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65 Comments
- stevex, on 10/12/2007, -2/+25If you're doing C++ development on Windows, you'd be crazy to try to use Eclipse instead of Visual Studio. Use the best tool for the job. Today, that's Eclipse for Java development, and Visual Studio for C++ development.
For example, Eclipse has no support for debugging C++ projects on Windows. Seems like an important feature of an IDE, no? - paulmdx, on 10/12/2007, -4/+22Couple of tips for ya, because I'm sure you're well meaning.. (1) Don't use that quote ASCII stuff, just " " would be fine. (2) Try to avoid hella long posts, it makes it difficult for people to navigate. :-)
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -6/+21Eclipse is nice and all, but it's a terrible memory hog and it's very very slow.
- berwiki, on 10/12/2007, -5/+20Ugh, your post is incredibly annoying. Developers do not 'favor' linux, meaning I'm sure as hell not going out of my way to use Eclipse. I am a developer, all my friends from school are developers, we have no intentions of forcing ourselves to use Eclipse for C/C++ programming when Visual Studio already works so damn well.
Also, Visual Studio 6 is about 10 years old now. I dont see ANY benefit in migrating my 10+ year old code to Eclipse.
When Eclipse runs C# code for .Net 2.0 (and now 3.0) code, then I MIGHT consider switching. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+13Brother, you speak the truth. VS is the best C++ IDE in Windows, and Eclipse is the best Java IDE (regardless of platform).
I have to say that VS2005 is a little unpolished (it compiles and builds things in a weird order, so it messes up the linking sometimes), and I still would prefer VS 2003 .NET. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10I tried using eclipse at work, but it just didn't last. Having multiple vobs mounted, the thing would go through all my code and try to index it and whatever crap it does at startup. Got to the point where eclipse would take an hour to load.
Now I use UltraEdit and love it. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -7/+16I'd like to convert our corporation's Java projects to C# as Visual Studio is a infinitely better IDE.
- halik, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8Umm why would you do that? From the comparison page:
No debugging support (!); debugging support available only for gcc-compiled C code on platforms other than Windows. Microsoft Debugging Tools for Windows required
No resource editor
No MFC support (!)
No tools specific for Windows platforms
... if you're working with c++ under VS, odds are that you're you're working on stuff that runs on top of windows. Using eclipse would be like tying your hand behind you back. - MioTheGreat, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8So install the SP1 beta. It runs like a dream after that.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -6/+13I bury your comment because it's biased. Those ***** "101 Reasons Why" are inaccurate compilations created to generate flamewars. For both sides (Java AND C# - and I'm a C# developer).
Not to mention that you are the #1 anti-MS submitter of Digg. - NateB2, on 10/12/2007, -5/+11Another vote for Visual Studio 2005 Professional. I have used other IDE's and VS is my favorite by *far.* There is a place for open source, and this is not it (yet).
- Heavy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7I rather poke my eyes out whit a rusty spoon!
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8Agreed. I've tried just about every open-source IDE, even the ones for Linux, and I have to say that VS is by far superior in just about any aspect. Once you use VS, anything else is just... disappointing.
One day, though.
Too bad they don't have a Linux client. - hockey, on 10/12/2007, -4/+10For my needs Visual Studio 6.0 is still my favorite. Since it's a few years old it runs quick on modern hardware and it does what I need. Gives me an editor with syntax highlighting, a debugger, bracket matching, and it compiles good code. Also once you get used to it, it becomes easy to use (at least for me anyway).
- t2048, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5People have said it already, but I will re-iterate the absolutely inexcusable shortcomings:
1) No support for debugging
2) No support for handling resources
3) It claims that there is no way to create "plug-ins" to extend the Visual Studio IDE - this is absolutely false. File->New Project->Extensibility Projects->Visual Studio .NET Add-in
#1 is enough to keep me far far far away from Eclipse CDT.
If you're piecing applications together by compiling a bunch of other peoples libraries, maybe you can get by without a debugger. Good luck. - Snarfy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5FTA:
Debugging
-------------------------------------------------------------------
VisualStudio - Complete debugging support
-----------------------------------------------------------
Eclipse/CDT - No debugging support; debugging support available only for gcc-compiled C code on platforms other than Windows. Microsoft Debugging Tools for Windows required
If I were to use an open source C++ IDE on Windows, I'd use Code::Blocks. It's much more functional than CDT. - paulmdx, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7I wouldn't say VS2005 is particularly quick (pre-SP). I find it fantastic for ASP.NET web app dev, however, so I'll let it off. :-)
I believe MS are going to be making Python available for the .NET platform through VS too? - marnaq, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5"Now wait and watch how people bury this comment, despite all the effort I put in. They prefer one-liners, unlike Slashdot, for example"
lol. why? cause your comments are spam/useless. - berwiki, on 10/12/2007, -7/+11haha, EvilTak, I've NEVER had VS2005 crash on me. wtf is wrong with your setup?!
Just because you enjoy installing porn dialers and spyware doesnt mean VS2005 is crappy. - pickypg, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I never enjoyed using Eclipse, and I've been stuck helping multiple friends still in college that use Eclipse as mandated by their CS departments. Usually, just dealing with Java was okay, but when they moved to C++ it was horrible to both configure and use. Not to mention its lack of debugging support in Windows killed my ability to quickly turn around code with them (as I was stuck copying it over and modifying it slightly to work in VS).
- tehbio, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Naio21,
I'd recommend looking into IronPython. ;-)
On another note, I do support open source and Eclipse is definitely a strong application, but VS2005 is simply too great for me to want to use Eclipse for any type of development that I could do in VS2005. In fact, I'm often wishing I could do Java development in VS2005 rather than Eclipse. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6"I believe MS are going to be making Python available for the .NET platform through VS too?
It's up to the language developers make it available for the .NET framework, not MS... - krizo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Ahem...
Visual Studio + Visual Assist = C++ Programmer's Heaven
That is all. - Ademan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3@naio21
Iron python.
http://www.codeplex.com/Wiki/View.aspx?ProjectName=IronPython
Not MS made as far as i can tell, but afaik it's also not made by the python developers. For example anyone could in theory make a C compiler, not just the people who wrote the C standard. - msturgill, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Why? Just use SharpDevelop. It's open source and great.
- posure, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Agreed that its a resource hog, but then again, EVERY program written in Java is. That said, Eclipse is a good IDE, just not one I would use on Windows because Visual Studio is superior. I do use Eclipse when I'm developing in Linux though.
RE: The Python reference
IronPython is a Microsoft-sponsored project to make Python a CLR language. There are projects for other scripting languages as well, including a Microsoft-sponsored project for Ruby (which I personally can't wait for, its a sexy language, it just isn't all that useful currently and has ***** documentation). - Chewie67, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Quoted directly from the site:
No debugging support
No resource editor
No MFC programming support
So, essentially it's a text editor and gcc. Fantastic.
Next! - posure, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2A vob is the Rational ClearCase name for a repository (like in CVS/SVN). For those that don't know what ClearCase is; it is a version control solution similar to CVS and SVN except that it is aimed towards enterprise users (and has some enterprise related features that CVS/SVN don't have).
- OpCzar, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4"Gives me an editor with syntax highlighting, a debugger, bracket matching, and it compiles good code."
That would also apply for Eclipse. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2@Surreal: "Maybe not anti-MS, just linux-centric."
Unfortunately anti-Microsoft and Linux-centric are almost synonyms. God, how I'd like they weren't so the software industry could be a more reasonable place to work at!
Besides that, our friend schestowitz's posts are ALWAYS pro-Linux (or OSX) / anti-Windows, pro iPod / anti-Zune, pro Firefox / anti-IE, pro-many things NOT from MS / anti-everything FROM MS. Just check his comment's history to see for yourself. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -6/+7For instance:
- Enhanced intellisense
- Stored procedure debugging
- Code snippets (shortcuts for blocks of code)
- Code obfuscation
- A very very good help, both off and online
- Amazing team integration and code versioning
- Etc etc etc
But it's important to say that all these resources are already bundled out-of-the-box. Maybe Eclipse can offer similar stuff, but you have to chase for plugins (some of them paid), what sometimes is not a very task. - Topher06, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Why would you do this. Move from a mature, feature rich product to something that is might have a few good features, but is half-ass and half implemented.
Ooh, but is open source! And open source is better right?
You can say anything you want about Windows, Office, Vista, Microsoft in general, but one thing Microsoft does right is their development tools. While someone might gripe about some lack of petty feature in Visual Studio overall it is lightyears ahead of everything else. It will take a decade for an open source IDE to get to where VS is, and then VS will only get better in that time as well.
Also .Net 3.0, if your not developing Windows applications in .Net 3.0, your wasting time and money. - tehbio, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2I don't completely agree, but the only features (that currently come to mind) that Eclipse has that I'd like in VS2005 is the suggestive fixes for common errors (for example, if I'm trying to use a Hashtable without importing the correct package Eclipse would suggest common fixes for this (one being to add the specific import)), VS2005 does, in some cases, suggest fixes for common errors, but they are never actual solutions specific to that error. The other feature I found myself enjoying in Eclipse was the whole 'perspective' model, I use VS2005 for multiple languages and feel I would benefit from similar functionality within VS2005.
- dflag, on 10/12/2007, -3/+4real men use vim.
- Novagenesis, on 10/12/2007, -3/+4Vim is definitely the most efficient option.
Of course, you gotta learn it, and that's like learning a new language and the Dvorak keyboard at the same time......
not that it isn't worth it. - cebbs, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1If you are developing Windows applications I have no clue why you wouldn't use VS. Its layout is elegant, and does a fantastic job of optimizing code.... it at least kicks gcc's butt.
- PleaseJustDie, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3I prefer DevC++ for my C/C++ coding, but I also do most of my C++ coding using Win32 APIs and not using the MFC. If I work on a project where I need to use the MFCs I use VS6.
- hockey, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2I know I made a root level comment below but I have to add this.
For Windows development I use Visual Studio 6.0 but for Linux development I love KDevelop.
For people who rail against Linux and KDE I challenge you to give KDevelop a serious look for code development. - sbrown123, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1I don't know what your "vobs" are, but just tell Eclipse to ignore them (right of Package Explorer->Menu->Filter). There, no more "vobs".
- ucg1, on 10/12/2007, -4/+4VS.Net 2005's intellisense has a few places where its better than Eclipse, but overall Eclipse has much better code completion.
I have code snippets through the MyEclipse plugin, have never really found them useful except when doing web development (JSP's). Yes, my company pays $30/year for MyEclipse which is a complete set of plugins. Much better than having to pay for VS.Net Team Edition (though we purchased that as well). Eclipse WTP (Web Tools Projects), which is free, does everything that MyEclipse does that I need, so I use that for my personal projects. They have an all-in-one installer for Eclipse + WTP, so you don't have to worry about hunting for plugins.
Here's what I think Eclipse has that VS.Net 2005 doesn't:
- A proper docking windows implementation. VS.Net's gets in the way and there is no way to "maximize" a panel like you can in Eclipse.
- "Perspectives" - especially the ability to save your own customized perspective.
- Incremental compilation and excellent error reporting and "quick fixes" (for Java code at least)
- Much better code completion (e.g. code completion for loops), ability to generate get/set methods
- Much better refactoring
- Better user interface in general (the docking windows is just one example where its better, easier keyboard shortcuts is another)
I've been using both Eclipse/VS.Net side-by-side for the last 3 years (for Java and C# respectively). Eclipse is a joy to write code in, VS.Net is more of a pain to use (though it has a few minor points where it shines). There are specific tasks that VS.Net is a little better for, but for pure coding Eclipse is way ahead.
Can't comment on doing C/C++, though. VS may be better for that. - stupend, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I used to coding in JEdit and GVim.
VS/Eclipse is too HEAVY for most of my works. - sbrown123, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3Eclipse is a memory pig, but so is VS2005. Both have their moments and I have crashed both. VS2005 starts up faster, but the interface is clunky and slow. Eclipse interface is noticeable faster, but it sure ain't pretty. VS2005 has more in-the-box stuff, whereas Eclipse can be extended through plugins to be more extendable, advanced, and customizable. In the end I prefer Eclipse, but I wish there was a decent .NET IDE for it -or- I wish Microsoft would figure out what the hell went wrong from the last version of VS which was quicker, more responsive, and required far less memory.
- lassel, on 10/12/2007, -5/+5That is a wild statement.
Please mention the things you think Visual Studio does better than Eclipse (Java)
There might be a few, but there will be more than a few advantages the other way. - Surreal, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2Use netbeans for java!
I find it to be superior for java dev. - JohnnySoftware, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1@Chewle67: "So, essentially it's a text editor and gcc. Fantastic."
Right - there is no debugger, and wrong - CDT running on Eclipse is not just a text editor.
The article plainly spells out: "SDLC phases supported... Designing, coding, configuration management, testing, etc."
Also, you get refactoring capability and there is a lot more involved there than just text-editing. Plus, CDT does have a fancy debug capability that works with the GNU development programming tools. Read this article....
http://opensource.sys-con.com/read/256604.htm
So while you are right and that it is missing a debugger in the context the article describes, that is not an inescapable limitation. There have been CDT debuggers created.
http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/opensource/library/os-ecc/
MFC was designed over a decade and a half ago and it does not come close to exemplifying object-oriented design. It uses data-driven dispatch tables implemented with C preprocessor macros.
Programmers get a better shake out of almost any C++ GUI framework out there, and there are quite a few. A decent number are portable. Brand new apps are going to be easier to write in most cases in C# or Java, than in C++/MFC.
If you are a Win16 or Win32 only maintenance coder, sure you are not going to have any interest in this.
You will be sweating the details of "Code Cleaning MFC/ATL Applications for 64-Bit Intel Architecture" as described in this tome of low-level changes to be individually applied throughout all Win32 code when updating to a 64-bit post-90s apocalyptic world:
http://www.intel.com/cd/ids/developer/asmo-na/eng/columns/performance/167744.htm
If you love that kind of programming, more power to you.
If someone else already has a cross platform application, or they are planning on writing one, then the solution described in the article could work fine for them. In fact, since the same compiler and IDE runs on both Linux and MS-Windows, it might work better.
They could use Eclipse CDT on Linux to develop their portable core logic, and work with essentially the same tool set to run their application on MS-Windows.
On Windows, they can do lots of things. Any code module that is C++ standards compliant & portable than can compile using VC++ and use its debugger. Alternatively, they could write unit, use manual test plans for integration tests, insert intelligent logging, and use consistency-checks or assertion mechanisms in their code.
Also, you might be overlooking custom servers, web services, etc. Those do not use a GUI. MFC is a GUI framework, so it is not relevant to programmers doing those things.
You're not the only programmer in the world, you know. - nguyendhex, on 04/23/2008, -0/+0How to port my C++ project that was developed by VS on Windows to Linux?
- JohnnySoftware, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1@berwiki: "When Eclipse runs C# code for .Net 2.0 (and now 3.0) code, then I MIGHT consider switching."
Eclipse does have a little bit of C# support for it available from third-parties.
http://www.improve-technologies.com/alpha/esharp/
http://www.gotmono.com/docs/ide/eclipse.html
If C# is an open, non-proprietary standard, then there should be at least one .NET 2 or 3 version of an IDE out for it someday. When you get right down to it, that is a big part of the point of having them in the first place.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_Sharp#Standardization
According to ECMA, it is a standard - so maybe there will be one that satisfies you someday.
By the way, one of the really cool things you might not have noticed about the posted article is that nowhere in it does the word "C#" occur.
The article just came out this week, it does not propose that you "port" ten year old C/C++ code to Eclipse, and neither its authors or this poster made any claims about Eclipse and C#.
If all you are interested in is C#, then you are not in the intended audience for the article OR this post. And the commenter you are replying did not actually _say_ anything about C#. One of the lists of statistics he listed merely has one line in it down near the bottom that says that C# has managed to capture 3 percent of the market to date (November 2006).
As for the mention of Linux in the comment, you replied to with "Developers do not 'favor' linux" - the guy simply quoted the results of a survey that quantified that for the first time in 7 years, software developers surveyed plan to be doing more Linux than MS-Windows.
If you have an emotional reaction to that you have some mighty sensitive buttons on your interface to the world.
Also, go back and look at the comment you replied to and chase the link that this commenter furnished. The commenter himself did not say "developers favor Linux" - that is the title of the article he quoted.
He is not making an assertion, he is just citing the title of something he quoted from.
If facts bother you so much, just avoid them, fix them, or suggest a solution - do not complain how reading them annoys you. That is a self-inflicted wound and not a bibliographer's fault.
I think there is a book somewhere that says, "if thine eyes offend thee, then pluck them out". - JohnnySoftware, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1I think the gist of your comment is that there is a transition from proprietary/closed solutions to open source solutions.
I do not think that people buried your post "despite" how much effort you put into it. I think the people who buried it did so _because_ you did. They do not want other people to see the facts, or at least programmer-survey and technology-usage statistics, that are in it.
You simply made two mild and notably well-backed up statements, and cited relevant stats & their sources.
People who appreciate the data you cited were probably drawn to this digg post by the existence of the words "Eclipse CDT" in its title. People who attacked your reply were probably drawn to this digg post by the existence of the words "Visual Studio C and C++" in the title.
As for relevancy, anyone who looks at the title/subject of this post and the data in your reply will find more relevance to it in what you wrote than in their "critiques" of what you wrote.
I hope they imbue the software they write with sturdier logic than they threw at you yesterday. - Surreal, on 10/12/2007, -5/+4First off,
You guys need to stop digging down comments simply because you don't agree with someone's statement.
Secondly, I've never had a problem with VS2005 crashing, however it sounds like people need to make sure they have the latest patches. - Surreal, on 10/12/2007, -4/+3Naio21,
Maybe not anti-MS, just linux-centric. You act as if MS is the only OS out there.
Secondly, I still agree with your post though, all this will do is create the typical flame wars. -
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