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- OrenWolf, on 10/12/2007, -5/+105RTFA - he's referring to public deaths, not troop deaths, and moreover, points out the number dead at Baghdad University.
- d00ley, on 10/12/2007, -3/+71Anyways, this should at least hone our skills to empathize with what the kids in Iraq are going through.
- catalysis, on 10/12/2007, -7/+75So far the VA shootings have been used to push political agendas on
1) Video games
2) War in Iraq
3) Gun control
4) Immigration
5) Racism
6) American culture
7) Anti-depressants
Did I miss anything? Is there a way we could tie this to healthcare or hurricane Katrina? 9/11? - jamie1415, on 10/12/2007, -4/+58If you read more than the headline it doesn't focus on the troops or America. It talks about the horror that is everyday life over there in the education system. I'm not making light of our situation but thirty three doesn't equal, "In January, Baghdad’s Mustansiriya University sufferred a double suicide bombing in January that killed at least 70 people, including students, faculty, and staff. A month later, another suicide bomber struck at Mustansiriya, killing 40."
His point is simply see this here in America...that is the everyday school system reality in Iraq. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+45from today's headlines
Four blasts rock Baghdad, killing at least 127
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18169833/
where is the 'round the clock media coverage of this? iraqi lives are less precious. - JigoroKano, on 10/12/2007, -4/+45It's not as bad on the Iraqis because they are used to it? In other words, it's not as bad on the Iraqis because it's worse on the Iraqis?
Your thought process is a mockery of compassion. - quomen, on 10/12/2007, -5/+40It's sad that we need a story like this to get the media out of the Anna Nicole boob sandwich that it was stuck in.
YET, nobody wants to cover the worldwide violence that affects millions and millions of lives. The people in Iraq, Dafur, North Korea.. etc. I feel for you greatly. - shawnfassett, on 10/12/2007, -5/+32We would serve our foreign policy well by listening to Prof. Juan Cole. Somebody that is an expert on the Middle East, speaks/reads the languages, etc...
- kenvsryu, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2885 innocent people were killed yesterday due to sectarian violence in iraq.
- tekhna, on 10/12/2007, -8/+28And as expressed as a percentage of the country's population, while the deaths in Virginia were no doubt tragic, 32 people dead in Iraq is felt much more strongly, as the total population (CIA 2006 estimate) is 26,783,383.
32/26,783,383-Iraq
32/298,444,215-United States
When we see 32 people dead in Iraq, it would be the approximate equivalent of 356 people being killed in the United States. - ubuntuedgy, on 10/12/2007, -2/+19I think this is why you have so many people blindly following the president in the Iraq fiasco; they don't realize the horror of what is occurring in Iraq. When a situation like yesterday happens so close to home, people are horrified. Somehow they distance themselves from the violence that is occurring in Iraq, however, which is very unfortunate.
- gkzhang, on 10/12/2007, -1/+18This ***** probably happens multiple times daily worldwide.
The closer it is to home the more horrific it seems.
But you have a genocide going on in Sudan right now and who knows what other kind of ***** going on in those darker corners of the world. - BrianNowhere, on 10/12/2007, -0/+15The George Carlin Effect:
A tragedy's impact on us is directly proportional to it's physical proximity to us.
"Oh my god! A bomb exploded killing thousands of people? Where? Oh...in Bangkok? Oh thank god. *****, you had me scared there for a minute." - HunterTV, on 10/12/2007, -0/+15It's the "it can't happen here" mentality of Americans.
Like after Katrina when the gov refused to refer to displaced homeless citizens as "refugees."
"We don't have refugees in America."
Except, that's what they were.
The sooner we get out of this mentality that we're some kind of cordoned off part of the world where we all piss rosewater the better. Bad ***** can happen here just as easily as the rest of the planet. - mhanley, on 10/12/2007, -1/+15That doesn't make those deaths any less tragic.
- vertinox, on 10/12/2007, -1/+14Yeah... 150 people died in Iraq today from bomb blasts
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6567329.stm
"In the deadliest incident, some 115 people were killed in a car bombing in a food market in Sadriya district." - LordByr0n, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11They must play a lot of video games over there.
- Azurensis, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11The statement is exactly correct. Iraqi civilian death estimates range from 61,728 to 655,000, giving an average daily death rate over the past 4 years of between 42 and 447 people. Notice how the low end of that range is still considerably higher than the 33 who died yesterday? This whole thing has just pointed out the utter hypocrisy of people in this country.
- Skeptic1970, on 10/12/2007, -2/+11@catalyst
You forgot religion and immigration, and evolution.
OMFG there has been a tragedy, who/what can we blame it one. - DreKor, on 10/12/2007, -4/+13You're right. The two are very different places. However, both have suffered terrible losses. It takes a very twisted view of reality to claim that the mass murders at Baghdad University are somehow less tragic because they were bigger.
- OneZeroZeroOne, on 10/12/2007, -3/+10Let's get down to brass tacks here: No one cares about the people being killed in Iraq.
If CNN ran coverage on the Iraq war similar in tone to the VT shooting, people would take it about as seriously as if they did the same thing over an 8 year old hitting his little sister. The reason? Everyone knows that the Iraq invasion was a sham. No one really seriously thought Saddam was a threat, or that he had nuclear or biological weapons. None of us were cowering in our basements wondering when the end would come.
Everyone watching the news back in 2003 knew they were being taken for a ride. Far from cowering, I sat in my living room and thought, "Ah, well, this will be interesting...at least we'll get to see some of those sweet ass weapons in action that billions of our tax dollars have paid for."
The Pres got on the tube and made some noise about how serious things were. And how Saddam had 24 hours to get out (yeah right). And here we are 4 years later. It's an embarassment and deep down everyone knows that we shouldn't be over there. So we look the other way. We ignore the news. We hope Congress and the Senate will get us out of there sooner rather than later. Then after all is said and done, and while civil war rages on in Iraq, we can then look over the Atlantic and shake our heads wisely..."Ah, those poor misguided savages, why can't they just form a stable government and stop killing each other? *tsk tsk*"
1) We should have never been over there in the first place
2) Once we were, we should have at least done the job right and been prepared to do so (little things like having A PLAN, or appropriate troop numbers, or adequate vehicle armor, etc)
3) Now that it's far far too late to do the job right, we need to get the hell out of there and let them sort things out. This will result in hundreds of thousands of deaths, thousands of new terrorist recruits, and endless new waves of hate towards the U.S.
No wonder the public looks away and doesn't care. It's an utter shame on us. A total embarassment. - roosterjm2k2, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8"One death is a tragedy; a million is a statistic. " - Stalin
- EtherGnat, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7"Even if we weren't there the same would be going on."
Really? While estimates on civilian deaths vary greatly since the invasion, even the most conservative show a significant increase in mortality rates. Saddam was a brutal dictator, but he was pretty effective at keeping the peace. - FloppyLlamaDigg, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6What about when 32 people are killed in Virginia?
or 32 people killed in a college campus?
or 30(?) people killed in a single building?
or 10(?) people killed in a classroom?
or 1 person killed in a desk?
A death is a death is a death is a death. The location and population of the country in which it occurs has no bearing on the impact of the death. - dgarallenpoe, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6That's absurd. What about the story makes it seem to you like someone is trying to gain politically? Last time I checked, the war in Iraq was pretty unpopular. I don't think much more persuading needs to done where that concerns, and I don't forsee a shift in attitude unless it is that people become even more opposed. The intent of the story had more to do with trying to get American's to understand what it would feel like to have this sort of thing happen every day or every few days. Imagine what it would be like to be an Iraqi living in Bahgdad where bombs regularly kill 100+
- eddyc, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7I think its the right time, see what we are feeling now?
Thats how people in Iraq feel and have felt for YEARS, can you imagine feeling like that for years, could you imagine what it could do to you?
I think its times like this that can give us a true sense of empathy with anyone around the world who experiences mass killing on their doorstep
Its not good news, and its not meant to make anyone feel better.
Perhaps if any good is to come from this tragedy it will be a sense for the reality of the suffering of people in war torn countrys, places that I am fortunate to have never known - diggtomanjeri, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6A 112 people were killed today in a single bombing in Iraq. We should mourn equaly for such a tragedy no matter where it happens. If that tragedy happens repeatedly, we should find a way to stop it.
- 83457, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5My younger brother finished his first tour in Iraq last summer and is going back this summer. I thought this same thing with-in hours of the incident -- about how it must feel to have this occur daily in Iraq, Israel and other areas of the world. Bomb exploding and weapons fired in crowded market places, restaurants, places of worship, etc. The fact that each death is a much larger percentage of the population makes it even worse. Relative to population, other countries deal with 9/11 scale tragedies on a regular basis.
- BarneyF, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6This is exactly the reaction my Iraqi colleague had. He just rolled his eyes. In general, Americans are making fools of themselves over this whole story. Senselessly butchering huge numbers of people in a totally unrealistic crusade, and then getting all bent out of shape because of some totally predictable massacre at home.
It really shows how Americans don't give a damn about Iraqis.
Sorry to say this, but as an expat you see things you otherwise wouldn't. :-( - eddyc, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6It puts things in perspective, its really easy to forget that the people in iraq are human beings just like us with hopes and dreams. They're lives are worth as much as ours are.
I'm not from the U.s. but as a westerner I'm kind of ashamed in a way to say I felt more sad for the american deaths than I do about people dieing in Iraq, maybe its because its been goin on for so long you dont care as much or maybe I know more about the U.s. who knows ,anyway, an eye opener for me today. - str3ama, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7@catalysis
don't worry I'm sure in a few days time, they'll add some celebrity gossip higher up on the list..perhaps something about Britney Spears or Paris Hilton coughing in public. - bluechips23, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Life is precious every where. You can't down play the number of Iraqi people dying every day by saying "Oh they are used to it". First thing first, 6 years back, they were NOT used to the unsafe environment during Saddam's rule, with daily bombings and suicide attacks. Secondly, if such lawlessness and insecurity persists any where, people will ultimately get "used to" it. "Getting used to" is not the thing we are talking about. No one gets used to the terms of seeing his/her neighbors, friends or family members dying tragically and untimely. Saying that "Iraqis are used to it" is just immature and cruel. No one deserves that.
As I said earlier, life is precious every where. So may all the innocent victims rest in peace. - 83457, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Yeah, I meant scale as in casualties.
- ramiro, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5It is becoming increasingly evident that both the loony left and the right wing fear mongerers are trying to milk every tragedy, every bad news to the last drop in order to advance their political agenda.
- donjaime, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Alot of people just don't care about the rest of the world. It's sad the many consider people from other countries to be "less human" (whether they realize it or not).
Massacres happen all the time, but until it happens inside your little bubble, the weight of it doesn't sink in. This shooting is absolutely horrible. Hopefully people will realize from this that ALL life is precious, and have similar reactions to some of the violence going on in the rest of the world. - EtherGnat, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4"Please, no 9/11 comparisons. None of the analogies work."
Please tell us why at least 35,000 civilian deaths due to violence and terrorism somehow aren't as tragic as 3,000. Is it only tragic when everybody dies at once? Is it only tragic when there are huge explosions for the news stations to replay over and over again? Is it more tragic when the murder weapon is a plane rather than a knife, gun, or IED?
Maybe I'm just a cold hearted bastard, but I think people are over reacting to the Virginia Tech shootings also. It is certainly a tragedy, but we have nearly 50 murders a day in the United States. There are 100+ deaths in fatal car accidents every day, but the plane crash with 37 deaths will make the news for the week. My point is that just because something is somehow more "spectacular" (for lack of a better word) doesn't necessarily make it more tragic or important. We tend to lose track of the big picture in favor of whatever happens to make a good news teaser. - ELCad, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6The US is at war. Isn't Virginia in the US?
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6War or not killing is killing. Welcome to Internationlism. I will make a politcal statement: Bush is the one pulling the triger everyday in Iraq.
- roosterjm2k2, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3@azurensis
Its not about hypocrisy.
Its human nature. I remember reading something from an article that was written shortly after WW2. Some of the younger, lower ranking nazi soldiers were interviewed and asked questions like "how can you look at hundreds upon hundreds of dead bodies and not feel complete terror." (or similar)
An answer that came out alot was that it was actually easier to cope with Hundreds of dead bodies than it was to cope with one. Its something our brains do. When we hear about 1 death, or 10 ... it hits close to home...its just a handful of people, our brains can handle that emotion. 100s, or 1000s ... our brains simply cant figure out how to cope with that, so it basically cuts off the emotions. - endzeiteule, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3"Civilized means general value for human life and your own life. Iraq, Sudan is nowhere near this yet. How could their loses be valued to western societies if they blow themselves up and rape/pillage."
It does not seem as that guy at VT, who grew up in a western society, valued human life very much. This is, what running amok is mostly about. You reach a point where you come to the conclusion that your own life is worth nothing. And why should that be different for the people, who are (from your point of view) the reason for this?
Of course we cannot be sure about this until we know more details about the VT case, but from what was released of his suicide note, it seems as he also followed that logic.
But I still agree with you that Iraq is a different scenario. The conflict there gets heated up by two fundamentalist, religious groups and most suicide bombers die for their fundamentalist beliefs, not due to the reason that they think the complete society is against them. - BarneyF, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3@gabriels
My Iraqi colleague is not an idiot. BTW he also supports America's presense and celebrated Saddam's death (although as he likes to joke, he voted for Saddam twice)
He also reads Arab language internet a lot and tells us what people are thinking. According to him most of the violence in Iraq is just random madness, or based on ideologies that are so nuts he can't really decide whether to call it insanity or fanaticism.
My post wasn't intended to contain any argument pro or con about the mess in Iraq. (And I don't even know what a "moral equivalence argument" is.) - InfidelAl, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Why is Glen getting dugg down? He didn't make any controversial comments. What is this, 'Damn you and your facts!'
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Wow, great way to take a domestic tragedy that has nothing to do with politics and spin it into a political debate.
Compare shooting to Iraq,
Slip in something about North Korea,
Make giant leap of logic, conclude this was a terrorist act, and use this as a rallying cry to invade North and South Korea
God Forgive America - anodos, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2There are multiple factors that make the VA deaths hard: number of people killed, the way they were killed, where they were killed, how it was handled, and so on. The fact is, people die every day every where. It is impossible for us to care for everyone who is dying, so we choose to grieve those unexpected deaths. Don't be so quick to compare numbers and banty things around. This isn't hypocrisy on the part of Americans. Not anymore than all the other deaths we don't think too much about. For example, about 118 people die every day on American highways because of traffic accidents (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_accident#Trends_in_collision_statistics ). But I still choose to grieve for the VA students.
- sgong1145, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@onezero:
"Everyone watching the news back in 2003 knew they were being taken for a ride. Far from cowering, I sat in my living room and thought, "Ah, well, this will be interesting...at least we'll get to see some of those sweet ass weapons in action that billions of our tax dollars have paid for."
wow, that's a pretty terrible thing to say. Those "sweet ass weapons" kill innocent people. There's nothing "sweet" about that, and your comment shows how you've completely dehumanized the people in iraq, and basically reduced them to something to show off US weapons on. - penumbra, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I don't think you can measure the impact of a death in this way. Moreover, I don't see why you should do so. There's no tally to be kept here; human lives are valuable, and their death is important, wherever they live.
- evilregis, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4I'd love to see the news stories of the daily suicide bombings in Iraqi schools and markets prior to the U.S. invasion.
- glenairlie, on 10/12/2007, -6/+8Maybe he should have said 'In Iraq, this is a daily event, and has been for 30 years'
'Along with other human rights organizations, The Documental Centre for Human Rights in Iraq has compiled documentation on over 600,000 civilian executions in Iraq. Human Rights Watch reports that in one operation alone, the Anfal, Saddam killed 100,000 Kurdish Iraqis. Another 500,000 are estimated to have died in Saddam's needless war with Iran. Coldly taken as a daily average for the 24 years of Saddam's reign, these numbers give us a horrifying picture of between 70 and 125 civilian deaths per day for every one of Saddam's 8,000-odd days in power.'
Just because it's a mess now, doesn't mean that life in Saddam's Iraq was any better or safer, except maybe for the Sunnis. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3I think that our American newscasters and writers for the newscasters are making this all seem very horrible, when just this morning in Iraq, 4 bombs went off which killed like 130 people, I also disagree with the choice of words for the VA Tech shooting cause they say things like "massacre" and "tragedy" In my eyes, and you may disagree w/ it, but a tragedy is not a event caused by a evil deed by another person, but something like a kid getting cancer, or someones house burning down, so tragedy is used to broadly today. For massacre, to me it'd seem more like 100+ people dying, but a lot of people might disagree with me on that.
- CannedMango, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3@infidelAl
I don't know why Glen is being Dugg down, but this is the first I've heard any of those specific numbers for the deaths under Saddam's Regime. Considering how many numbers are casually tossed around out here, Glen should be citing sources along with those numbers to prove that what he's saying isn't just propaganda to support his argument. -
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