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87 Comments
- Solis, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2This is why I dropped out of CS. I can't even manage Algebra 1. Me and math just do not get along. Learning math is like learning a whole new language (I had to drop my Spanish classes too).
And to the person that said math gets easier with age, I beg to differ the opposite. Trying to learn math at 24 in my opinion is considerably harder than trying to learn math at 14. You have an entire free school system to support you there at least. - hammerattack, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Of course, there's an even bigger point: We in America make math hard. I mean it - we teach mathematics as a series of abstract concepts which are related through their own secret language. By the time you get to optimization problems in any discipline, you've forgotten that mathematics are a practical tool for modeling the real world. Quite honestly, it took a foreign-born instructor at a community college for me to learn to love calculus, have fun, and actually learn the material.
- barbobot, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1i've said it before, and ill say it again, dont do cs for the jobs, do it because you love cs, people doing this stuff just to get a job really irritate the hell out of me.
- dejag12, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1im in high school and if im strugling in algerbra 2, im Screwd? Yah I is.
- truk, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I’m about to finish my CS degree, and I’ll admit I’m struggling with the math classes. But I’ll also say that as you take the math classes and the higher level CS classes you do see the relationship between them. A lot of people have pointed out that most programming jobs don’t require that much math knowledge or experience, but most programming jobs don’t really need a CS degree either.
Generally if you work for a company writing normal business software, like middleware or GUI front-ends or web interfaces. You are using existing APIs to do the complicated stuff like managing the graphics on the screen or managing the low lever system/database stuff. If you work for a real software company where you have to write the libraries that provide those APIs and you have to understand the math that makes them work. It’s really the difference between using the technology and creating it, and I hope that when I graduate I can make the transition from user to creator.
Unfortunately, there are a lot more business app development jobs than there are for “real development”, so most CS majors end out working for mega-corps coding business apps instead of working on truly cool stuff. - ipzo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I've got a BS in Comp. Sci. and a fairly recent MS in Comp. Sci. & Engr., and 15 years work experience. Most of us rarely use calculus or higher math once we are out of school. I would say we use algebra a lot, discrete mathematics sometimes, but rarely calc or diff-Q.
I have friends in other fields like EE and they also report not using a lot of math.
Maybe it is time to split CS into theoretic CS programs and applied Software Engineering programs? What physics is to EE, CS is to Software Engineering. Both are needed, but we just happen to need a lot more engineers than scientists. - mojaam, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1There's also the outsourcing problem to consider. As I read in plenty articles, a lot of low-level computer jobs are being outsourced/replaced. Therefore I guess in order to grab a spot in the field, you have to have sufficient knowledge which means more math...
Also, a tip for those incoming freshmen, the placement tests sucks ass if you are a bad test taker like me. So make sure to take it serious, it determines what class you have to start off at for some colleges (like mine). I am starting at College Algebra and taking PreCal next sem, pretty easy classes and refresh memory + strengthen math base so it's not all bad. - pythro, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1If you don't use the math you learn in your real world job it will at least of conditioned your brain to a higher level of thinking.
- mikeon, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0math is killing me, I took calculus I and Physics I w/ Calculus and got D in both classes. I'm a sophmore right now and for spring semester of 06 i'm switching over to business information systems.
I came into computer science from highschool with the wrong idea of what it was all about and now I know. *sigh* - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0the math CS majors take are all easy math.
- farbanti, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0It can really help in the real world. Once you have done as many alogrithm run-time proofs as I have, you'll start to change the way you code. Anyone can make the code work. A CS degree helps you do it the right way.
- truk, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0mojaam- It's not just the low-level jobs that are being outsourced. A lot of the Indian folks who are taking our tech jobs have masters degrees in CS and are actually more qualified than a lot of the people they are taking the jobs from. From a business standpoint its hard to choose hiring an American with a BS degree over outsourcing to an Indian with a MS degree when the Indian will work for 1/6 what the American will. I'm not justifying it, especially since I'm going to be one of those Americans with a BS degree, but I understand the logic.
- stokestack, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I'm going to program in Spanish instead of using math.
- lineman, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0As someone else noted, you don't HAVE to have a CS degree to be a programmer. But to be a computer scientist, you have to have some serious math.
- saichele, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I've found that years of programming experience have conditioned my brain to break down and solve mathematical problems much more efficiently than I ever could have prior to learning to program...
- haxr, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0So math is definitely required to succeed in college as a CS major, but what about as a programmer? Do programmers need to master these math skills in order to be good coders?
- avgbody, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0To tell the truth, most of my math courses were a waste, you don't need to know Calculus I, II, III, Differential Equations for programming. Probablility, only need the basics in that. Matrix theory and Linear Algebra if you are going to make video game engines and other 3D graphics programs. I think the most helpful courses might deal with truth logic (boring, but simple). I don't see a need for more. (of course i didn't read the whole article, to lazy for that. :) )
- avgbody, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0There should be some more math classes like finite, and descrete mathematics. And their should be some type of math that deals with relational algebra at least some where in there also. Gesh
- mogdor, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Yeah that sucks, that's why I got a MIS degree instead. The hardest math I had to take was applied math (calculus I), not too much of a pain. It's cool, my degree lets me boss around the CS majors who have more technical know-how than I do, LOL.
- lineman, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0From what I know, there may be some truth to that. Other countries, particularly Japan, teach math in a different order than we do and end up with students going further quicker and retaining more.
- _HAM_, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0"What a broad, baseless generalization.
Lets face it, it all depends on what you plan on doing with a CS degree."
I'll give you that, but for only one reason. Not everyone going into CS wants to be a computer scientist. They might just want to be programmers, scripters, or operators.
Programming has little to nothing to do with Math. Hell, it has little to nothing to do with Computers. But computer science has vitrually everything to do with math. And higher level math majors will end up needing to program. The is a marriage between math and computer science. But the computer science is much more dependant on the math, than the math on the computer science. - lineman, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0That's like the mistake people make going into engineering. Engineering is or recently was the top major for freshmen males and most of them picked it because the pay was so high. Then they figured out the math was killing them and there weren't that many jobs anyway.
- foxhoundadmin, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0forgive my spelling errors. i'm a spell-check kinda guy! :P
- iliketurtles2, on 11/20/2008, -0/+0So true - I'm at Durham Uni (British University of the year), and the level of maths required for the course is simply phenomenal
- ecurbed, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Okay I am really getting scared now I am a freshmen and I am going to major in computer science because I want to program video games or go into the bioinformatics field, but I am not that good in math ( I am not scared of math but I have a dislike for it and I'll do it if I have too) so what should I do?
- rosemat2, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0failed calc twice...not cs major anymore :(
- Stopher, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I am currently finishing my last CS course and it was pretty math heavy. Calc3 was rough but I got through it. Some of the math like discrete was actually pretty useful for thinking about algorythms but I don't think I'm going to make much use of Calc3. I did kinda wish there was more programming but it is what it is. You get a general set of tools. I think a person with a CS degree can pick up a new language a bit quicker than someone from a technical school.
- colebarnes, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0If you just want to be a "programmer", read a few books, take a couple of tests, and get a certificate from Microsoft or Sun.
I'm but a lowly programmer by day with a Computer Engineering major and CS minor. I rarely use any of what I learned in school at work.
However, in my spare time, I do my own hardware/software projects (like audio signal processors and the software to interface with them). In those cases, I use my old calculus and differential equations notes on an almost daily basis. - lineman, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Exactly
- MrLobster, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0The typical database programming jobs that computer scientists get in the real world require little more than decent algebra skills. Programming graphics and science applications, on the other hand, the stronger the math skills the better.
- HeapAlloc, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0"The intro CS classes should cover over the demands of programming video games."
Clearly you don't know what you're talking about. Into CS classes give you basic - and I mean simple - programming skills. A true 3D graphics course will be a marriage of programming, linear algebra, calc, among others. Big payoff if you can hack it - lots of fun. - lineman, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0IT, IS, or something along those lines. Or you could become a secretary.
- 4ZN-1NV4ZN, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0oh *****, uhh what do i major in if i want to work w/ computers?
- xamox, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0That's why I'm a Software Engineering Major! I'm so sick of CS freshmen saying, "I want to program Video Games", that's all they think it is, playing games.
- macenthe, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I cannot emphasis how true this is. If all you want to do is install and support apps for a living then CS Major is NOT for you. My experience as a CS major was that the vast majority of classes required good experience in logic and mathematics in general.
- tonyellard, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Got my CS degree at Webster University (not necessarily known for it's CS program). The only math I had to take was a course called Math for Computer Science. This was more of a logic course than anything, focusing on things like truth tables, formal logic, logic gates, etc.. I went on to take 3 other formal logic courses.
- ImaFraud, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0By the time I entered college, the extent of my mathematical ability was AP Calculus and I already new far more about computer programming than what covered in the major.
When I did my undergrad in C.S., I was required to take Calculus and Analytic Geometry I, II and III also, I had to take Discrete Math, Probability and Statistics and Linear Algebra... All a complete waste of time.
My time would have been better spent exploring computer programming... not math.
- mathie, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0That's why at University of Waterloo, School of CS is in Department of Math and I graduated with a BMath degree. There is a distinction between Computer Science (software, math) and Computer Engineering (hardware, physics) http://www.uwaterloo.ca/
- NathanWynn, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I have a CS degree, and I got a minor in Math. Go figure.
- soulfire, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0The intro CS classes should cover over the demands of programming video games. Then students would be more familiar with the math, physics, and long work hours associated with programming games. That will be a wake up call for them.
- potterlu, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Hi all,
Mathematics may have a role in computer science, but as a person with a computer science degree, I can honestly say that the majority of math you learn in university has somewhere between zero and no practical application once you get out into the real world (which is what the vast majority of CS majors appear to do). - MrKickass, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I wanted to be a Computer Science major, but when i realized how flood the degree is I went into electrical engineering. I suggest if you really want to get a job in the computer industry get a degree in something else and minor in computer science. It makes you look more diversified.
- Zabbawack, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0This is why I am now a business major!
- jaoshun3, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Now on the path to a masters in mathematics, I am realizing I am not in the major for learning math, but how to think. I have found that I often do not enjoy learning unless it is a type of learning that makes me change how I think. Mathematics and computer science provide this opportunity. They complement each other very well. In-fact the deep understandings of the concept of function are embedded in ideas of object oriented programming. There are numerous if not endless connections between the two fields.
I encourage all math or computer scientists to challenge themselves to learn new ways of thinking. I am not sure if I am alone on this, but discrete math seems to be an area that relies heavily on the development of cognitive abilities. I recommend combinatorics, graph theory, and linear programming classes to all in pursuit of creating more mental strength. The ammount of satisfaction that one might get from having a program run error free on the first attempt (never happened to me, I have heard its great), is mirrored in the discoveries in these classes. - jcostom, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0The root of this problem is American culture. Here in the US, it's considered ok to "not be good at math", or to just simply say, "I don't like math." However, on the flip side, you'd be labeled a moron if you said, "I'm not good at history."
"When are we ever going to use this?" Hmm.. How about every day of the rest of your working life? You may not be deriving the quadratic formula daily, nor will you prove Lagrange's Theorem each day, but you will need to THINK LOGICALLY in order to work.
As for the math == memorization comments above, you must have mistaken math for something else, like history. Math is all about learning how to think. Given a set of circumstances & a problem to resolve, arrive at a resolution.
Oh and by the way, you cry babies think Calculus is hard? Bah, you've seen nothing. Spend a semester in Abstract Algebra, where you have to prove all those things you assumed back in Algebra class, or Complex Analysis, which is like Calculus, but on the complex plane, and again, you have to prove everything you do along the way. - matts0344, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Well I'm majoring in electrical and computer engineering, and I need quit a bit of math too, but honestly, I think college math is much easier than my engineering classes.
I have to take Calc I,II,III,diffeqs,discrete math, & probability. - theLimit, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Hard to imagine that learning to think like a machine that only understands mathematical functions would require understanding basic math yourself. And yes, I consider calculus pretty basic until you start combining it with physics, but string theory and AI routines aren't included in your run-of-the-mill CS degree.
- antoniojvr, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I went the other way: I have a BS in Applied Mathematics with a concentration on programming. I found that CS logic goes hand in hand with Math. It's just a matter of not being lazy and studying.
- eng69, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0potterlu pretty much nailed it. I struggled a lot with hte math in computer science. I can see how some of it relates to computer science, but in no way helps most people in their job.
- codejedi, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0It's been 10 years since I've been in college and that course curriculum looks the same. Considering how things have changed in 10 years, I'd say that needs to be updated. It has always puzzled me that real database courses are not part of the core curriculum. I think the university I went to had one semester course on database. I'd venture to say that at a majority of programming jobs are database gigs.
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