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Why The Pope Has a Point: Tough Truth on Islam

time.com — His take on Islam, however clumsy, raises tough truths about reason and religion

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  • Arch, on 10/12/2007, -63/+31Pope Palpatine is always right.
    • marvin69, on 10/12/2007, -45/+7You says peoples going to die?
    • mistarojaz, on 10/12/2007, -35/+10ummm, i didnt see anyplace in the article that showed anything to back up the pope's point... according to the headline
    • treelovinhippie, on 10/12/2007, -50/+24I think this whole thing is just another example of religion causing more harm than it does good.

      I mean isn't religion all about respecting everyone of all races, colors and backgrounds? ... and yet the people in different religions hate each other to the point where they feel the need to kill each other... WTF?

      Islam, catholism, whatever religion I think was just started a long time ago by some very entrepreneurial people who figured they could start a cult, recruit followers by targetting their must vulnerable worry (death) and saying "oh if you follow our religion you will go to heaven, but if you don't you'll go to hell".

      Is it just coincidence that all the churches/mosques.whatever of the world are absolutely swimming in cash? ... they have enough money to build massive temples, live in luxury and build catholic schools etc etc. The Pope gets to do a few public speeches, a couple of prayers and he gets to live in absolute luxury.

      Sure they do some good with charities etc, but overall the religions of the world are big businesses.

      I reckon ban religion, create peace.
    • Tricky, on 10/12/2007, -4/+28no, you're talking about Scientology.
    • gmillerd, on 10/12/2007, -17/+7Sorry, you need to go back a long ways before that dude has the right to start throwing stones.
    • nreynolds, on 10/12/2007, -29/+16I don't know what churches you go to, but mine is in no way "swimming in cash." Real religion is basically "If you're a good person, you'll be rewarded when you die." Any religion that claims that everyone except its followers will go to hell is completely unjust. God doesn't care what religion you are (or if you are one at all). All God cares about is whether or not you're a good person.

      I think mainstream religion is stupid (just its beliefs) but it is very important to society. It brings people together (usually) and is beneficial in the sense of charity, etc. (unless you get crazy people in charge).
    • generic109, on 10/12/2007, -28/+9Digg is turning into a hate site. This crap article is just excuse for you hateful ***** to spew. Go to your own f-ed up vision of hell.

      This is directed at the commentators below.
    • malfourmed, on 10/12/2007, -20/+10"Jesus could actually save people from death?"

      "Catholicism is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be ... unnatural."
    • allthewhile, on 10/12/2007, -7/+48"The Pope gets to do a few public speeches, a couple of prayers and he gets to live in absolute luxury."

      The Catholic Church has a huge treasury of valuable objects. Most of them are religious in nature and won't be sold. Much of the Art owned by the Vatican has been donated over the Centuries and are held by the Vatican as a sort of Treasury. Priceless items are priceless because they can't and won't be sold. While the Catholic Church is probably one of the largest owners of land in the world (maybe?), most of what they own are not profit makers. If you check the balance books of most catholic churches, they're not making big money. Churches are huge and grand because they can get huge loans. In short, the church doesn't make a huge profit; it's not effecient as a business and those parishes that are thriving often help make up for those not doing so well. Money from your local Catholic Church doesn't make its way to the Vatican. It was just until recently that the Vatican had it's books out of the red.

      And yes, the pope has huge living quarters, has a summer castle, his own private jet, cars, bodyguards, etc. But if you think he simply does a speech and then fades into the background sipping martinis and watching soaps all day, you're quite mistaken. I consider my life a luxury compared to what it would be to have the burden of being the pope.
    • BullyJack, on 10/12/2007, -12/+69I'm sick of violent reaction to any critical comment of Islamic radicals. It's scary as hell. It's almost time to kick these bastards' arses.
    • gmillerd, on 10/12/2007, -36/+4Unnatural like with little boys for you and the priest that tooled your butt? Gotcha ... know what I mean nudge nudge?

      I hardly see this thread as anything other than the best place to (/) ignore every right-wing ***** in digg. We need more of these troll bait front-pagers.
    • affanjam, on 10/12/2007, -10/+69Prophet Muhammad ordered all Muslims not to harm a single Christian, If they do they are disobeying the Prophet. He says all this in a letter to Christian Monks at St. Catherine Monastery in Mt. Sinai.
      His Letter:
      "This is a message from Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near and far, we are with them. Verily I, the servants, the helpers, and my followers defend them, because Christians are my citizens; and by Allah! I hold out against anything that displeases them.No compulsion is to be on them. Neither are their judges to be removed from their jobs nor their monks from their monasteries. No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims' houses.
      Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God's covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate.
      No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight. The Muslims are to fight for them. If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, it is not to take place without her
      approval. She is not to be prevented from visiting her church to pray. Their churches are to be respected. They are neither to be prevented from repairing them nor the sacredness of their covenants. No one of the nation (Muslims) is to disobey the covenant till the Last Day (end of the world)."
      I am a Muslim and I will follow my Prophet's word, and it is expected of other Muslims to do the same.
      http://www.alsunnah.ca/Monks.html
    • GuyNextDoor, on 10/12/2007, -4/+18To treelovinhippee:

      "Benedict spoke about the need for the West, especially Europe, to reverse its tendency toward godless secularism. He believes that the gift of reason that he cherishes in Christianity has been warped by the West into an absolutist doctrine."

      Yes, let's "ban" religion...what a brilliant idea! The article was talking about people like you.

      This is an inaccurate title for this article though....the title of the Time article was just "The Pontiff Has a Point"...the "tough truth's about Islam" part doesn't belong here.
    • mre5765, on 10/12/2007, -7/+18affanjam:

      http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/9/index.htm#5 :

      "9:5 Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."

    • affanjam, on 10/12/2007, -8/+9@mre5765
      You'll need a qualified person to inerpret that,but its not what it seems
    • fyngyrz, on 10/12/2007, -4/+17So, affanjam, what about aggression against Hindus, atheists, spiritualists... ???

      I've only read English translations of the Quran, and I realize that isn't the best way to try and make sense of it, but what I got out of my readings was that Islam is not a religion of peace, any more the Christianity or Hinduism is -- certainly if there actually is one, the Buddhists have the long-term seat all locked up... and those people don't really have a deity, per se.

      I find the protest-oriented violence of the Islamists in reaction to the Pope's mention that they are violence to be more than a little ironic.
    • Mofassa, on 10/12/2007, -3/+10@mre5765

      While it's true many verses in the quran need context to be interpreted, you still did not invalidate his point. Christians do not fall under the idollators, neither do Jews. I am not saying that the verse can then be applied to say hindus/buddhists etc...but that that verse does not apply to Christianity. The meaning behind the verse you'd have to ask someone who knows/remembers their Islamic history. I stopped being religious in general a while ago, but was raised Muslim - and as such try to stop misinterpretations such as that.
    • omaryak, on 10/12/2007, -4/+9"I'm sick of violent reaction to any critical comment of Islamic radicals."
      There's a difference between criticizing radicalism and the religion as a whole.
    • howli6, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4"But Marge, what if we chose the wrong religion? Each week we just make God madder and madder."
    • Fotograffiti, on 10/12/2007, -6/+5@ nreynolds

      QUOTE - "Real religion is basically "If you're a good person, you'll be rewarded when you die...God doesn't care what religion you are (or if you are one at all). All God cares about is whether or not you're a good person."

      How exactly did you come across this privileged information? Did God tell you? The truth is that you don't have any idea and are just stating your personal beliefs like everyone else. I have one question about your church though. If you only have to be a good person to be rewarded when you die, then why waste your time at church? In this scenario what purpose does church serve?
    • arsenal72, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Poor sense of history?
      The funny part is, the Pope was quoting a Catholic leader from a time when the church was just crawling out of the dark ages, about a hundred years after the 9th very bloody Crusade and a hundred or so years before the Spanish Inquisition where Jews and Muslims were tortured into converting or killed if they refused.

      Selective memory is a powerful thing.
    • labmouse42, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Did anyone even RTFA?
      ---
      In the speech at Regensburg University, he opened a much broader theological exploration by quoting these words of a 14th century Byzantine Emperor: "Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."

      "Perhaps Islamic sensibilities could have been spared if the speech had included a clear indication that the Pope did not agree with the inflammatory words from 600 years ago."
      ---
      This article was saying that the Pope's words were taken out of context.
    • staticneuron, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2The popes words were taking out of context. Even I misunderstood. But that was not due to some radical handing me the news it was due to the brevity of the news I have read in the papers and on the internet.

      "But for Muslim teaching, God is absolutely transcendent. His will is not bound up with any of our categories, even that of rationality."

      The pope sounds more understanding than most of our fellow diggers here. The anger doesn't come from the pope quoting this man but from the indication that the pope agreed with these comments when in actuality he provided a counter arguement.
  • OBKenobi, on 10/12/2007, -47/+18If it hadn't been for Islam and the Communists, Pope Palpatine would rule the world by now. I'm sure he's still upset about that.
    • geekee, on 10/12/2007, -16/+37I believe the Catholic Church was against the war in Iraq. Leave it to liberals to back-stab their allies.
    • Obvioustroll, on 10/12/2007, -11/+11They have no "allies" you either exactly toe their line or your a blood enemy.

      Which is pretty much why most religious people left the democratic party - they couldn't stand the hate anymore, especially from people who would then turn around and lecture them on not blaming all of Islam for the misdeeds of a few.
    • danheskett, on 10/12/2007, -17/+17Regardless of what you may think about religion, the Western "lifestyle" that you enjoy and live under is a result of and only of the modernized versions of the Jude-Christian ethic. There exists no system of governance based on the denial of a greater power that you would like to live under (well that's general, but without substantial exception this is true). Each time such a system based on the denial - agnostic or atheistic - is implemented the result is really terrible.

      You do not need to be a believer in any religion or faith to recognize that the entire social order imposed in the West is the product of a modern flavor of Judeo-Christian spirituality. Even separate from the established practice of religion, the glue of society is codified and enforced under the tenants of that religion.

      Why is that? The ethic installed and followed to varying degrees to present in the West is one of justice, tolerance, and subservience to civil authority. Even when imperfectly applied the core principles provide significantly better standards than that of other formed nations. For example, in truly "godless" (this refers not the lack of a state religion, but the active suppression of religious expression) countries the individual is made subservient by force and force alone. The concept of a social contract which you are born into is not a pervasive idea, and as such, the system is held together only through fear and repression. This cycle becomes only more repressive, stamping out all modes of expression that exceed the anti-religious mandate - art, literature, science, music, etc.

      As for the initial impulse to claim "that's not true, atheists get along just fine without religious types imposing on them" -- this is easily disproved. Even the most basic rights can be denied without repercussion under a strictly secular system. Why is it not okay to kill a person in cold blood to acquire things you desire? On the purely capitalistic level this makes perfect sense. A person is insufficiently utilizing resources, you desire that capital, you are stronger, therefore, you take it. Under such a system when resources are scarce it is perfectly acceptable to kill or cause to be killed to acquire a resource.

      The entire idea of equality before the law and before society, which is a fundamental basis for Western society, is called into doubt. In fact, we are not functionally equal. Some have more talent or more attributes that are desirable for survival. The idea of legal equality is premised on the social acceptance of equality as a right that is inalienable endowed. Atheist societies - say, China, for example do not recognize equality in society or before the law. Even the idea of codifying all the law is not universally accepted. Non-western religious countries - say for example India - struggle to break away from st ratifications that result from the disbelief in equality under a common creator and equality before the law.

      None of this suggests you owe any body anything, or are indebted or ought to be religious. However, recognize that if all Americans come to believe as you do the social order shall continue to trend to the absolute installation of purely "hyper" capitalist society. One in which your life, liberty, and property are in constant peril from those stronger or more aggressive than you, those smarter than you, and those willing to do more than you to acquire what their selfish needs demand. The counter-balance of government interested in preserving equality will be totally diminished from it's already weakened state.

      Functionally, atheists and agnostics are societal leaches - sucking off benefits of the Western Judeo-Christian ethic while denying it's truth and value.
    • Qazzian, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Did you miss out on the protestant reformation?
    • labmouse42, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2@geekee
      Your obvious hate towards liberals is amazing. Why do you hate liberals so?
    • Duffy40, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Hey Star Wars dude, its getting kind of old, we got it, we just don't care.

      Let me see the Pope said that you can't force someone to have faith.

      hmmm, actually pretty open minded.

      well well, what have we here, someone protesting the concept that you cant force someone to have faith, to the point of demanding execution. Ok they have really lost the "we are the religion of Peace" slogan
  • gamer3999, on 10/12/2007, -16/+8oh shut up with the pope ruling the world, does anyone have any sense anymore
  • SpikeLee, on 10/12/2007, -16/+8Um, the comments from the pope do not reflect his views on Islam.
    • masamunecyrus, on 10/12/2007, -5/+31Yes they do. However, his beliefs on Islam were mistaken for the same beliefs as the pope of whom he quoted -- which is that Mohammed is evil and everything he has done has brought suffering. This is not the belif of the pope, however; his real message was that violence in the name of any religion is wrong, and that 'Jihads,' being wars in the name of religion, are also wrong.
  • bgoodknight, on 10/12/2007, -14/+58The truth hurts I guess, that's why they are always so outraged.
    I just love how they are protesting the Pope calling them violent and inhumane by acting inhumane and killing people. Maybe are really are that stupid...
    • shortkid422, on 10/12/2007, -7/+29I love irony...
    • mem2, on 10/12/2007, -28/+3read a dictionary and learn to use the word irony properly. Your use of the word irony is ironic.
    • Tricky, on 10/12/2007, -16/+3wtf?
    • aussia, on 10/12/2007, -11/+5right so... the appropriate action is to say something that will make them angrier thus causing more violence? and then call this "dialogue"?
    • carve, on 10/12/2007, -6/+24'how dare you call us violent! We bomb your church and call for your execution" is not ironic to you?
    • popfrogs, on 10/12/2007, -4/+2You know, given the state of affairs in the Middle East, it seems kinda planned out that the Pope would throw gasoline onto the Islamic state fires. The last thing you want to do as a religious leader is even mention Mohammed, particularly in the context of being wrong or violent. From the outset it seems very irresponsible, but take a closer look and you can see the logic.

      1. Piss the Islamic world off yet again
      2. Increase terrorism
      3. Cultivate an us-vs-them mentality worldwide
      4. WWIII

      I honestly think that the next serious world war is going to break out in the next 10 years. You can only whack the beehive with a shovel so many times before the bees attack full force. It's like the crusades all over again, only this time the weapons are much more devastating and alot more is at stake.

      Can't we, as humans, just not agree to disagree? *****.
  • allthewhile, on 10/12/2007, -7/+65They're calling for his death because he claimed Islam violent. So do they agree or disagree?
  • steeel, on 10/12/2007, -31/+20Imagine a world without religion
    • masamunecyrus, on 10/12/2007, -14/+20@steeel: Image a world that is in chaos. People need authority. Without authority, people run wild. Notice how people act on the internet. Ordinary person + internet = contact with others + anonymous + no one is able to punish said person = a complete ***** who can't control himself.

      Humans can't progress without authority, i.e., religion, but at the same time people's natural behavior of splitting themselves into groups and hating those who aren't in those groups bring a bad name to religion.
    • xpaladin, on 10/12/2007, -9/+5I'll settle for a world where either Daedalus or Helios reign.
    • ronaldst, on 10/12/2007, -13/+5Hitler was working towards that goal.
    • nreynolds, on 10/12/2007, -7/+13@ steeel

      imagine a world in which laws were never created. Hammurabbi's code, the first set of laws, was based on religion. Sure, nowadays we can say that without religion we would still probably have laws, but if religion had never existed, i doubt we would have laws of any kind.
    • steeel, on 10/12/2007, -23/+21If what you are saying is correct, then there should be a high number of Atheists that are going ballistic. This is not happening.

      People need authority? Government is good enough. There is a reason why we no longer believe in Santa. Religion is a fairytale.

      Proving that the Bible is repulsive:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkXOwBIRX7Y&NR

      Proving that nobody can get into heaven:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzzORZhnCao&mode=related&search=

      Prove that Jesus is imaginary in less than 5 minutes:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUj8hg5CoSw&mode=related&search=


      Proving that prayer is superstition:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BH0rFZIqo8A&mode=related&search=
    • sat0ri, on 10/12/2007, -18/+16"Humans can't progress without authority, i.e., religion"

      What a load of crap. Stupid people might function better with religion but keep it to yourself please. I dont want your irrational beliefs and fears governing my lifestyle.
    • javip, on 10/12/2007, -14/+9"religion fosters bad behavior"
      http://www.humaniststudies.org/enews/index.html?id=219&article=7

      for those that think we "need" religion

      good people will do good and bad people will do bad, but for good people to do bad things, that takes religion!
    • steeel, on 10/12/2007, -5/+1Javip: thanks for that link.
    • amaino, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6Those videos were really funny steeel. It is kind of sad that people believe that to be a proof. You cannot describe God as a logical machine as little as we can see humans as logical machines. If this would be true then why are we not predicting wars, scientific break throughs and so on? Don´t give me a ton of BS that we do not have all the variables, that is your faith speaking!

      You come from a faith where everything is explainable, do not try to use your methods of belief on other beliefs!!!
    • amaino, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Yeah I agree, that is a good article javip. Just one thing thou, do not take that as a proof against christianity, even the bible says that it is better to be a non christian then to be kind of a christian. The study should be more relevent if you looked at different communities, where I believe the difference would be the other way around.

      Of course you will have problems when alot of people in "Christian" countries do not understand why things are as they are and only see rules. I at least have a tendency to want to break rules that I do not understand. When in that kind of circumstances things are done in a way that are not thought thru and gives more problem then they should!
    • ccran, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2@steele

      "People need authority? Government is good enough. There is a reason why we no longer believe in Santa. Religion is a fairytale."

      So is government, baby.
    • popfrogs, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2@ronaldst: Actually Hitler *wasn't* working towards that goal. He had a scientology remix under his belt, with himself and the State at the top. Read some history books or even Mein Kampf for some insight. He realized that the most powerful control mechanism is one that eludes reason, such as belief in fictitious beings or things that are impossible to understand. If you think God is always watching you, you won't sin, presumably..same goes with the Germans under the iron fist of the Gestapo.
    • Duffy40, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0It is called western Europe, now that is freeking irony.
  • EtherGnat, on 10/12/2007, -8/+37"Why the Pope Has a Point"

    Am I the only one that was hoping the article was going to be about why the Pope wears a pointy hat?
    • subscribtion, on 10/12/2007, -5/+23Everyone knows the Pope's hat conceals the radio antennae on which he receives the transmissions from God. I don't really think we need an article about common knowledge.
  • anicejew, on 10/12/2007, -17/+11As a jew, I would just like to say this is one of the many times that the digg community has demonstrated that they have an acuity for spotting the truth.
    • generic109, on 10/12/2007, -21/+9As a Jew, you should not embrace comments made by a former Hitler youth who leads a church that was complicit in the Holocaust. Pathetic.
    • mapkinase, on 10/12/2007, -4/+3...in an article written my Israely (this isn't nationality, the last name of the author)
  • marmaduke, on 10/12/2007, -24/+9Christianity is extremely violent as well...
    • Lososaurus, on 10/12/2007, -7/+21Back in the day, yes, but nowadays, not so much.
    • geekee, on 10/12/2007, -6/+12The Catholic Church was aginast the war in Iraq.
    • jasonok6, on 10/12/2007, -3/+10Actually I think you will find it impossible to find anything in the New Testament that condones violence against those...now the old testament on the other hand is a different story. However, the old testament is not Christianity.
    • jasonok6, on 10/12/2007, -9/+5Actually I think you will find it impossible to find anything in the New Testament that condones violence against non-believers...now the old testament on the other hand is a different story. However, the old testament is not Christianity.
    • jjesusfreak01, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7Well, occasionally, but those are isolated incidents, and I would suppose that at this point there would not be any violent actions done by large groups of Christians that aren't immediately censured by the majority of Christian groups. Sure, there are things that I as a Christian don't agree with, and there are things that make me upset, but I have learned that there are things that are alot more important than making sure that politics and policy go your way, and im not about to go killing just to prove a point.
    • mre5765, on 10/12/2007, -5/+0jasonok6: Then WTF does the Christian Bible have the old testament if the old
      testament is not Christianity?

      One thing though: as an athiest, I've have to pick sides, and as far as I can
      tell Pope Benedictine or Jerry Falwell aren't urging their followers into
      mass murder. Muslims kill more athiests than Christians do, at least lately.

      JesusFreak: I don't recall the Catholic church doing crap about the terrorism in
      Ireland in the 20th century. Pope should have excommunicated Ireland and
      Ulster.
  • jjesusfreak01, on 10/12/2007, -5/+34Hmm, here is a tough question...the Pope quotes a guy who says that Islam is bad. Now, what do SOME of the Muslims do? They riot in the streets, scream bloody murder and kill nuns. Who is making Islam look bad now?
  • bilbus, on 10/12/2007, -7/+21haah pointy hat

    awwww so the pope says muslums are violent ... and they burn down churches and kill a nun .... perhaps he has a point?
  • Phocion55, on 10/12/2007, -3/+28I love the "fanatical" reasoning (and I stress *fanatical*):
    "The Pope just bashed Islam as a violent religion. To show our outrage, let's go violently protest, blow up stuff, and kill innocent people. That'll show him."

    Anyone find this hypocritical?
    • w0rd, on 10/12/2007, -3/+20I do. It seems every time someone is critical of Islam some guy goes, "Hey, we're not violent, lets show them by destroying a block or two with a riot."
    • generic109, on 10/12/2007, -13/+8Hypocrisy has nothing to do with it. There are 1.5 billion Muslims in the world. Just who are you talking about? The Pope did not condemn Muslim extremists. He condemned 1.5 billion Muslims. Do you really want to war with 1.5 billion people?
    • Phocion55, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10Clearly you missed "and I stress *fanatical*". The non-fanatical Muslims, although upset with these comments clearly are approaching the situation with dignity.
    • mapkinase, on 10/12/2007, -3/+10Trust me, as a Muslim I can tell you that every sincere Muslim who is not a dumb donkey is pretty much angered by these remarks. Very minute minority is reacting in a violent way, the majority is reacting by protesting peacefully. Since the public loves to hate violence and gore on television and had a sweet tooth for scandal, those news made it to Digg.
    • generic109, on 10/12/2007, -3/+4Phocion55: Fair enough, but it is simplistic to believe that the violence is only because of words, just as the Rodney King riots weren't about a single court case. There are large political contexts at work here. I abhor violence, but some would like you to believe that it is the result of some kind of innate barbarism on the part of Muslims. Bad policies, the creation of ghettos, can then continue.
    • fyngyrz, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10mapkinase, if Islamists wanted respect, they'd drag their violent "brothers" off the street, censor them in the mosque, and control their actions. Since they are *not* doing that, and *have not* been doing that, we, naturally and I think correctly, assign the views of those violent Islamists to the rest of you.

      If you want your religion to be known as the religion of peace, then stop letting people co-opt Islam for the purposes of violence. If you can't, or won't, do that, then we're eventually going to nuke Mecca or worse. Tolerance only goes so far. Flying into buildings was annoying enough that with just a few lies and pushes here and there, the US was willing to bomb Afghanistan and Iraq pretty much back into the stone age. Those of us who objected were completely lost in the noise.

      You -- the self-professed peaceful Muslims -- really need to control those violent Islamists. Before the rest of the world does. Because as you know, and have had demonstrated many times, people will go to war when you piss them off enough. And as you can probably figure out, a person who does nothing but read the Quran for an education and throw Molotov cocktails for entertainment is at a considerable disadvantage as compared to a nation with physicists who have repeatedly demonstrated the ability to cobble up both fission and fusion weapons.

      Seriously. If those people don't speak for you, stop them before the rest of the world is any further convinced they do. Otherwise, see the passage about the virgins. Because the entire bunch of you is surely going to see if that is so, or not. For one thing, American government is completely out of control. I say that, speaking as an American. For another, Geo. Bush thinks he talks to "God." His IQ is about 80, maybe 85, tops. He *directly* controls nuclear weapons. If I were you, I'd be one nervous Islamist.

    • AhmedOmran, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3@fyngyrz:

      It seems that you're ignoring the fact that he's simply educating you about the fact that not all Muslims are violent. We as peaceful individuals with no influence can't do much to dismantle extremist networks.
      If YOU want the peaceful Muslims (not Islamists by the way) to trust you, you'll have to extend a hand out to them and GIVE them a reason to trust you. Don't wait until they get rid of all extremists until you decide to deal with them. You know they're out there, so ACKNOWLEDGE THEM.
      But all they see so far is a West that's demonizing and insulting their religion, attacking their countries, and supporting pretty much everything that isn't in their benefit. What'd make them want to submit to your request to get rid of extremists, just to make you happy?
      Sure, you say: "If it weren't for the extremists, all that wouldn't have happened". Makes sense, but then again the extremists are there, and the much more peaceful people are there. Make friends with the peaceful people first, and they'll be willing to cooperate. If not, you can never expect a good outcome.
    • moonshn, on 10/12/2007, -2/+0@AhmedOmran

      If it is the Muslim "extremists" who are blowing us up maybe the "peaceful Muslims" should be trying to make friends with us?
    • lwdallas, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3@mapkinase
      If every non-dumb Muslim (back to your point) thinks this is an outrage--how come 1.5 billion people aren't having an uprising against terrorism? How come they aren't shouting on the air waves that this is bad?

      You don't want to hear that every major terrorist act plotted in the world right now is conducted in the name of Islam. So, how about all 1.5 billion Muslims police the believers of Islam and stop them?

      Christians, Jews, and Hindus produce an outcry when Cristians, Jews, and Hindus do something bad.

      Are you saying it is truly a matter of the majority of Muslims being dumb as "donkeys?" That sounds like racial profiling...
    • andyd273, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1I think the closest analogy is a family.
      Family A has a kid that is pretty much out of control. Basically a spoiled little brat that we will call Jr.
      Jr keeps going next door and beating up all of family Bs kids and laughing about it.
      Father B calls up Father A and says, "look, we know you arn't a bad guy, but if Jr keeps coming over here and beating up our kids, we're going to have to take actions to stop it."
      If father A doesnt do something to stop his out of control son, father B will at some point loose patience and call the cops, and Jr will be punished, and father A will be held accountable for his sons violence.
      So, to any muslems that think that you're being unfairly labeled as violent barbarians,
      GET OVER IT. You have a problem in your own house, you fix it and remove the problem, or someone else will have to fix it for you, because we will not tolerate these sycopaths coming over here and messing with us. If you want our respect, EARN IT, show us that you really do want peace, and declair jihad on any of your own people that are giving you a bad name.

      Someone up their said that the pope should have excommunicated Ireland until they stopped their own terrorists. These violent muslems are not your brothers, so cut them off unless they shape up and start being productive.
    • mapkinase, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@fyngyrz and the rest of non-believers.

      "If I were you, I would be afraid...".

      If you were me, that is if you were Muslim, you would be afraid of nothing except The Wrath of The One who created you. If He gave you life then only He could take it away. Does that sound logical?

      I am not proselytizing here, I am just explaining the depth of your misunderstanding of motivation of Muslims.

      A Muslim does not think he can change the world. A Muslim does what he does because he thinks it is correct action in particular circumstances. Sure, Muslims like any other people may differ in their understanding of what is right action. But the basic principle is the same for all Muslims who know the basics of Islam. We act to please God, at least that is what Islam is about and it is up to God to reward us with the results of these actions. We do not act to achive goals, and goals do not justify the means. If the means are Haraam, then they should be abondoned, not matter how beautiful your goal is.

      We have to be patient and tolerant under some circumstances, like the Prophet, sal Allahu 'alaihi wa sallam, did when a neighbor trashed under his gate, and we have to be militant under other circumstances when our land is attacked (even Buddhists of Tibet - now your favorite poster boys of tolerance - violently defended their country when Chinese attacked it).

      So, returning to your advice to be afraid. I am not afraid of lack of intelligence of our president and, in shaa'a Allah, I will not be in the future. What I SHOULD be afraid of is that for lack of MY action I will be taken into account on the Day of Judgment.
  • Armalite, on 10/12/2007, -14/+7My god is better than yours. If you don't believe me, I'll beat you over the head with this friggin' stick.
  • mail4asim, on 10/12/2007, -16/+6I think Pope needs to pay a little more attention to the child molestation issues they've had in the USA... that would really.
  • lupinglade, on 10/12/2007, -16/+6Why religion doesn't belong on dig. Or in this world really.
  • vegasbright, on 10/12/2007, -19/+9Islam is a religio of bullies. Disagree with it? they want your head. I say every picture of mohammed be published, put it on leaflets and air drop them over Lebanon, iran, etc. ***** em. If they cant agree to disagree then they need to taste nuclear fire. Destroy the whole backwards, dangerous depraved culture so we can have the only hing going for them, Oil.
    • Tricky, on 10/12/2007, -16/+11Islam is a religion of "convert them or kill them."
    • marvin69, on 10/12/2007, -13/+5Put it on toilet paper...oh wait they don't use toilet paper... don't shake their left hand.
    • gmillerd, on 10/12/2007, -5/+7Your insane ranting is so amusing, I like it. Especially when your feverishly post non-sense like that. Do it some more.
    • nreynolds, on 10/12/2007, -7/+18Islam is a religion of peace. end of story. that said, they have a lot of crazy ***** that messed up their religion as an excuse for their society not being as advanced as ours.

      I know plenty of Muslims and I sincerely doubt they're plotting to kill me. Crazy people are violent (I am too sometimes), Muslims are not, unless the Muslims you're talking about are also crazy.
    • mrkmrk, on 10/12/2007, -7/+10"Islam is a religio of bullies. Disagree with it? they want your head. I say every picture of mohammed be published, put it on leaflets and air drop them over Lebanon, iran, etc. ***** em. If they cant agree to disagree then they need to taste nuclear fire. Destroy the whole backwards, dangerous depraved culture so we can have the only hing going for them, Oil."

      That was one of the most bigoted, moronic commments that I've seen in a long time. My hat's off to you, sir.

      "Islam is a religion of "convert them or kill them.""

      Islam, unlike Christianity, is not a prosyltizing religion.

      "Put it on toilet paper...oh wait they don't use toilet paper... don't shake their left hand."

      When we consider this and the fact that your username has "69" in it, it would be logical to assume that you're around the age of eleven. Or you might just have an IQ of 69. Either one works fine.

      EDIT: Well said, nreynolds.
    • Livewire, on 10/12/2007, -7/+11You ignorant dick, there are 1.6 billion Muslims on this planet and for you to stereotype like that really shows what an ass you are. I cannot fathom what is going through people's minds as they dug up your idea of dropping a nuclear bomb on civilians and the "***** em" mentality. Islam came hundreds of years after Christianity and in that part of the world, yes, it is safe to say they are less civilized then us. These terrorists are crazy evil people, but hey, so are serial killers and rapists; but does that mean an entire certain race should "taste nuclear fire" just because they fit the common profile of people like this? No. And that is because I am a sane person who does not throw people into a group of extremists just because they claim to follow the same religion. Obviously they are not interpreting it the same way. I am ashamed of being in the same country as ***** like you, and for every digg-up you get and digg-down I get, this sick truth sinks in even more.

      EDIT: I guess the neo-cons came to the story first, but now the sane people are on and you're getting dug down to hell. Bravo.
    • marvin69, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Nope Marvin69 is slang for unit in USMC. I was over there the first go around and you were taught not to offer you left hand because that's the hand they wipe with.
    • Jerichop, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2"Islam is a religion of bullies. They want your head. If they cant agree to disagree then they need to taste nuclear fire. Destroy the whole backwards, dangerous depraved culture so we can have the only hing going for them, Oil."

      This is the greatest example of stupidity I've seen since Bush got re-elected in 2004. You are clearly the bully. Apparently, YOU're the one that wants THEIR head. YOU threaten anyone who disagrees but fail to think others might, indeed, disagree, and attack you for it? And then you think you can bomb the entire Middle East just so you can have their oil? You must be Dick Cheney himself. 9/11 was there because the West needed to be informed that the Third World and the poorest, hungriest of people here on earth will not take the abuse of the rich nations anymore. International justice is the only solution for terrorism and the USA doesn't want to know about it, because they're #1 and will use whatever means necessary (no matter how injust) to remain that. Even if it means spreading disease, rogue trading, treaty-ignoring, convention-avoiding, war-mongering, UN-bashing, Europa-agitating, prisoner-abusing, law-breaking,. There ARE other nations on this planet besides the USA, you know? No, you don't, and THAT's the cause of all our problems.
  • marvin69, on 10/12/2007, -8/+5I'd be pissed to if I was lied to. They tell me to blow myself up and I'll get 7 virgins for eternity? 7 different women forever? If I tried to save some for later I would have to sleep with the same one every 1,000 years and after 7,000 years I still have eternity with 7 nasty scanks.
    • omarqaz7, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4What most people fail to understand is that people like Osama Bin Ladin are not what you would call a "typical muslim". Most of us are normal people who have friends that are Christian, Jewsih, Hindu, etc. The majority of muslims do not get preached hatred and violence, those are only a selected few, following a twisted form of Islam most of us do not believe in.
    • CountBrass, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1Unfortunately Omar you peace loving Muslims are just standing back and letting the "violent" muslims murder people and blow people up without a word of criticism. Is it surprising therefore that you all get tarred with the same brush. Silence is generally interpreted as consent.
  • netwurkpunk, on 10/12/2007, -14/+5Islam is a *****-up excuse for a religion that promotes and encourages violence, terror, mistreatment of women, and hate for all jews, christians and non-muslims. This is a fact.
    • ImTheDarkcyde, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6What makes you so sure that our religion (or lack thereof) is the right one, and theirs is wrong?
    • mistarojaz, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4the way you proved your point and provided references really opened my eyes to the truth about islam.
      thank you for your well founded and researched arguments, i look forward to more in the future.
    • mrkmrk, on 10/12/2007, -6/+10"Islam is a *****-up excuse for a religion"

      Heaven forbid they choose not to believe that a magical carpenter is their savior.

      "that promotes and encourages violence,"

      It's a religion of peace.

      "terror,"

      Bzzt, wrong.

      "mistreatment of women,"

      Actually, Muhammed gave rights to women where they had none before.

      "and hate for all jews, christians and non-muslims."

      Actually, they liked the Jews and Christians, as they understand that that's where they came from. They dislike everybody else just as much as Jews/Christians do: no more, no less.

      "This is a fact."

      No, but you are an *****.
    • javip, on 10/12/2007, -8/+6have u read the bible?
      all religions r *****

      i can't believe comments saying this world would be better without religion are getting dugg down, there must be a lot of religious people on digg, sadly.
      you would all do well to read the following article:
      "religion fosters bad behavior"
      http://www.humaniststudies.org/enews/index.html?id=219&article=7
    • mre5765, on 10/12/2007, -2/+0ImTheDarkcyde:

      Excellent point. The one true god could be a cruel and evil god. But
      my nature doesn't allow me act as cruel and evil. So I guess I'll go to that
      god's hell.
  • lowededwookie, on 10/12/2007, -10/+3This is rich coming from the leader of the religion that bought us great events such as The Spanish Inquisition, The Holy War, and blessed Hitler and Mussolini while in the same breath blessed Churchill and whoever the American president was at the time.

    Catholicism was spread by more violence. If anything Islam is being slighty reduced by all the suicide bombers et al.
    • marvin69, on 10/12/2007, -2/+11I guess you are right religion can't change. That's why I am going to church Sunday to start a fund to pay Catholic families that strap bombs to their kids and sends them out to blow up a bus or cafe in an Islamic city.
    • allthewhile, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10I see your understanding of history is about as nuanced as your logic. Regardless, I clearly remember Pope John Paul II apologizing to the world for the Inquisition & the Crusades.

      Please, stay on track and focus on the point: The Pope quoted someone who thought muslims were evil and violent. Muslims go ***** and get violent. Stay focused.
    • lowededwookie, on 10/12/2007, -6/+0But you're defending someone whose very religion is accused of the same atrocities that Islamist fundamentalists are doing only they did it on a greater scale than the Islamists.

      Hitler was Catholic and slaughtered Jews but that was ordained by the Pope. Tell me how that makes Catholism better than Islam?

      Catholism has been at the forefront of politics even playing a major part in setting some of them up and yet Jesus said that his government was not of this earth and that his followers are to have no part of earthly politcs other than obeying their laws. How does that make the Catholics Jesus' followers if they are doing the exact OPPOSITE of what he said. As such Catholism is not a Christian religion because they go against the very teachings that their supposed ruler taught. The very name Christian comes from Christ.

      I don't agree with what the fundamentalists are doing but neither do I agree with what religion as a whole is doing, especially so called Christian religions.

      However I do believe in the Bible and the changes people can make because of it.

      Gandhi himself said that if everyone followed the principles of the Bible then there would be peace and this guy is from a non-Christian denomination.

      Now the Pope is saying that the Bible is not a book for this time and not to take it seriously? Then what the hell is the basis of Catholism?
    • ultradust, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Catholism was spread by More violence? Prove it.
    • VolatileWhimsy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@lowededwookie
      Your pulling stuff out your hiney... Let me explain to you something that is quite easy to understand. The Church did horrible things hundreds of years ago. They have publically apologized they have carried people upon their backs, they have dedicated their lives to helping the less fortunate wether they are Catholic or not. So you are saying what the Church a hundred years ago they should be punished still for? So that cookie you stole as a kid you should still be punished? We are talking about now...

      But good try on trying to take the heat off the actual Religion that is concern atm..
  • tempest, on 10/12/2007, -5/+14I have to tell you, I am not a young man and since I was a kid, I hear nothing but misery coming out of the middle east. When I was a kid, it was all about hijackings, hostages and the like. Then it was suicide bombings.

    What truly sickened me was the video of Yassir Arafat and his fellow Palestinians (don't care about spelling) dancing in the streets on 9/11.

    By no means do I wish to spark more riots, but I am really convinced they do not have the
    same reverence as we do for life that the western world does, and if it wasn't for oil, they would have no bearing/effect on modern society.
  • Phocion55, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4I think it was more like 72 virgins or something like that.

    But, to my understanding, the actual translation of the "72 virgins" passage has been under debate for the longest time: people are divided as to whether it's "72 virgins" or "72 GOATS". No joke. I guess some people are that crazy just to find out.

    Someone correct me if I'm wrong here.
    • marvin69, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8You are correct but still 72 chicks forever will still get old after year 10,000 or so.
      Now goats are a different matter all together....
    • fyngyrz, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Yeah, goats are *always* "horny."
  • Vandelay797, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Digg allows us to discuss it so people can draw their own conclusions. This is a place where we can discuss whether it DOES belong or not, as you have just pointed out.
  • debachat, on 10/12/2007, -9/+3Funny how self proclaimed christians lost their head and got ready to kill - nuclear or whatever be the option. Guess Nagasaki and Hiroshima werent sufficient and these defenders of Christanity need new testing grounds! Ironical these same people blame Islam for being non-tolerant. Guess they also forgot or never read history as to which religion converted most non-Christians to Christians.

    Back to school time folks! And I dont belong to either camp.

    • allthewhile, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8Are you absolutely serious? You're blaming Hiroshima and Nagasaki on Christians? The Catechism of the Catholic Church clearly condemns such acts, for what it's worth:

      "

      - attacks against, and mistreatment of, non-combatants, wounded soldiers, and prisoners;

      - genocide, whether of a people, nation or ethnic minorities;

      - indiscriminate destruction of whole cities or vast areas with their inhabitants.
      "
    • Phocion55, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8Hiroshima and Nagasaki had NOTHING to do with religion whatsoever. It was a political action to ensure that we wouldn't have to carry out a second D-Day on mainland Japan. I have no idea what you're rambling about.
  • ajb2015, on 10/12/2007, -4/+7"In the speech at Regensburg University, he opened a much broader theological exploration by quoting these words of a 14th century Byzantine Emperor: "Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."

    .......because christianity wasn't spread by the sword's wholesale slaughter of muslims, also known as the crusades. I hate religion. You can use it to justify anything.
    • allthewhile, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8Yes, because we all know that the Muslim Empires were all peace roses during the Middle Ages. There were a lot of different reasons for the Crusades and only a few were religious.
    • Buelldozer, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7I keep hearing about the "Christian Crusades" but why does no one mention the Islamic Crusades?

      Just exactly HOW do you think that so many northern to central portions of Africa ended up Islamic anyway? By them sending letters?

      No, they gave the native peoples, including the Berber, two choices...convert or die. The Islamic Crusaders killed many hundreds of thousands of people with no Christians involved and with no provocation other than zealotry.
  • setrajonas, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3@masamunecyrus

    Jihads are not purely physical wars for religion. The term connotes a struggle of any sort, generally a spiritual struggle. That can mean an internal or external struggle to reach a goal. It's only recently the word's gained a bad reputation for physical violence.
  • imightbewrong, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6What the hell is the Pope supposed to say--"i love Islam and Muhammad!" why do Muslim people even care what he says? obviously he doesn't believe in the Muslim faith. Cartoons, the Pope's comments and the Muslim world is ready to kill!! I've never heard of Christians and Buddhists out in the streets throwing rocks and threatening death. Every one says Islam is about Peace but its not just the "extremists" who get fired up about everything, its the whole Muslim world
    • fyngyrz, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3" never heard of Christians ... out in the streets throwing rocks and threatening death. "

      I guess you've never been to Northern Ireland, then.

      Also, I suppose you're not much of a student of history. Christians throwing rocks and threatening (and providing) death is a pretty good summary of the witch burnings in Massachusetts, not to mention the occasional fruit-bat who bombs abortion clinics, and George Bush's personal jihad against Iraq for that matter. How Christians acted during the crusades is a matter of (disgraceful) record. You should study a little history. It is interesting.


    • imightbewrong, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1^^ You've just completly proven my point--thank you. You've named a series of "low points" in Christianity over the last two thousand years, all of them committed in the name of "Christianity" and undoubtedly all by "extremists". Now compare that to the Muslim "extremists" in the last 20 years, but this isnt about "extremists" its about the average folk. The entire Muslim World goes into riots every few months it seems, and thats something that just doesn't happen in the Christian World.

      And i dont think its fair that people always hark about how Christianity is all about peace, its really about taking a moral stance--which is well defined in teh Bible and in our own hearts. It's not about blatant peace for peace sake.

  • arkmtech, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2Honestly, who cares?

    Live your lives and do what you will with the time you have - Hopefully you'll get what you want when it comes to an end. It's that simple.
  • fahrvergnuugen, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7"...when you think about it, religion has never really had a big problem with murder. More people have been killed in the name of god than for any other reason."

    -George Carlin
  • 4dplane, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8Jews say, believe in my god or you will go to hell!

    Christians say, believe in my god or you will go to hell!

    Muslims say, believe in my god or you will go to hell!

    I say – wow what a bunch of great people!
    • Phocion55, on 10/12/2007, -4/+9and Extremist Muslims say, believe in my god or I will saw off your head with a dull machete.
    • 4dplane, on 10/12/2007, -8/+5The US tortures people and they are a predominantly Christian nation!
    • nreynolds, on 10/12/2007, -4/+3I can't vouch for the other religions, but Christians don't say "believe in my god or you will go to hell!" At least not most of us. The popular theory is that all religions are a path to God as long as they are based on peace and understanding. I personally don't even think religion is necessary as long as the person is a good-hearted person.

      You'd be hard pressed to show that the majority of Christians in the world will go up to a Jew and say that they're going to hell because of what they believe. We ALL believe in the same God (or none at all). Not just that but the Jews are God's chosen people, so we pretty much have to love them.
    • Ephraim, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Before you post about what various religions believe about Hell, why don't you educate yourself on the subject:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell

      As you'll read, Jews don't really have a "Hell".
    • imightbewrong, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2nreynold....your all messed up. I wouldnt consider someone who believes what your talking about a Christian at all. You can say and belieev whatever you want if it helps you sleep, but what your saying completely contradicts the Bible and the Koran.
    • 4dplane, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Good point Ephraim, I kind of forgot about that - When Jesus came he brought hell with him.

      Now I wonder what Jewish people think happened to Hitler. Was he in purgatory for 12 months and then sent to the almighty for eternal love?
  • burkay, on 10/12/2007, -5/+2bash-3.00$ cat pope
    *****
    bash-3.00$ rm -rf pope
    bash-3.00$
    • Phocion55, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2....and in a new wave of protests, angry mobs name folders after the pope and delete them.....?
    • Phocion55, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2and he even used --force ! clearly he means business.
    • burkay, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3should use sudo actually :)
    • mancat, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Why are you recursively deleting a single file?
  • xofc, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4For those of you who want to read the original text instead of the mass news media's take on it, here it is:
    http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2006/september/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20060912_university-regensburg_en.html

    Should I be surprised that there are this many comments and opinions expressed on what amounts to here-say? (not to be confused with heresy) Does everyone here just take whatever they're spoonfed from the mass media without taking a look at a primary document?
  • charlie55, on 10/12/2007, -8/+2the pope is a huge part of the problem himself. belief in the afterlife is a cornerstone of why religious people often get so violent/suicidal. and the pope is one of the top men in the world advancing the irrational belief in the afterlife.
    • Phocion55, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3"irrational belief in the afterlife".

      You talk about it like you know, which is clearly not the case.
    • fyngyrz, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Don't be ridiculous. The point is, no one knows anything about any subject for which there is no direct evidence (writing stories about something doesn't count as evidence, btw.) Belief in an "afterlife" is precisely as rational as belief in hot pink intelligent unicorns in miniskirts, and for the same reason. Sure, might be so, but there is not one single rational thing in this universe that would lead one to think so; ergo, such belief is irrational -- which means you get to apply faith to it, because rationality isn't going to cut it. Conflating rationality with religion is a non-sequetor. Religion is about faith. Faith is not about rationality.
  • charlie55, on 10/12/2007, -5/+2my last post came off too nice so i wanted to add that the pope is a ***** lunatic.
  • Twasi, on 10/12/2007, -4/+6While the extremists are mostly to blame, so is the Pope. He is supposed to be an intelligent man and making a comment like that is anything but. What religion isn't violent? Excuse me but how about the CRUSADES? It's even said by various outlets that backlash like this was expected! The Pope has been very irresponsible and everything damaged and every life lost is partly his fault and I hope he goes to sleep every night knowing this. That quote was not needed, if he believes that saying that in his speech was worth the human lives lost because of it then I feel sorry for such a foolish man.
    • TheScareScrow, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3your missing the point here. Don't try to put this back on the Pope. It's the ***** lunatic Muslims who go balistic over a simple quote. The Pope merely quoted a previous Pope on his take on jihads etc. It's people like you who are empowering these terrorists. Imagine if each time you remotely criticized a group, they went ***** and started killing people. Should that be your fault.

      "Man my boss can be really irrational sometimes".
      "What was that Smith? Ok now everyone's going down."

      Would that be your fault? No, it's called freedom of speech, and guess what... the Pope is entitled to it to. Imagine if each time Christians were some how insulted they went nuts, rioted in the streets, and killed innocent old women. Don't stick up for those pieces of ***** by blaming the Pope. Put the blame where it is due.
    • ccran, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@theScareCrow

      Benedict quoted Manuel Paleologus II, who was a Byzantine emperor, not a pope.
    • Crackshot, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1and yet the point about freedom of speech still applies............hmmm.
  • xofc, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2The real question, which unfortunately can't be reasonably addressed in a comment like this one, is what is true as opposed to what is useful, or what fits with or pre-conceived notions of propriety. Anytime anyone tries to sell you on the merits of a religion or philosophy because it's useful, because you get this or that, or because it promotes the good of mankind, because it's efficient or humane, be suspicious. If it isn't true, it isn't worth a ***** thing. Alas, that is a question far better answered in a Socratic dialogue, rather than this acerbic and, for the most part, poorly constructed rhetorician's exercise.
  • Daiken, on 10/12/2007, -5/+6As a Muslim, I can tell you right now that Islam has brought to the world a lot more than many of you even realize. I don't really care what the Pope said, just because I don't imagine him saying anything that great. All his comments show is that the only way he's able to defend his fading religion from growing Islam is to try and demonize, insult and lie about Islam. It just shows what kind of thinking the pope and catholics have. But whatever.

    Atleast I know any proper Muslim is above making such derogatory comments about other faiths like the Pope did.
    • javip, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3the reason islam is growing, is because so much of the arab population is uneducated, severely uneducated actually (this is a FACT) and are easily brainwashed.
      NOT because people of other religions are changing to islam.

      in fact, in the western world, as people are getting smarter and smarter, and realizing that ALL religions and beliefs in fairytales and god's are *****, they are losing their religion.. therefore the decline if there is one in christians is due to this (i don't know the figures but i'm assuming this is the case with "his fading religion" and "growing islam")

      i can't stand how muslims keep stating islam growing faster than other religions as a good thing for islam.
      it's not growing for the reasons they think, which is that it's the "true" religion or whatever crap
    • kilofox, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5@Daiken

      Proper Muslims need to standup to the extremists that are hijacking your faith to promote violence and destruction...... but all I hear is deafening silence.
    • otomo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Christianity is fading about as fast as muslims are converting to atheism.

      Eg: not at all, in fact christian religions are expanding.

      Arguing that Roman Catholics are fading is a different matter. Not all christians follow the pope as much as you think they do.

      And read the entire comment, this is an example of the media doing a lie of ommission. They left out the entire context the lines were in. If you want to believe he was attacking the muslim religion you are free to do so, but are missing out on what he said.

      Just saying is all.
    • Narrator, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1The non-radical muslims are scared to death of the radical muslims. Their heads are filled with pacifist european ideology that always submits quickly and readily to violent ignorance.
    • ccran, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Not to mention that, as a muslim poster showed above, some see public criticism of other muslims as a greater sin than killing infidels.
  • MidKnighteh, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1oooooh, what are you gonna do about it, drive a plane into a building. .finale
  • ottville, on 10/12/2007, -2/+0wow...look at teh author's name. enough said.
  • QuantumLo0p, on 10/12/2007, -7/+2His speech some VERY good questions.

    Nobody should apologize for the pursuit of truth. Islamo fascist regimes are what they are. We all have free wills and are responsible for ourselves. Whether you are Christian, Jew, Muslim, agnostic or pagan, you ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR OWN ACTIONS.

    The same goes for Islamo fascists. If they keep messing with the bull, they will get the horn. The civilized world is becoming less and less patient with their impudence and deceit. Sooner or later this situation will escalate and I'll be delighted to side with the civilized side and eliminate the "problem".

    Liberal ideologies have failed us, are still failing us and probably continue to fail our society. Islamo fascists do not embrace diversity; they will kill you for not being their faith. They do not embrace tolerance; they will kill you for not being muslim. They do not embrace free speech; they will kill you for speaking about other religions. They do not embrace diplomacy, they will kill you for trying to find a common ground. The non-terrorist muslims say their religion is peaceful yet they do nothing to prevent more bloodshed, tyranny and oppression. They are animals and as soon as the world opens their eyes to this fact the better off humanity will be.
  • kilofox, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2This information age we live in is an extremists dream. Take the Danish Prophet Cartoon incident or even what the Pope said about Islam... had this happened 20, 30 or more years ago, very few people would have seen or heard these examples and it would be basically a non-event. Now you can fart and the whole world knows about it.

    Good men do good things and bad men do bad things. But it takes religion to make good men do bad things. Throughout history extremists have hijacked religion....this is no different.

    PS Speaking of the Pope's apology... when is he going to apologize for Notre Dame getting whipped by Michigan?????
  • gomerspile, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Christians should never really accuse any other religion of bringing the sword. No one brings the sword like jesus
  • kag9000, on 10/12/2007, -3/+4The Roman Catholic Church speaks out. Its not like they backed the Nazi's or anything. Or even tried to exterminate the whole Dutch Nation in its history as well as burned, broke at the wheel, tortured to death, stoned - ad nauseum, lots of people for talking, painting, writing books or for being a woman.

    The only reason why they aren't doing it anymore is because we don't let them.
  • ultradust, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5@generic109
    "He condemned 1.5 billion Muslims."

    He didn't condemn anybody. A pope does not "condemn" anybody. Read up on it.
    He was QUOTING A STORY of some 13?th century EMPEROR. Read the speech again.
    • generic109, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Here is an editorial that argues against your simplistic view:

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1873712,00.html
    • generic109, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1And here is a column by the famous Karen Armstrong:
      http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1874653,00.html
    • mre5765, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3generic109:

      Muslims are still whining over the god damn crusades?

      300 years before the first crusade, Charles Martel repelled the attempt by
      Muslims to conquer all of Europe, and then he and his descendents began to
      drive the Muslims out of the rest of Europe. Then after the last
      Crusades, Muslims conquered Constantinople, the last remant of the
      Roman Empire, and the last significant Christian stronghold in Asia
      Minor.

      I don't hear too many Christians mentiong Martel or Constantinople these days,
      but every day I hear Muslims whining about the ***** crusades.

      Get.
      Over.
      It.
    • generic109, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Muslims are whining about the Crusades because they are under attack by a US-Israeli alliance that uses religion as justification. It's easy to say "get over it" when your house isn't being bombed and your country invaded. Don't get me wrong--I understand Jewish fears and understand the desire for Israeli security. But when the application of justice is so one-sided and there is so much demonizing, especially with regard to religion (really, so much hate-mongering), I understand why some would see this as a religious war. After all, our own right wing frames the conflict as a religious war, the "clash of civilizations."
  • Popperian, on 10/12/2007, -5/+3The Vatican backed Hitler.

    The Vatican *conducted* the Christian Crusades and slaughtered 6 million people.

    Christianity backed the bombing of Iraq.

    We've overthrown and imposed dictators on muslim countries for oil monopolies for the last 60 years.

    The Islam vs. Christianity thing is no contest.

    How many of the more than 200 military actions taken by the U.S. over the last 80 years have had Christian decision makers do it?

    The *REALITY* is that if you count bodies and compare Islam to Christianity it's no contest.

    Over the last 80 years or so, if your throw in WWII and others, Christian/U.S. backed wars have slaughtered 100 million or more people.

    If there is a violent religion, it is Christianity for sure. Islam is the religion of poor people getting screwed over, Christianity is the religion of corrupt, fat, lazy pigs killing and robbing people.

    That's the way it's been over the last 80 years - that isn't likely the way it's going to be in the future.
    • Narrator, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Ha the crusades were nothing...

      The most infamous example of the Muslim world getting totally slaughtered due to its arrogance was when they slightly underestimated the military strength of the mongol hordes and greatly overestimated their own military strength back in 1258ad.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Baghdad_%281258%29

      This and the other mongol invasions were some of the most decisive battles in the history of the world. Compared to what Ghengis Kahn did to the muslim world the crusades were a mere glancing blow.
  • omaryak, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3It's not the religion so much as the culture. People do all sorts of things in the name of religion. Doesn't mean the religion is to blame.
  • charlie55, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1""irrational belief in the afterlife".

    You talk about it like you know, which is clearly not the case."

    well why not lets just believe in anything we can come up with, you stupid ***** moron.

    you do not know what rational means if you think that belief in the afterlife is not irrational. there is no point in going around believing in every wild theory that somebody says out loud. believing in crazy ***** like the afterlife is the reason people think they can kill themselves and others. they see death as a good thing. and the rest of us just mindlessly spread the lie, and then wonder why people are killing us.

    the pope and every religious person are all part of the problem, because so few people have the guts to accept that death is a total and complete unknown, and we have zero reason to believe it is anything other than nothingness. but you spread the lies and keep telling each other that in death we are rewarded with some goddamn fairy tale. when you are part of the lie, you should feel like part of the problem, because you are.
  • burkay, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4For all of you, who keeps claiming that "the muslims do not really stand up against terrorism and religious violence":

    http://www.cair-net.org/html/911statements.html
  • jfmiller28, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I think that perhaps someone ought to link to the full text of the speach given by the Bishop of Rome as it is quite an interesting side not to this whole story

    http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=46474
  • Cornbreadly, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0is the point that religion causes more trouble than it's worth?
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