What is Digg?233 Comments
- RoboDonut, on 12/22/2008, -5/+130HTML is a markup language, not a programming language. You've got no right to complain.
I've worked with raw XHTML and CSS, and designing a nice looking (and standards compliant) is nowhere near as difficult as some of the problems I've faced while writing C/C++. You don't have to worry about memory allocation and deallocation. You don't need to worry about scope. You don't have to weigh the pros and cons of different algorithms within the context of your application. You don't need to know _any_ math.
Don't even try to complain about how every browser interprets things differently. It's not that hard to write a few style sheets and load them with Javascript or conditional comments. - nerdzero, on 12/22/2008, -2/+93As a general rule, I'd say it depends. Ask a programmer. We'll tell you when you need more hardware :)
- PopcornDave, on 12/22/2008, -1/+87That's exactly why we end up with the bloatware that we have today. Back in the 70's people used to write BASIC in 4K. That's programming, not being sloppy because you have cheap hardware.
- sfrench, on 12/22/2008, -12/+87This seems like bad advice. Imagine a piece of code that makes your application 2x slower. Under this advice, you'd just double your servers and walk away. If you are buying 1 extra server, this makes some sense. But if you are buying hundreds or thousands of extra servers to make up for that slowdown, it doesn't.
- akaCHUCKTAYLORR, on 12/22/2008, -5/+52but programmers are awesomer.... er
- dethl, on 12/22/2008, -0/+44And bad programmers will cost you more in hardware costs by this model. If reading in a small file takes an hour (yes, I've had to rewrite code thanks to this very problem caused by another), you need to find a new programmer, not add more useless hardware to your server farm.
- leandrotami, on 12/22/2008, -1/+41Honestly, reading this from Argentina makes me laugh a bit. I read every day about the concerns of the so-called First World about the global economical crisis, but then I see people that complain because they *only* earn about 10 times more than I doing the same work (that is, programming). Around here the reality is exactly the opposite, I'd say. Hardware is often expensive. My development computer is an Athlon XP 3000 with 1GB RAM, and of course I'm still using a CRT monitor. On the other side, programmers are often quite cheap. A programmer salary is barely enough to pay a rent, let alone luxuries like PSPs, PS3 or Wiis.
I still have the feeling the people of the US and Europe do not really know what an economical crisis really is (at least since WWII). - Fordi, on 12/22/2008, -1/+39>_>
HTML? Go cry, wuss. Spend some time managing pointers in assembly and try your point again. - youannoyme, on 12/22/2008, -0/+33The article specifically addresses this. It talks about spending a certain amount per employee and recouping costs along the way. It directly talks about how good code is necessary in a lot of situations. The point of the article was not to just throw hardware at your problems to make them go away, but that people shouldn't forget a lot of problems can be solved quicker and for less money by a nice investment in machinery. Then the programmers can be free to work on the things that really need their attention.
- strangewill, on 12/22/2008, -2/+33Plus this article assumes that software can scale endlessly on larger/more hardware without issues, which is almost never the case.
Better to program it well then throw hardware at it, rewrite it, throw more hardware at it, rewrite it again... etc. It's an excuse to create ***** software when you say "we can always throw more hardware at it", and typically comes from people that know nothing software wise. - gilty, on 12/22/2008, -0/+30I'll remember this advice the next time I make a video-game. We'll just include some extra hardware along with the DVD.
;-) - nerdzero, on 12/22/2008, -0/+25jaygeeze, an experienced programmer knows "how to program" as opposed to just knowing the syntax for the latest greatest programming language. If you already know how to program, picking up a new syntax is easy.
- strangewill, on 12/22/2008, -1/+22@nmnnotmyname:
I hate when programmers generalize languages like that, while I do _LOVE_ the unrestrained power and freedom of C/C++, all those other languages have extremely important uses.
Nothing pisses me off more in the programming world than a programmer who will NOT use a language that fits a project because he'd rather stick with his _favorite_ language. It's a waste of time and money and shows that you don't really have any skills beyond a weird obsession. - Daumen, on 12/22/2008, -3/+24This article gives some terrible advice because it's focused on reacting and trying to fix things after the program is written. It advocates a just write something that works and we'll worry about all the problems later approach - this will always cost more in the long run whether you fix it with programmers or hardware.
You should design your program to scale from the beginning. Most major performance bottlenecks should not be surprises - they should be obvious at the design stage.
God forbid someone actually take some time to architect, plan, and design a program before jumping in to write it. - quii, on 12/22/2008, -1/+21How surprised I was to see a lot of programming *****-waving going on here.
- silent128, on 12/22/2008, -1/+20HTML = candy land :P i love when web developers think there programmers. When you start writing the source code for your servlets instead of figuring out what image should go were then we can talk about programming. No ammount of hardware is going to fix the fact that you have code that does one thing and you need it to do somthing else.
- browntiger, on 12/22/2008, -0/+18Slow application is normally = badly written, poorly managed application. There aren't many excuses today for slow, crummy apps.
And people comparing cost of software developers are just plain wrong. Add office space, CM's, testers, Q/As, large and very expensive management, marketing, support, bogus CMMi trash that suppose to improve product but all it really does slightly improves process, buy doubling and tripling time to deploy; limiting developers ability to properly address the problem. Not that CMM(I) is an entirely bad thing, just people go way overboard implementing some obscure rule that makes 0% difference and adds days or weeks to cycle, plus "CMMI experts" making sh** up as they go. It is silly, when I say we need to update application to Vista guidelines / multicore support, they telling me to check for workaround, what benefits this change will give to the end users, and that they can not do it now because it would take too much time to document potential impact and assess risks; and useless, waste of space, q/a person is on vacation.
You know why there is very little progress - CMMI. Look how little improvement Microsoft products are - XP to Vista, 2008, Win7.
Because it is cheaper to replace some "look" element than do what needs to be done, like getting rid of DCOM core, add XML services management, replace outdated NTFS, provide modern kernel, that really doesn't need antivirus or antispyware agent because file system rejects improper updates, will not start services, or any applications from %temp% or %user% %recycled% folders, denies cross folder updates, included decent CD/DVD/BlueRay writing support. What we get with Win7 new skin for media player - yeay and fractionally improved kernel. - strangewill, on 12/22/2008, -0/+18Also, it assumes hardware doesn't require upkeep, or an IT guy to manage, troubleshoot, update, etc.
- inactive, on 12/22/2008, -4/+22C/C++ > PHP, XHTML, CSS3, ASP, Perl, Python, Java
I promise, I've used them all and C/C++ is by far the hardest. It's the most low level: You deal with small and hard to find bugs, directly accessing the memory, common networking and multithreading problems, sometimes byteorder issues, character encodings (show of hands: How many PHP coders have had to write UTF converters? I don't think you're going to get that many hands up.) and other hells like deplyoment, platform related issues and dependency hell. Not saying you don't deal with any of these problems in other languages, but when you're in C/C++ it's way harder.
Yes webdesign is made harder by browser compatibility, but a well coded site has less issues. I've only done a few sites and i've gotten my pages down to very few problems without even having to open another browser. - Jinstevens, on 12/22/2008, -2/+20Has the author ever ran a server farm before? Let me tell you how it is from the other side. I've seen some programs so badly written that no amount of hardware you would throw it at it would make it run faster. I'm mean stuff like pressing a single button and bringing back 100 million records from a database hosted in India. Most applications are distributed. They require servers, networks to make remote calls to other servers, authentication pieces (both hardware and software), databases and directories. Just beefing up the hardware for all those pieces won't necessary improve anything. The author is completely naive if you think that a programmer and x amount of hardware are interchangeable. Hardware helps, but it can't solve everything.
- inactive, on 12/22/2008, -2/+19Indeed. "OH NO I MIGHT NOT BE ABLE TO AFFORD A SECOND CAR"
- benologist, on 12/22/2008, -0/+16HTML is the manual labor of the web. They teach that ***** in high schools.
- Fordi, on 12/22/2008, -0/+14Unlikely. When you graduate college, you're more likely to get a year or two of $20k internships before you'll get enough real respect to pull a quality job.
Still, those internships usually rock. - Wildthing, on 12/22/2008, -1/+15Go ask any company that designs embedded chips how much it costs to fab a new chip. Though they're a rarer company that fabs in the US, I think Intel builds a new plant for every CPU they design.
- Hodor, on 12/22/2008, -2/+15a libgrunt is a cheap, low-skill programmer who only calls libraries that other people design / write.
- quii, on 12/22/2008, -0/+12It's amazing how many people seem to have missed this judging from the comments here. It's like people read the headline and went WTF.
- Fordi, on 12/22/2008, -0/+12Ehhh, you'd likely best ask a programmer that deals specifically with distributed systems and scalable software. A libgrunt wouldn't have the best ideas on the matter.
Not implying that you're a libgrunt. Implying that there's a need for specificity. - browntiger, on 12/22/2008, -0/+12This is how we ended up with Mcafee and symantec. Write product now hope that CPUs will be fast enough to run crappy Antivirus product. How did we lived w/o policy orchestrator.....
- inactive, on 12/22/2008, -3/+15bravo !!
- jamesdew, on 12/22/2008, -1/+13I would say that someone who creates the front end only is a web designer, not a web developer.
- quii, on 12/22/2008, -1/+12I am stunned this has +11 diggs.
Where is he talking about web design in that article? - Slade605, on 12/22/2008, -0/+11No, you're a NinjaGod.
- kushin, on 12/22/2008, -0/+11It doesnt matter how many servers you throw at ***** code. If google followed this advice and had ***** programmers and supermicro servers, they would not have been where they are now(maybe they would be like live.com).
- xprojects, on 12/22/2008, -0/+11Dear Argentinian,
A sandwich here at a locally-owned run-of-the-mill diner costs about $8-10 on average. A pound of turkey at the market runs me $9 as well. If you eat two sandwiches a day and drink water from the tap that's $7,000 a year in sandwiches.
Take that for what you will, I know nothing about Argentina but I bet sandwiches are cheaper. Also, the article is referring to 22,000 people out of the 301 million in the U.S.
Love,
Boston - Leprince, on 12/22/2008, -0/+11Welcome to Digg.
- DigitAl56K, on 12/22/2008, -0/+11Well, I would say for most people programming won't approach neuroscience often. However, I work with guys who program video codecs in assembler and have to get the maximum possible performance for different algorithms across various OS's, CPU platforms and media frameworks. These guys more than earn their pay and 99% of the other developers I know could not pick up their work tomorrow and do nearly as good of a job, if they could do the job at all. I know I would struggle.
- camilos007, on 12/22/2008, -1/+11Of course developers cost alot. IT and programming changes at the speed of light. If we fall behind, we're worthless. We need to learn the latest tech and keep up to date every year. There aren't many professions that can say the same thing.
Hell, you could be a dentist, fall into a coma, come out of it 10 years later and still have a great career.
Put that same scenario for a programmer, and he'll be as worthless as a paper clip. - GenericNumber1, on 12/22/2008, -0/+10I couldn't have said it better, strangewill. A truly skilled programmer is willing to use the technologies best suited to the problem. Of course he or she will still have preferences, it's only natural, but a complete unwillingness to use different programming languages is just a pointless waste of time in my opinion.
Writing system software? You could try to use a high level programming language, but it would be a huge hassle... use something low level like C++.
Writing web software? You could use a programming language like C++, but again it would be a huge hassle... use something like Java, PHP, ASP, Coldfusion, etc.
Writing a complicated mathematics application? You could use a newer, hip programming language like Erlang, but why not just use the old, mathematically powerful Fortran?
Writing an MSExcel extension? Sure, you could make a go at it with Java, but why not use C#?
I suppose I'll never be able to understand the glory people feel in bashing other programming languages and putting their own on a pedestal. All programming languages have their limitations, and people should realize that it's okay to explore other technologies... try Lisp - try Haskell, try something new you haven't tried before because it can only make you a better programmer! - Darkhacker, on 12/22/2008, -1/+11Part of the problem is programmers who waste time writing code that is slower than the simpler solution. We've all seen it. A developer wastes an incredible amount of time (perhaps days) writing code that is 100x slower than a couple of function calls to an already available library. There's also the fact that a skilled programmer can write code the first time around that's several times faster than code written by an amateur.
The point is, that in some cases it's cheaper to optimize if the developer knows what they're doing than it is to hire cheap programmers that waste both developer time and increase hardware costs. - jamesdew, on 12/22/2008, -0/+10What if you are programming neural networks,
- jamesdew, on 12/22/2008, -3/+13How is a web developer not a programmer? Someone who does HTML is not really a programmer I agree. But an expert in Java and Ajax who develops web applications is clearly a programmer.
- MaxxusFlamus, on 12/22/2008, -0/+10I don't know if you've realized this-
but 65k is pretty damn high paying for anyone just out of school... - inactive, on 12/22/2008, -0/+9Your first mistake was assuming people on Digg read the stories before commenting.
- Murdats, on 12/22/2008, -0/+9not to sound stupid but what does libgrunt mean? I am assuming something similar to noob or who users libraries or something, but googling the term returns this very digg page (your comment) as fifth so apparently its not that common a term
- werkerholic, on 12/22/2008, -27/+35Web Design != Programmer................ This argument Hardware vs. Software is like saying Hammer vs. Carpenter............buried
- Jinstevens, on 12/22/2008, -1/+9Then you have a bad manager.
You: I reviewed the spec, and this will take 6 months to complete.
Manager: The product manager says the business unit need it done in 3 months. Is there anything that can be done coding wise to shave development time (code reuse, buying an appliance, off the shelf software)?
You: Probably not.
Manager: Could adding another programmer help, just a thought?
You: It may, but she'll be behind the curve since she's unfamiliar with the code library. Bob, who's working on the accounting project could be helpful though. He's familiar with the code since he coded some of the database calls.
Manager: Bob is fully booked, but I'll talk to the project manager to see if he could be freed up for a while. Let's go talk to the project team and see if there's features that can be delay until a second release.
Bottom line: a good manager will help solve the problem instead of just trying to shove all the responsibility back to you. - theone156, on 12/22/2008, -0/+8wtf are you talking about?
- NinjaBull, on 12/22/2008, -0/+8Hi guys, I'm a NinjaBull
- quii, on 12/22/2008, -0/+7I disagree, your view is far too simplistic.
Why should you affect programmers productivity, when you can easily test performance anyway?
It's terrible having to wait for things to load and compile, especially when you are in a state of flow. - inactive, on 12/22/2008, -0/+7Programming is not languages bud. It's a hell of a lot more than that.
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