What is Digg?137 Comments
- Smoove, on 10/12/2007, -26/+78Liberty dollars are a scam. (1) their nomial value exceeds the value of their silver content, (2) they are not freely convertible to and from dollars, and (3) the folks at NORFED will not accept payments in liberty dollars.
I believe in the gold standard; I don't believe in "real money" scams. - Libberkey, on 10/12/2007, -30/+75Liberty Dollars are not only backed by precious metals, the Liberty Dollar coinage is REAL SILVER.
You can't say that about Federal Reserve Notes, at least not with a straight face. Federal Reserve Notes are fiat currency, a currency wishing it was real.
Liberty Dollars are a violation of federal law like Katherine Heigl is George Bush.
The charge is completely and totally ludicrous. The CHARGE is a violation of ANY law. The Justice Department is in violation of LAW.
What the hell do we have to do? March on Washington? - rtomasso, on 10/12/2007, -2/+42It does seem like a scare tactic. After all exchanging some books or groceries or whatever for silver rounds is just barter when you get down to it. Is the US Mint saying barter is now illegal?
- Larke2000, on 10/12/2007, -6/+41@smoove: "I believe in the gold standard; I don't believe in "real money" scams."
what gold standard? surely you don't believe that the U.S. dollar is still backed by gold? because it's not. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+32@smoove
All currency, even gold backed is worth less than it's face value. This is common and explained in Economics 101 because it's costs a certain amount to print the money. - w3bsmith, on 10/12/2007, -2/+31Actually this is to counter smoove's argument.
Have you ever bought gold or silver from an actual dealer/smelter? You don't pay the market value. You pay more.
Why is that? Well for starters someone had to take the time to process the gold/silver. Someone had to refine it. Someone had to mint that refined metal; either in bullion (bar) or coin form. That someone had to pay employees to do that.
How do you expect to cover overhead? You have to make a profit on the metal either by buying it undervalued or buy selling it slightly over. - shanek, on 10/12/2007, -4/+32The US Mint has no jurisdiction to claim whether a private currency is legal or illegal. That jurisdiction belongs to the Secret Service, which has stated clearly that NORFED's Liberty Dollars are perfectly legal.
The US Mint just can't stand the competition, is all. - dgoddard, on 10/12/2007, -4/+27Using alterative currencies is no different from barter of any other kind. It's not like Liberty Dollars are posing as US dollars; they are clearly marked otherwise.
This is a case where nonviolent noncompliance with the "authorities" makes a lot of sense. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+20@interiot
You do know that the value of a US Dollar fluctuates don't you? - masamunecyrus, on 10/12/2007, -9/+28I've never heard of NORFED or their currency before, but this is the first sentence on the Liberty Dollar in Wikipedia.
"The Liberty Dollar is a legal private currency."
Since when is the government more correct than Wikipedia? Never, that's when. - rhawk301, on 10/12/2007, -1/+15"The Congress shall have Power To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;."
- US Constitution, Article I, section 8, clause 5
There is nothing in there about exlusive rights to coin money. The US Mint is grabbing at straws. They have no constitutional right to claim exclusive coinage, and there is no way they can win this argument except by force. - dgoddard, on 10/12/2007, -11/+25Marching on Washington will get you nowhere.
Moving to the Free State and joining the hundreds of other who are doing so... just might!
http://freestateproject.org
http://dollar.freetalklive.com - richardtallent, on 10/12/2007, -3/+17I'm not totally disagreeing, but there was a time when the "United States of America" was a Utopian fantasy land.
- daldredge, on 10/12/2007, -3/+16But it is taxable :)
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+13Funny, I don't hear the mint complaining about the Federal Reserve. It is NOT affiliated with the government. It is a private bank that prints money out of thin air and then charges us for it. It's ***** paper with numbers on it. We don't have "dollars". We have Federal Reserve Notes. Look up the definition of Note and you will see that it is a debt obligation. Hell, it doesn't cost any more to print a $100 note vs. a $1 note but it sure makes a difference in their books!!!
The Federal Reserve is not only unconstitutional, it is what has destroyed our Republic. It's all about the money. Why is it that the Fed has never been audited? Why is it they are no longer going to publish the M3 report? The answers are simple - they know people would revolt.
Look at Lincoln and Kennedy. Both were in favor of circumventing the Federal Reserve and both took dirt naps early.
Mayer Amstel Rothschild put it rather succinctly:
"Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes the laws." - spraguep, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11The Federal Reserve is a private corporation not a part of the federal government and last I checked it printed all the notes in my wallet. It literally says "Federal Reserve Note" right across the top of all 20$ bills. Is there a difference between notes and coins?
Am I missing something here? - Libberkey, on 10/12/2007, -28/+39People should not be afraid of the Justice Dept. The Justice Dept should be afraid of the people.
- ashembers, on 10/12/2007, -2/+13What do you mean? The gist of it is that bartering (in some forms) can be made illegal. How is that not encroaching on civil liberties? Take a look around you. We are losing freedoms everywhere, and not under a just blanket of social contract.
- twinklyJesus, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11The Federal Reserve does not print ANY money. The US Treasury prints sheets of money which it "sells" to the FR for $13.00/sheet regardless of denomination. The FR then loans the money back to the US Government at face value of the currency plus interest (inflation). It is a racket created by the Rockefellers/Chase Manhatten, JP Morgan and others at a meeting in 1913 on Jekyll Island off the Carolina coast. It took them until the late 1920's to create a situation where the Federal Government would be amenable to accepting their "protection racket." Hence, the crash of 1929. At that point, they stepped in and offered their combined assistance in propping up the US dollar as The Federal Reserve Bank, in exchange for the interest loaned.
I have been told that the amount paid annually to the FR equals the amount received by the IRS each year. I have not verified this and don't know if it really matters.
Just an intersting bit of conspiracy info...if anyone cares. - gcnaddict, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11quote=cezar: "All currency, even gold backed is worth less than it's face value. This is common and explained in Economics 101 because it's costs a certain amount to print the money."
The US Penny doesn't fit that mold. - daldredge, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11@bolero421
The guys with the guns disagree with you
http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc420.html
Bartering occurs when you exchange goods or services without exchanging money. An example of bartering is a plumber doing repair work for a dentist in exchange for dental services. The fair market value of goods and services exchanged must be included in the income of both parties.
Income from bartering is taxable in the year in which you receive the goods or services. Generally, you report this income on Form 1040, Schedule C (PDF), Profit or Loss from Business. If you failed to report bartering income on returns you have already filed, you should correct this by filing an amended return, Form 1040X (PDF), for each year involved. For information on amended returns, refer to Topic 308.
A barter exchange is any person or organization with members or clients that contract with each other (or with the barter exchange) to jointly trade or barter property or services. The term does not include arrangements that provide solely for the informal exchange of similar services on a noncommercial basis.
The Internet has provided a medium for new growth in the bartering exchange industry. This growth prompts the following reminder: Barter exchanges are required to file Form 1099–B for all transactions unless certain exceptions are met. Refer to Barter Exchanges for additional information on this subject.
If you are in a business or trade, you may deduct any costs you incurred to perform the work that was bartered. If you exchanged property or services through a barter exchange, you should receive a Form 1099-B (PDF), Proceeds from Broker and Barter Exchange Transactions. The Form 1099–B or other statement generally will show the value of any cash, property, services, credits, or scrip you received from the exchange during the year. The IRS will also receive the same information. - falstaff, on 10/12/2007, -5/+15Between private parties, I don't think the government has any legs to stand on. Barter is barter, and as long as both parties agree on the currency (or service), no government regulations should ever be involved.
There could be a problem, though, if the Mint is correct in it's statement that:
""Liberty merchants" are encouraged to accept NORFED "Liberty Dollar" medallions and offer them as change in sales transactions of merchandise or services.""
I'd be pissed if some clerk offered me some coins that wouldn't be accepted universally. The offer wouldn't be illegal, but any merchants pushing Liberty Dollars as equal to US dollars would be inviting the wrath of customers and perhaps the law.
Additionally, although the company does have a good point that the government does not have the "exclusive" right to coin money, the Constitution does say that the government has the power to regulate the value of money. This also does not say it's an exclusive power, but I don't see how competing interests could both regulate it, so exclusivity is pretty much implied. If anybody could print their own money, the value of money would fluctuate severely, removing all government power to regulate it.
Now, whether that would be a good thing or not to get the government out of this (and other) ventures is a wholly different topic, but as it stands now, a case could be made that anybody offering these as more than just collectibles might be in hot water. - Misesean, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11You read it, but do you understand what it says? What does it mean to "make" or "utter" a "coin", or to be "current money"? This is just anti-counterfeiting legislation. Liberty Dollars are not counterfeit money.
"to utter, as used in a statute against forgery and counterfeiting, means to offer, whether accepted or not, a forged instrument,
with the representation by words or actions, that the same is genuine." (Blacks Law Dictionary)
Similarly, "coining" means putting an official stamp on it, effectively making the claim that it's "legal tender". Liberty Dollars make no such claim. They're not "coins" (that's why they call them "rounds" or "pieces")
[Also note that it's the US Mint saying there's a problem, not the Treasury Dept., or anyone that actually has any legal standing, who have repeatedly said that there isn't] - Smoove, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9"I'll stick with the central bank and my own wits."
Judging from the incoherent paragraph you just spewed forth, I'd say you'd better not depend too heavily on your wits. You could starve. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+11Yep, we should only care about the things you think are important. Like figuring out how to ***** on the 2nd Amendment while protecting the 4th.
- bonked, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9the "Pass it off as currency of America" part is kind of confusing to me since they made no such claim.
- maehem, on 10/12/2007, -7/+16Looking at their site. A $20 coin ( with .999 oz. siilver) costs $20.
I have a problem with this. The current price of silver is about $10.50/oz. and has fluctuated between $4 and $15 over the last 10 years. So this guy is selling me $11 coins for $20?
Also, why is he selling the money at US Dollar face value rates instead of an exchange rate
like with other currecies?
This smells like either a scam, or fancy coins for collectors only. - EXreaction, on 10/12/2007, -2/+11@Smoove...
So what if the value of the coin is less than the actual value of it? A $1 bill should be worth a hell of a lot less if you set your figures that way...
I would hate to get near anyone that just got a $100 bill if that's the way you do it...because if you go by the cost it took to make you might as well wipe your ass with it. - bonked, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9What part of the law says I have to do all my business in US Dollars? If I make an agreement as a seller/buyer with a buyer/seller to exchange goods and services for pink lollipops there is no law broken - hence none here, also the Department of Treasury has specifically stated that this particular private currency is completely legal.
You sound like the people that tried to make Federal Express illegal because it was in competition with the post office. - Wooism, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9Wow, those Liberty's sitting in my closet are about to get worth LOTS more!
- MajorPaine, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9@ Rhombus "True to form, Digg attracts yet another rabble of libertarian loons!"
Do you even KNOW what the definition of a libertarian is? I didn't, although after doing a little research (start here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism), they probably fit me better politically than any other party.
II cannot be a Republican -- thier religious stance makes me nauseous, and lately they are just plain EVIL. I cannot be a Democrat -- lately they aren't willing to stand up for people's freedoms as they are being yanked away, or argue against our constant state of war, and they seem to want to welfare EVERYONE.
A party of people who believe that "individuals should be free to do whatever they wish with their person or property, as long as they do not infringe on the same liberty of others" sounds pretty damn good to me! - bonked, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9Approx. $20 Million Dollars worth RTFA
- Oakes, on 10/12/2007, -8/+16@w3bsmith
You're missing the point. We're ALREADY paying for the overhead costs of the current federal currency through our tax dollars, so having to pay for the overhead of yet another currency system on top of that is, as Smoove said, a scam. You cannot, and will not, *ever* be able to compete economically with the government's currency system unless you drive the overhead costs down to zero. - stimcaps, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8Normally, I'm the first to groan whenever another one of these libertarian threads appears on Digg, but this time I want to stand with the libertarians. This is wrong.
Many communities throughout the United States have private currencies, such as Ithaca Hours in New York and Madison Hours in Wisconsin. These private currencies facilitate barter between consenting parties and are legal. No law requires transactions between private parties to be made in US legal tender.
It's worth mentioning at this point that Liberty Dollars also come in notes of various denominations, and that no one at the US Treasury, Mint, DOJ or any other office claims that these notes are illegal. It's simply the medallions they're going after. The law they say forbids this is 18 U.S.C. § 486:
"Whoever, except as authorized by law, makes or utters or passes, or attempts to utter or pass, any coins of gold or silver or other metal, or alloys of metals, [i]intended for use as current money[/i], whether in the resemblance of coins of the United States or of foreign countries, or of original design, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both."
The question at hand is:"What is the legal definition of 'current money'?" From what I can gather, it's an archaic term that is treated as a synonym of 'legal tender'. But the Liberty Dollars don't claim to be legal tender. You can't pay your taxes with them, and users of Liberty Dollars know this. There's no difference between the way Liberty Dollar medallions are used and the way Liberty Dollar notes are used. The legality of private currency in general doesn't change, whether it's implemented with printed notes, colored beads, plastic tokens, or metal medallions. As long as these medallions aren't being asserted as authentic legal tender, there's no crime.
(As an aside, the US MInt refers to Liberty Dollars as "medallions" and so I've adopted their terminology here. This is particularly odd, though, because 18 U.S.C. § 486 only applies to "coins" and if the US Mint defines Liberty Dollars as medallions, and not coins, then 18 U.S.C. § 486 would not apply at all in this case.)
So why are the Mint and DOJ going after Liberty Dollars if private currencies in general are legal? The US Mint seems to have become upset that "'Liberty merchants' are encouraged to accept NORFED 'Liberty Dollar' medallions and offer them as change in sales transactions of merchandise or services."
http://www.usmint.gov/pressroom/index.cfm?action=press_release&ID=710
An awful lot depends on the word 'offer' in that sentence.
If a merchant owes you five dollars in change, and hands you a five dollar medallion without explanation, there's no question in my mind that this would be a case of fraud. But this does not mean that Liberty Dollars are, in and of themselves, fraudulent. If the merchant explains what Liberty Dollars are, and that they are not legal tender, and you choose to accept it as payment, no crime has been committed.
The US Mint press release I linked to above states:
"NORFED’s 'Liberty Dollar' medallions are specifically marketed to be used as current money in order to limit reliance on, and to compete with the circulating coinage of the United States. Consequently, prosecutors with the United States Department of Justice have concluded that the use of NORFED’s 'Liberty Dollar' medallions violates 18 U.S.C. § 486, and is a crime."
But there is no law against "limiting reliance on" and "competing with" circulating coinage. 18 U.S.C. § 486 does not say that. And it certainly doesn't say that all uses of Liberty Dollar medallions in transactions are criminal. That's just an outrageous statement for the US MInt to make.
I'm no libertarian, and I'm not endorsing the Liberty Dollar, either. But I find it hard to read this action by the US Mint and DOJ as anything other than harassment. I can't imagine why -- from what I can tell, Liberty Dollars are only used by a small number of merchants, small enough to make it easy enough to locate and charge any merchant attempting to pass them off as legal tender. So why make a federal case out of it? I don't know.
My prediction is that this attack on the Liberty Dollar is going to backfire. It will certainly garner the Liberty Dollar a lot of press it otherwise wouldn't have had, and promote the ideas behind it. I think in the end, the judge will rule that Liberty Dollar medallions are just as legal as any private currency note, as well. I imagine the gossip amongst libertarians will be that the Federal Reserve must be afraid of the Liberty Dollar. I doubt that very much, but I wouldn't be suprised if people began to believe it. The government's attack on the Liberty Dollar will do more to encourage its use than discourage it. - mlorrey, on 10/12/2007, -5/+13Why is the Mint doing this right now, someone asks?
Here are the possible reasons:
a) Note that oil prices, gold prices, silver prices, are all plummeting prior to the November election. It could be that Bush has ordered that the same market hedging programs that have gamed the markets to the advantage of the power players for several years are now being gamed to lower prices in order to increase support for Republicans going into the November races. Having the US Mint attack NORFED at the same time in a way that would impact the value of its coins is part and parcel to such a strategy.
b) The US Mint could simply feel threatened by the fact that NORFED coins have more silver in them than US Mint specie coins, and thus the Liberty Dollar enjoys more collectible value among coin collectors. The US Mint depends highly on the coin collecting market to sell its coins at several times face value and up to double metal content value. By attacking NORFED, the US Mint drives down the collectible value of the LD while driving up the value of its own specie coins. This seems logical given the Mint is also attacking other private mint products on the same pages, though not to the extent it is going after NORFED in charging it with federal crimes.
In response to Smoove's claims that the LD is a scam:
In my research of the original Coinage Act (which you can check on Wikipedia), the silver content of the original US dollars, up until 1913, was about 0.78 ounces of silver, at a time that the US government paid $0.90/ounce for silver from the mining industry. While the market value of silver became $1.29/ounce, this was because the primary source of silver for jewellers, silversmiths, and consumers was by melting down US silver dollars, which by face value made consumer market silver cost $1.29/ounce because that was the face value of an ounce of coined silver.
By contrast, the LD has a full ounce of silver in it. If we were to take the Coinage Act specifications of the 1790s, and adjust its silver content requirements for the inflation caused by the Federal Reserve over the 20th century, a 1 ounce silver LD coin would be required by law, if minted by the US Mint, to have a face value of about $28.00. By that comparison, the LD is a bargain at only $20.
Thus, we can conclude that the US Mint is attacking NORFED because NORFED is undercutting the US Mint on what it is charging on a per ounce basis for coined silver. Note that the Mint does not charge $1 for a $1 US silver dollar, it charges about $25.00 for it, or more. - sorti, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9You have to pay taxes on barter. http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc420.html
If company A trades a service to company B and company B trades a service back to company A and they are the same value I think they can wash each other out with no tax problem.
But if you barter a good between two people or companies you have to convert to us dollars then pay the tax on the exchange. If a farm was to barter with a company to provide a tractor to till the field, then you would have to convert the tractor and the food to us dollars and then pay taxes as if the transaction had been done in us dollars.
And what if you used a coin like the Liberty Dollar to track your barter system? As long as you pay your taxes how can that be a crime? The entire reason to do this is to avoid empowering the US dollar, and the Federal Reserve Bank. - mlorrey, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8The Mint has no police powers, and NORFED has obtained a number of statements from Treasury and Secret Service officials over the years who have officially stated that there is nothing illegal about the Liberty Dollar. The US Mint is simply acting monopolistic, trying to corner the market on *collectible* coins. Virtually none of its silver or gold coins ever are spent into the economy, because they are worth more than their face value, a result of their being restricted by the Coinage Act in reducing their metal content to keep pace with Federal Reserve caused inflation. The US Mint hates the fact that the Liberty Dollar contains more silver, of higher fineness, and more gold, of higher carats, than its own coins, and is minted at higher pressure, producing a higher quality coin that is shinier and harder than the lower quality US Mint product.
- Smoove, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7"...encourage hoarding, blah blah..."
The point of a gold standard is that it's essentially impossible to inflate the dollar. When "money" means pieces of paper backed by nothing, the man behind the printing press has an irresistable motive to crank those babies out: inexhaustible wealth. It's true that this also produces inflation--but the guy behind the press needn't worry: he's always one step ahead of inflation. When he leaves the mint with a suitcase full of money, he gets to spend it at /today's/ buying power. Inflation doesn't kick in until later, when the money has circulated.
Gold can't be inflated. It can be dug up, but that involves labor and expense. It can be adulterated, but even stupid people realize they've been cheated if the coin doesn't really contain the required weight of gold. In the days of gold standards, kings tried that trick--and generated a massive outcry. Even not-so-stupid people fail to realize they're being cheated when the supply of paper money is inflated. After all, the thing in their hand hasn't changed, regardless how many truckloads of other, similar notes may be circulating. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7It's been legal till now. You've had 200 years. Why haven't you done it yet?
- Libberkey, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7Something else you folks may want to check out:
"...another First Amendment Petition of Grievances that the We The People Congress is heading up. http://www.givemeliberty.org/
- bolero421, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7I would appear to be misinformed, very sorry. Got to learn more about the IRS though; thanks daldredge.
I do believe, however, that the government (particularly at the state-level) would be wary of bartering because it is more difficult to trace than normal money transactions, and thus not as likely to be caught if you are skipping out on your dues (unlike check and credit, which leave massive paper trails). - joebob2k6, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9The article somewhat misses the real concern of the Mint:
The operation of our government is financed in large part by devaluation of the fiat currency through various mechanisms. These mechanisms include small things like printing more currency and using cheap metals for coinage, and big things like selling bonds and federal open market operations.
This currency devaluation represents a hidden tax, where your savings become less valuable as inflation progresses. Inflation is much higher than most people think, due to disingenuous reporting in the CPI, and laziness on the part of the financial media to call them on it.
Money is intended to be a store of value, but under extreme inflation, this is not the case. Many financially sophisticated people recognize this and have moved towards finding other things to store value rather than dollars. This is similar to how the people in third world countries use the US dollar as an exchange medium because their local currency is worthless. This is not really about "libertarian fringe people", this is about people like Warren Buffet losing faith in the dollar.
If the trend grows and people start seriously using something other than the dollar to effectively store or exchange value, the government will no longer be unable to use inflationary games to fund its operations. Without these games, the government is up a creek. Did you know that the IRS income tax basically just covers interest on the national debt? The money to fund operations is coming from fiat currency shenanigans. - geronimo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7All publicity is good publicity. The best case is this goes to the supreme court and Liberty Dollars triumphs. It's puzzling that all these weird things are occurring, the fed decides to discontinue M3 reporting, it goes after Liberty Dollars now. Could they be trying to set a precedent for when hyperinflation happens and people ditch the dollar? What's next, going after people with large sums of non-US currency? What if we decided to do all of our transactions in the Euro since that hasn't tanked like the dollar has recently. Is that illegal?
Hopefully this is just an aberration. - jeffiek, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7No comment on the wisdom of Liberty Dollars. An observation on the government's actions. They usually attack when they feel threatened.
- bonked, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7The 10th Amendment: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."
Where is this "exclusive" you speak of, it says "nor prohibited."
You are wrong - it would be an exclusive right to coin money - congress is allowed to coin the official money of the United States of America - there is no limitation imposed on private currencies otherwise barter would be illegal.
Claudia Dickens, spokeswoman for the U.S. Treasury Department's Bureau of Engraving and Printing, said American Liberty Currency is legitimate. "There's nothing illegal about this,"
Dickens said after the Treasury Department's legal team reviewed the currency. "As long as it doesn't say legal tender there's nothing wrong with it."
Andrew Williams, a spokesman for the Federal Reserve in Washington, D.C.: "There is no law that says goods and services must be paid for with Federal Reserve notes. Parties entering into a transaction can establish any medium of exchange that is agreed upon."
There is a major difference between counterfiting and using alternative currencies. You have unlimited right to contract under US law, so you have the freedom of choice to accept any currency you wish along with federal reserve notes. - ne0shell, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8It's about time for the feds to start using all those shiny new laws they got passed in Patriot 1 and 2. In the past week we've seen them:
Submit an unconstitutional bill allowing wiretaps without proper warrants
Charge a journalist under the "infrastructure Protection" segments of PA1&2 for videotaping an Exxon plant sitting next to a FEMA camp (google Greg Palast charged)
Use a federal SWAT team to raid a 9-11 hero who spoke out about WTC site toxins and 9-11 truth (http://www.infowars.com/articles/sept11/toxic_dust_whistleblower_raided_by_swat_team.htm)
The administration is attacking it's critics and questioners one after another - seeing what they can get away with. The Liberty Dollar folks are not the only ones making non- US issue coins. Seen a commercial for the WTC coins lately? The difference is that the Liberty dollar folks speak out about the federal reserve scam and our loss of freedom. - Misesean, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6But they're the only ones willing to use them (at least in large enough numbers to matter)
- jeffiek, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7@ashembers and cezar
Cut jbus some slack. He still thinks the emperor is wearing clothes. - williamdyer, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Read up on how the government "makes" money and you might change your tune. Money should be a competitive enterprise.
- mlorrey, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8Obvious Troll,
No other country has a constitution quite like ours, either, does it? If you think those other countries are so great, why are you not living there? -
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