What is Digg?132 Comments
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2T Career Advice #2243:
Don't get a cert, get a job. Start with helpdesk if you can, get into PC support or whatever. If your really good you can soon be a pro windows or unix guy as your skills and experience increase.
The only thing that counts for real career longevity and good pay in IT is DEMONSTRATED skills(on the job, not on a test) and years of experience.
Certs are lame schemes by the vendors like Microsoft etc, to take more of your money. Any manager I would want to actually work for would put very little value in them. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Oh yeah. Hot jobs right now are: Security, Database, and Java in that order. Notice there is NOTHING to do with Microsoft Windows in that list.
**Avoid** Microsoft Windows based career paths if at all possible, pick Oracle, Linux etc.. You can't throw a chicken nugget back over the counter to the fry area at McDonalds without hitting 3 Microsoft Windows professionals.
Let me repeat that, AVOID anything Microsoft, the market is flooded and your just competing with people who are only half as good as you, fake it half the time, but have the "certs" and get the same money and respect at work.
Focus on an area that you can really develop some actual skills in that make you stand out from others.
Consider storage management, and mainframes as well, two areas where it requires a high level of professionalism and pays that way, and the exsiting workforce is gettting older and older and a shortage is on the way. - HanSolo69, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2i'm getting ready to get my A+ cert. currently i work at Panera Bread Co.
and i make $7.25/hr - kasperoid, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Started out doing financial software development about 13 yrs ago for 45k/yr (with a BS in CS)... worked on NeXT, Smalltalk, and now Java/J2EE... PC, Mac, Solaris and Linux.... working mostly on large scale risk management systems... stayed in the industry without getting too involved on the finance side and now (at 35) have more of a management/architecture role... 250k/yr
On the topic of degrees, I have to say that from what i've seen, experience and intelligence go a lot further than degrees and certifications. I have interviewed many candidates that had all the "proper" certifications who couldn't design a triangle given three sides. On the other hand, I have interviewed many candidates w/o certification that have real world experience... (they would have no trouble designing the triangle). - plex, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1We should be posting...
What degrees are worth it and which are worth less than the paper they are printed on? - crpietschmann, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1One thing that is messed up about these kinds of surveys is that they don't factor in year of experience or education.
- Phantastica, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I'm in the Visual Effects business. It's not quite IT, but I'm working in Linux all day and do some scripting and shader writing (C). $125,000 year at 26 with a three year college diploma in graphic design. There are a lot of guys in this business with CS degrees though, doing quite well. If you're a strong artist, but have strong tech skills too then it's definitely a good industry to be in. Even if you just have tech skills, there are several companies with large in-house software departments.
- onefish2, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Too many kids on this site. Here is an adult answer. I am 37 years old. Been in IT for about 10 years. Self taught. No College. I am a Senior pre-sales Systems Engineer making about 130K for a major software company. Before that was at Compaq/HP IBM. Before that was at KPMG.
Employers want experience and hands on mot certs. I have a ton of certs but have not gotten any in the past 3+ years.
And let me tell you... I broke my ass to get to this point.
So I would say that I am doing well in IT And I could be doing better. - cphuntington97, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I knew college wasn't for me but all of my sage advisors encouraged me to continue with it.
Now I'm completely buried in debt. I'm trapped. I have to make a lot of money now.
The moral of the story is, TRUST YOURSELF. It's hard to ignore sage advice, but only YOU know what is best for you.
If you decide to try "winging it," the worst that could happen is you end up in retail. If you decided to try "college," the worst that could happen is hundreds of thousands in loan debt, and you're still working retail.
See which is worse? - ironmonkee, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I am 27, left the military after 8 years (USAF...C-130 aircrew member...loadmaster for those in the know) to return to school to complete my degree in MIS, and have one year left until I am finished. I recently was hired on in an entry level position at a regional hospital where I live working at their help desk making $10.50 an hour plus differential for nights and weekends (which I work since I am still attending school full time). I figured I just killed the biggest Catch-22 out there for college grads-getting experience and my degree at the same time. It definitely is not all what you know, though. Motivation, teamwork, and an ability not to ***** up the King's English when communicating with another person all help in landing a position and allowing folks to move up. I have only been there three months and I've been asked to help out on some projects that have been able to get me seen by folks in positions where, after school, I could definitely move up. Those things may sound cliche, but people repeat them for a reason: because it's true.
While on the subject of school, I see/hear folks all the time say that you don't have to go to college/technical school to get a good job. While it is true that learning this stuff on your own will still allow you to land a gig somewhere, school (and college specifically) does give a person an upper hand. It shows discipline, commitment, and the fact that you can apply yourself to learn. Alot of times, it even shaves off time you'd have to have work experience for. Read some applications: you may have to have 5 years of experience in a position (or more in some cases) where as Joe College over here only needs to walk in to it straight from the frat house. College also gives other benifits such as networking. Sorry to burst your bubble, Mr. Idealist, but the saying "It's not what you know, it's who you know" is true. Alot of folks get jobs because they knew someone who somehow got their foot in the door for an interview when they normally wouldn't have. So while you don't have to go, don't downplay someone with a undergrad degree because you don't have one. I say why work harder when you can work smarter? Go to school. It won't hurt. Besides, chicks in dorms are hot. Who could pass that up? Well, a gay man, but that's not the point. I say go to school, work hard, be disciplined, show an interest in what you do (which I do and I enjoy it), and never hesitate to ask if you can do something more (if you can do it in the first place that is.) Some of these thoughts may have been echoed earlier, but adding one's own two pennies to the bank is what this is all about. Enjoy. - Kirkus, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1After 5 years of programming I'm only now making $50k/year. I started out at $24k/year. I checked out the average salaries on monster.ca (canadian site) and my numbers are around the average. I'd love to be seeing those numbers, but it appears Canada has lower salaries for those in IT.
- swankboy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I went to college for four years for Fine Art. I never graduated. I made $10-15k per year the first to years after college. Then I made about $30k working in a law office. The last 5-6 years I've spent as a web designer and now I make $60k. I'm 30 and I still don't have a degree or any certs. I'm just good at what I do. That goes much farther than education with no talent/skill to back it up. That's why these little salary surveys are *****. When I'm totally comfortable financially (almost done paying off college bills and loans) I'll probably go back and finish my degree just to do it, but I highly doubt I'll ever go back to college for anything profession related. My next hope is to be restoring cars for a living by the time I'm 40. I plan on teaching myself that as well. Have a passion for something, learn it and live it for a few years until you know all you can and you will be rewarded eventually. I hate to say it, but now I can sort of coast and make as much money as I can for as long as I can stand doing what I'm doing and then I should be able to afford to move on and go to the next thing.
- doomsquirrel, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Interesting commentary. But for the people saying how much you made when you were 16 or 21 or whatnot: This doesn't offer any perspective if you don't mention how old you are NOW. There's at least 3 or 4 of you in this thread.
At any rate - my opinion is that foregoing the degree can net you some short-term gains. You'll get more experience than your scholastic counterparts and you'll get better jobs in the next decade. But for those of us concerned with our career potential two, even three decades from now -- I want the foundation that a degree is going to give me. I also want the contacts and networking. Meanwhile I'm also working a full-time job to keep up on the experience end. I'm going to be less efficient in each for half a decade, but this just may provide me with the staying power I need 20 years from now.
My dad's friend was making 70k+ a year 10-20 years ago as a Network guy. He's now loooking for tier1 helpdesk jobs (which will net you - barbobot, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I like seeing the comments of the people getting certified, let me let you in on a little secret, certs mean nothing to anyone who knows anything.
- NSXROX, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Can't believe all these people wasting their time on certifications. What a scam.
- master_of_fm, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I have a job as part of the help desk for a large electronics distributor and I make $50000 a year with full benefits for me and my wife, before getting this job I worked in a crappy retail computer store for 4 years getting paid less than half of what I make now. Before getting my new job I got my MCDST (Microsoft Certified Desktop Support Technician) but what really got me my job (according to the person who hired me) was my communication skills, being able to talk with and deal with people, and I got these from over 10 years of retail work. My certification didn't get me my job, but it also didn't work against me. Basically unless you are supremely talented you gotta pay your dues, it took me over a year of active searching to get the job I have now
- fli7e, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Hate to tell you guys, but "webmaster" is not exactly what most professionals consider an IT job. "Webmaster" falls under business/marketing/arts.
That's like having a cashier at Wal-Mart say they are in IT because their job involves using a computer.
No flame intended, but no webmaster is going to pull down more than 40-50 a year unless they are part of the team running, say, Amazon.com. - gunbuster, on 10/12/2007, -0/+132yo working full-time as a software architect/team lead in one of those big companies. Base at 105k w/ ~10% target for bonus. Also been a contractor before for a relatively specialized project. That was nice, I was doing about $100/hr and billing about 220 hours/month. Then the product got bought by a competitor and basically taken off the market. My degree is in economics and got into IT working on Wall Street back in the day. A degree isn't absolutely necessary, but it does open up some doors that would otherwise take a lot more beating on. For example, I got recruited into one of the training programs for one the major Wall Street firms. The training was not particularly useful, but the network you build was invaluable.
Still, one of my co-workers.. her son never graduated college and currently earns about $10M/year w/ his own business.
One hint for you up and comers -- really focus on developing those "soft" skills. At the end of the day, the trend is still to hire 3-4 offshore workers to do the heavy lifting. It's the people who can lead, organize and manage that bring value. If you do not have these soft skills to offer, you had better hope you have a niche skill that is not readily exportable! - ubermusiq, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0OK...65k for entry level webmaster? I've never heard of that...ever. I've never heard of even 50k for "entry level" anything tech. There must be a very loose definiton of entry level.
I do ALOT of webmastering and design for my company, but I also have marketing savvy, so I have to develope websites that not only "work", or be stable, but I have to drive traffic and make sure the site converts.
I am 26, I went to tech school for about 10 months and learned some basic Oracle, VB, ASP, and HTML. I got my first job in Florida doing webdev in ASP and some VB at 21 years old for 30k.
I had to pick up alot of stuff on the way too, like Photoshop, various scripting, PHP and the like.
I currently make, roughly with bonuses, $47,500 - salmonmoose, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0$38(AU) an hour as an animator (Technical Director), No qualifications, or experience :) AND I get to claim games / DVDs and movies as legitimate tax deductions :)
- dtbaker, on 10/12/2007, -0/+019 year old with a degree in IT from bond uni. major software dev / networking. got cisco cert.
done the helpdesk thing at uni, and during high school.
working for large gvmnt crew integrating and creating software for medical stuff towards the end of last year, word of mouth spread and now im up to my arm pits in creating custom apps (mostly web based) and using cheap off the shelf stuff to make things work for ppl (ie: box that sends sms to owner of machinery when it stops over night).
now im doing web dev + server admin for a company with 400 clients.. not what i want to do but getting up my experience so i can move higher.. maybe database / network security.
the degree helped.. if not for the education it was the contacts and experiences. we were constantly working on external projects and the lecturers were always passing us extra 'real world' work, like creating clusters, setting up proxy servers, ms sbs, etc..
but sure i have more experience than most of my peers... but who's gonna hire a 19 year old ?
*waits to get old* - menace303, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0"These salary "what you should be making" are always over the actual market values..."
Totally agree. These surveys come out once a year and they are soooo unrealistic. Call up someone and ask how much they make. Is that "webmaster" going to admit they're only making 28,000/yr or are they going to say "oh I make 50k/yr." seriously. - ljholland, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0A couple of points....
If it's possible, find a job where you might get a DoD security clearance. The demand for cleared IT people is intense. It may take a couple of years to obtain but it's a sure way to add $$$$$ and you have significantly better job security.
On certifications...I'll have to agree - many aren't worth the paper they're printed on (especially Microsoft). When I hire sys admins, I usually consider real experience much more important. However, there are a few exceptions. Java and Oracle. (especially true if coupled with a clearance). Oracle DBA and Java people w/web experience and clearances typically make six figures.
Finally, one certification that IT pros (10 years of experience or more) should seriously consider if they're doing any sort of management or are getting ready for that next "big move" - get a Project Management Professional certification (PMP) from PMI.org. It's now becoming a real discriminator for management positions - many new contracts require it actually. - ryannemeth, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0graduated in may, started work in august, making 42,000 doing database / system testing, pretty much the work a well trained monkey could do.
- jnani, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Fwiw, as I've not seen an academic viewpoint in this thread: I'm an IS professor, involved with both our students and the employers, and I'm confident that getting a four-year degree isn't a waste. All the mad skillz in the world aren't going to get you past the managerial glass ceiling. And it's management skills that earn you job security in later life. Easy to replace a mid-40s programmer of X language, much harder to replace that same person with business knowledge and people skills. And college, imho, regardless of the degree, does help develop a stage for those skills.
43 years old, no kid here. - gman_86, on 10/12/2007, -0/+055k a year in my first job as a web developer/designer/programmer. I have a diploma in network engineering (?) and no other certifications, not even high school. I dropped out of school at 13 and worked as freelance web developer.
So in most instances experience > certifications. I also highly suggest marketing yourself as the cutting edge of technology. Learn and understand XHTML/CSS/AJAX/XLST/*some scripting language* and how they can integrate into Java/whatever frameworks. Pursue new technology developments with passion, be ahead of the game and you'll come accross favourably for a number of reasons. - jikl546, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Jaws is VERY correct
- GrFxGrL, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Working for Intuit, with a Masters in Comp Sci, and MCSD and MCAD certified, I was the only woman in the MIS department with huge responsibility, and I got paid less than $31K a year. When I complained I was told, that's too ***** bad. It's pathetic. I made more as a tattoo artist ($125 - $150K a year) working 4 days a week while I was going to college. Now I can't even pay my student loans 'cause I can't get a decent paying job the market is so bad. I'd rather work in customer service or tech support, where I can at least make $15 - $20 an hour, than busting my ass for $13 - $14 an hour in IT.
It's really pathetic. And if someone tells me that outsourcing jobs isn't partially involved I'll just scream. - Solis, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Only $50k a year? Oh yah, I really feel sorry for people making only 50k a year. Greedy mother *****.
- jaybo2099, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0CS major in the early 90's. Hated it and dropped out. Joined Navy. Did IT work for 8yrs in Navy. Saw the massive amounts of money being made in civilian sector and decided I wanted my piece of the pie. Wow. Guess when the IT bubble decided to pop? Yep. When I decided to leave the Navy. Couldn't get a decent job anywhere. I now regret not having the degree. My advice? Get the degree, certs, whatever...while working your way up. They open doors. In an ideal world it would be all about just the experience, but this is the real world. I now work in the Network Group for a large city making $50k(US).
- teknophil1ac, on 10/12/2007, -0/+031 years old, MIS degree, LPIC 1 & 2 & Solaris SysAdmin certs. 1995-1997, started at $38k on a helpdesk, eventually bumped to $48k. 1998-2000, contracted as a Solaris admin for $68-70k. 2000-now survived the dot-com bust working as a Linux admin and am currently making $82k. I've rarely ever been asked if I had certifications.. all interviews involved proving my knowledge w/hands on work. ..live in northern virginia.. expensive.
- JAWS, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Lemme tell you a story...
A good friend of mine (same age) and I both did post secondary. He did the equivalent of IT at the time (early 90's) but dropped out after 7 mo. I finished a few degrees (non-IT, though I now teach graphic design at high school). He got a few crappy jobs in call centers at first, then managed to get a decent enough job working IT with a salary in the 30k range (CDN). He lost his job after 2 yrs. with downsizing and he has only now JUST (4 yrs later) gotten a real IT job again with Cognos. He's back to making 30k but no senority, and he's 33 like me. I finished my university degrees (though for teaching h.s. multiples are not needed) and now make 61k. I'm not bragging, rather more importantly making a point to those people saying that college is not important, yes it is. Even if you don't 'take the right degree', it's the point that any piece of paper will let you get further along all things being equal.
My $.02 CDN - n3tw0rk@dm!n, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Degree in MIS from a state school, MCSE, Linux+, A+, BCSI certified. 26 yrs old. Making a whopping $14/hr doing support... used to make 50k doing Systems Engineering/Network Administration though.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0These salary "what you should be making" are always over the actual market values... kinda like cars. Here's what I make:
$60,000/yr - QA Manager (high tech firm in Seattle, not Microsoft) - day job
$70,000/yr - At-home webmaster off of my Google Ads
So my total is $130,000/yr, even though I should probably be making $90,000/yr at least at my current day job. - aluminumpork, on 10/12/2007, -0/+08 bucks an hour my friends, nothing quite like Technical Support for a major hotel management company. Of course, I'm only 18. I guess you have to start somewhere.
- jnorris441, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I'm 24 with 3 years experience as a web developer and I only make $35K (in Daytona).
To be fair I only have an Associates degree... - spadgos, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I'm 21 years old, still studying undergraduate IT and I got a job doing IT Support and IT administrative duties for the government. AU$55,000 p.a (roughly US$42K). Working 9-5 sucks though - I gave it up for a job doing harder work for less pay (about AU$27,000, US$21K) because I preferred the better hours and working conditions. Having a massive income is great, but it's better to not hate life monday to friday.
- sedgemonkey, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Btw, I don't have a college degree and I make a very good living so don't give up hope if you can't afford high education!
On the other hand, if you can afford to go to college you should definitely do it. There's still quite a few companies that won't even look at you if you don't have a degree in IT.
Comparing salaries across the US let alone the world is pointless... it's all relative. You can buy a 5 bedroom house WITH LAND for $130,000 in Idaho. A one bedroom 648 Sq Ft ***** condo goes for $339,000 in Burbank. Check out realtor.com if you want a reality check. - unk_b, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0ok im just gonna get my A+ and I have a lot of knowledege in windows and microsoft related products, just started using linux and unix, and i want to know if it would be a good idea to get a degree in network security and maintainance.
Would really appreciate your comments - TacitusBen, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0These digg comments read like the personal ads in a newspaper.
I'm 20yr a single white male, American born and living in Europe. My interests include gaming, fine arts, and long walks on the beach. In five years, I plan to know more German.
Learn more about my amazing journey at http://www.danielcole.us/tacitus/final/
and I make -$[A lot] an hour because I'm unemployed and living off student loans. -cheers- - starflyer3000, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0$50K for being a webmaster? I think someone is overestimating (or some webmasters make so much that it skews the results). At the moment I'm making about 28K as a high school english teacher and tech coordinator for our district (about 110 kids, pk-12). I wish I was making $50K.
- fizzeh, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Just gonna comment about Tom from mySpace. He made a website that was a huge hit, and ad supported. Two years later (fox?) bought it for millions. That sounds nice.
- bonedog73, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0One thing all you non college grads are forgeting is that your college degree, while may not help you burst onto the IT scene now, may help you in promotions later in life. Like when your tired of doing the dirty work and wish to move into management. Where the REAL money is. What would suck is to bust your hump all your days and watch those dumb college grads move into management and become your boss. This is where a degree comes in handy. You may not need it now but its something to work on throughout your life.
- Leonffs, on 11/20/2009, -0/+0go to engineering school you lazy ITers.
- 4ZN-1NV4ZN, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0ummmmmm how much is a good pay in IT cuz imma senior in highschool and im thinkin about bein an IT major(that's a real major right?) i thought 50k/year was good but after readin these comments, im having second thoughts. can someone tell me plz? mail me at t3h_4zN_1NV4zN@yahoo.com
- mojaam, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0So perplexing, on one hand, Im hearing nice pay for these fields, then on the other hand theres the whole outsourcing issue.
- Chasuk, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Pay is often/usually geographically dependent I'm 44 years old, I've worked in the computer field for half a lifetime, and I make $8 an hour. But I am living in Moscow, Idaho, where that is a fairly typical wage.
- penny-lane-, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I make $57.11 (australian) teaching 3D modelling at a tech school and I haven't even finished a degree yet
- jj555298, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0This is a VERY informative thread, many many useful comments for someone my age (17).
- Gringo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0From my own personal experience, the market is flooded with people with their MCSE's and MCSA's. I suggest you devote your time and energy in learning a programming language ie C++ or Database, or in some specialty field like security. These people are worth their weight in gold.
There are too many people running around with these Admin Certs and they are driving the salaries down. -
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