it's just 'too hard' for some people.
- elusive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+14"Perl is dying"
So? Lisp, and Fortran, and Haskel and dozens of other languages that many people use every day are dead to most people. Pogramming languages rarely ever "die", they just move out of the mainstream. - h0ly, on 10/12/2007, -10/+21http://www.google.com/trends?q=perl%2C+python%2C+ruby
- strcmp, on 10/12/2007, -2/+13Perl will come back when people slap themselves in the face upon realizing that using Java for everything wasn't such a great idea.
"We know that Java must be pretty good, because it is the cool, new programming language. Or is it? If you look at the world of programming languages from a distance, it looks like Java is the latest thing. (From far enough away, all you can see is the large, flashing billboard paid for by Sun.) But if you look at this world up close, you find that there are degrees of coolness. Within the hacker subculture, there is another language called Perl that is considered a lot cooler than Java. "
-Paul Graham, "Revenge of the Nerds" - synthrabbit, on 10/12/2007, -3/+13I have only ever thought of Perl as an old language, so this doesn't really surprise me. I just listened to a TWiT interview with Randal Schwartz (http://www.twit.tv/floss/randall_schwartz), and it does sound kind of interesting though.
- cronot, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11Take a look at your link. Most of the links outlined in the graph are about stuff that doesn't have anything to do with Python or Ruby - the language. While the Perl graph seems more accurate, you can't say by that graph that Python or Ruby are taking Perl's mindshare (even if that's true, to a certain extent).
That graph also don't necessarily mean that Perl's mindshare is falling. Newer people tend to go after newer or "trendy" technologies (Python, Ruby, PHP, etc.). Older or experienced people will stick to what they have been using so far, and that would be Perl. Those people tend to be experienced enough to not need to look for stuff about it on the web, thus the fall on the "trends". It just mean that people have been researching less about it, and I think that's natural.
Don't get me wrong, I'm no Perl fanboy - I've done some work on it, but I rather use Python (I'm still trying to learn Ruby on my spare time). All I'm saying is that Google Trends is no indication of the downfall of a scripting language. - DickBreath, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10Both the Unix and Lisp comments are right on. Don't know why you got modded down.
Windows becomes more Unix like every day. (I won't go into details.)
Other programming languages become more Lisp like every day. I remember when people used to argue about garbage collection. Now I don't hear those arguments anymore. I remember as a Lisp programmer predicting that eventually most languages would have automatic memory management. Now what does everyone like? Scripting languages with GC (Ruby, Python, JavaScript, etc.) or compiled languages with GC (Java, C#). More and more Lisp features become mainstream. Functions as first class types. Closures.
I find it amusing to have watched what has happened to programming languages over the last 25 years, and then see someoen get modded down for recognizing the truth that languages converge upon Lisp and OSes converge upon Unix. - jrmy, on 10/12/2007, -4/+13I don't know about you guys but if you ask me David Heinemeir Hansson kind of look like a douche-bag in that picture. Now I am sure he is not but I just hate how some photographers make people pose is such stupid ways.
- theorbtwo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9Hello, this is one of the administrators of perlmonks.org. Thanks for your interest in this thread, it's good to see all the support. (Though, of course, I'd also love to hear ideas, since I think the original poster may be more correct then I wish he was.)
Anyway, rather predictably, digg and reddit have managed to make our site (which tends to value interactivity over efficiency) somewhat unusable. I'll get up a redirect for the original URL soon, but in the meantime, http://qs321.pair.com/~monkads/561229.html is the URL to use. That'll be updated off our database every half-hour if my quick and dirty cron job works. Sorry about the inconvenience. - gmillerd, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10Audrey pwns them both ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audrey_Tang
http://pugs.blogs.com/photos/audrey/mypicture_2.html
... perl is a pretty insane language pugs/perl6 is pretty cool stuff. Somewhere it lost traction - cazabam, on 10/12/2007, -5/+13Perl is dying because Perl5 is old? What about C? That's older than Perl and going strong. Perl is still a great language, and the part that makes it great (modules, e.g. CPAN) is still growing and growing. Perl is not dead or dying, it's just not "Web2.0" enough for a lot of people.
- seanmac, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10Just because it was invented before the 90's doesn't mean it's old. A technology's "age" should be judged by its utility, not the number of years since it was invented, and by this measure, Perl is alive and well.
- MoeDrippins, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9Any "...is dying" thread about languages is 25 years early, if that. There are still more lines of cobol out there than anyone wants to believe. Fortran too. Lisp is making a comeback in Common Lisp, and designers are constantly folding "old" ideas into new bodies. Python, Ruby, Scala, etc. all have a *LOT* of Lisp and Smalltalkisms as fundamental features. (Even the new Java based scripting language Groovy.)
perlmonks.com however, seems to have passed on. - interiot, on 10/12/2007, -5/+13A little more accurate (doesn't count "monty python"). Perl is still on top by that measure, though clearly declining.
http://www.google.com/trends?q=perl%2C python -monty%2C ruby&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all - brandonr, on 10/12/2007, -9/+16Perl has lost a lot of the appeal it once had. As the article states, we haven't seen a new version in a very long time. I have to wonder how much of this has to do with style. Python and Ruby are "sexy" --for lack of a better term... To help illustrate what I'm talking about. Look at these pictures
Ruby on Rails creator David Heinemeier Hansson: http://www.loudthinking.com/lt-files/linuxjournal.jpg
Perl creator Larry Wall: http://domm.zsi.at/talks/2004_vienna_perl_culture/larry_wall.jpg
I'm not trying to pick on Mr. Wall, I'm a huge Perl fan, it was my first programming language. But when I look at these two guys, I understand why the transition away from Perl is happening. Perl 6 is needed in a big way. - smellinator, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8@stupidstan, and your comment "Lisp is a language used almost EXCLUSIVELY in AI projects and collegiate instruction."
I just finished reading the cult classic "Hackers and Painters", and was surprised to read that the author, Paul Graham, made all his wealth selling his web app to Yahoo (which eventually became Yahoo Stores, or something like that), and it was written in Lisp. He really bragged about the power of Lisp, citing it as a major competitive advantage. $57 Million later, the guy got my attention! I figured I better pick up a LISP book. - sstidman, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8"What does perl have to do with the web?"
Perl is used fairly commonly for CGI scripting. - DickBreath, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6COBOL is alive and well.
You could say it is "old" or "prooven".
In any event, just because it is alive and well does not mean that it is somehow "good", nor that one should use it in a new project. - Darkhacker, on 10/12/2007, -4/+10I'm not the kind of guy that goes around bashing comments or picking on fanboys but don't you think you might be just a little evangelical by suggesting that ALL operating systems will be Unix? Just so you know, Linux, FreeBSD, and pretty much any other POSIX operating system is not actually Unix. They are Unix clones. Unix itself has very little marketshare and some would argue that the honest and true (not cloned) Unix is dead. I myself wouldn't go as far as to say that it is "dead" although it doesn't excactly have a bright future. Linux, FreeBSD, and the others seem to be doing well but even they won't make up 100% of operating systems as you claim. Infact, Windows isn't even the most popular OS. There was an artical on Digg not more than a week ago talking about how an embedded OS (TRON I believe it was called) was the most widely used for devices as a whole. Even if you were only talking about PCs and servers, there will always been non-Unix operating systems and some people may actually prefer them to Unix or its clones. As much as you may like Unix operating systems, it is clear that they will not be the only OS in existance. It is all about picking the tool that is right for the job.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+9Perl isn't dying, it's just not hip. Dont pick your languages based on what books are on the endcap at your local bookstore. Php and Ruby just haven't proven themselves to have any longevity yet. They are great for websites that have a lifespan measured in months but the lifespan of good code is measured in years. And that code has to be maintained over those years.
There is a lot of Perl code doing mission critical things at a lot of corporations. It's not in a COBOL like state either, there just because it's there and too expensive to replace. It's object oriented, networked code that is fast and efficent for what it's doing. Easy to evolve to meet current needs. It's not just old code either, new projects are started (and completed quickly) daily.
We've got terrabytes worth of data flowing hourly through Perl code around the world. Status is communicated through perl CGI code interfaced to a graphics package for producing real time graphs. There are a couple of Python and PHP scripts mixed in there because some hipper-than-the-room coop wrote them but when a new need arises it's usually written in Perl. It's proven to be quick and easy to develop and maintain. PHP and Ruby or whatever comes along next has not. - tapo, on 10/12/2007, -4/+10(Audrey Tang used to be a guy.)
- scramble, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6ZenMasterJG - "With the competition from python and ruby, its just being forced back into its niche. where it belongs."
Perl started out as a niche language, but has been greatly extended. I think its days as a niche language are long gone. Tell me something Perl can't do that Ruby/Python/PHP can.
As far as programming languages go, Perl can do anything I need it to do. - cabazorro, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7Don´t forget. Perl and Duct Tape are here to stay. Forever.
- eczarny, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6@rfunches
Just because C/C++ is being dropped for Java in universities doesn't mean those language are dying. Actually, I think switching to Java is bad idea... It hides a lot of important programming concepts from C.S. students. What really bothers me is how many C.S. students get tied down to one particular language, they forget that the point of C.S. is learn enough about computer theory, algorithms, and problem solving so that they can pick up ANY programming language that best fits a solution.
Every programming language has it's niche, and every language eventually finds new ones. Perl is very alive, especially in newer fields such as Bioinformatics. C/C++ is very alive. C is the de facto standard for low level / multi-platform system programming, and C++ is still widely used. - roqs, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8perl is still going to be about for a while.. its got another 15 years imo,.
- f0ad, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Perhaps none of you have heard of Delphi.
- gmerin, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5check out php's library of functions and see where they come from; many (most) are php translations of modules on CPAN.
- pyrolyte, on 10/12/2007, -13/+18All languages will eventually die off, as all of them are converging to LISP. Same thing with operating systems, they will all be unix one day.
- SuperSloth, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7The primary problem most people have with Perl is that the code evetually obfuscates itself, making it difficult to impossible to maintain. People moved to PHP, Python, and Ruby precisely because of this complaint.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7if any of you guys have ever had to use WWW::Mechanize as heavily as I have know that perl is definitely not dead, and certainly a lifesaver.
- forkqueue, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7Are Weird Al Yankovic and Larry Wall the same guy?
- eczarny, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Rails isn't a CMS...
- vordhosbn, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4"Do "you geeks" honestly say "langs" in conversation? Just wondering."
LOL! i just had a great chuckle imagining a couple of nerds talking about "langs." - TheSolomon, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Don't forget to add a "-slippers" when comparing ruby to perl. Seriously, it has a drastic affect on the graph. Heh. :-)
- rfunches, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7"What about C? That's older than Perl and going strong."
I'd beg to differ. Every school that I know of (high school and college/university) is dropping C/C++ in favor of Java. The AP and IB Comp Sci exams switched over a few years ago. Colleges and universities are no longer giving credit for intro to programming classes using C/C++. I'd say that's fairly solid proof that C/C++ is not going strong, but rather losing steam. - kandresen, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6This may be more accurate(?)
http://www.google.com/trends?q=perl+programming%2C+python+programming%2C+php+programming%2C+ruby+programming&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all
Seems like they all end up about equally much searched. - volatileacid, on 10/12/2007, -4/+8PERL is NOT dying! In the real world, I know many people who can script in PERL, and use it to solve many jobs which require character processing and other general manipulations of text based interactions.
PERL is easy to get to grips with when trying to accomplish simple tasks, but can get quite powerful especially if you understand pattern matching, and 'Expect'. - Ace128, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4There do exist packager apps for Perl like PAR! No need to care about what is needed. Creator pack all in one executable, and voilá! Ready to run just like that. Me and some other dude have also discussed some neat extract and run ONLY inmemory! (PAR extracts into a temp dir, but this new "packer" uses memory only. Extracting on the fly and when needed!) Quite neat stuff! And I don't understand this "hard to read" part. As with all languages you have to understand some basic fundamentals about that language. What exactly is hard to read aboutPerl codee? Sure, if it's obfuscated code, sure it's hard to read :), but if the code is properly written, what's hard about it?
- ncmusic, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4We're actually doing *new* development in Fortran at my company.
- jeffyjones, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Perhaps the more relevant context for the article is that the language is dying for *web development*, and in that case I think that's fair. The point about it being all there was for dynamic Web sites is pretty valid, and we've seen plenty of alternatives with very active communities and development. I don't care for PHP at all, but I can't deny its relative ease of use compared to Perl. I did what I had to back in the day to understand it a bit, but I didn't care for it.
Perhaps the most relevant question is, who is using Perl for Web development today? I can't say I've seen it used in any of my recent gigs. Pretty much everything is .NET, some Java and a little PHP in the bigger corporate world.
I guess I don't understand why this kind of thing becomes a religious debate. - Dracker, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4In fact, I should be coding perl right now. It's my job.
Perl isn't going anywhere. As unix-like operating systems gain popularity, so will perl.
The fact that it's been around means there's a lot of knowledge and experience out there and not hard to learn. Perhaps all those searches for other languages were repeats looking for how to do a certain task ;)
On a more serious note, the ruby line should exclude jewlery and the like. - Mooseknuckle, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3$perl or die;
- geocar, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4@SuperSloth
No they didn't. They "switched over" because enough people kept telling them (or their phbs) that productivity isn't important, but that some mythical future maintainability (which isn't even guaranteed) is.
There is much more unmaintained and unmaintainable PHP than there is for Perl- just take a look at all those web-boards with "custom changes" by the webmaster that has locked himself out of an upgrade cycle...
@vonnie
Who cares if later never comes? Maybe the code "just works"?
Why give something an hour of thought if 10 minutes will be enough?
I've seen plenty of absolutely hideous python, and plenty of pleasantly gorgeous perl. It's not the language that does these things, but the programmer, and somehow people started getting the idea that the quality of the programmer is by their language, and not their code. - scramble, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4That chart could be very misleading. The Y axis doesn't have a label. So you could take ANY axis, and zoom in close enough to make a mountain out of a molehill.
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