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St Louis Post: Chained slavery continued in South into 1940s

stltoday.com — "[Cottenham] was found guilty of the vague charge of vagrancy. Unable to pay exorbitant fines, he was sentenced to a year of labor & sold to a mining subsidiary of US Steel, which agreed to pay his debts in return for his services & sent him in chains into a coal mine."

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  • bixby1, on 06/25/2008, -4/+34I had no idea forced labor continued into the 1940's. A great find but a very sad chapter in our history.
    • gravyboy, on 06/26/2008, -2/+10Yeah, I'm really glad that we don't use forced labour anymore.

      /sarcasm
    • ccourt23, on 06/26/2008, -1/+3I watched an interview with this author on last friday. Very interesting. I wish our history books were more thou rough on the positives and negatives of american history.
    • fyngyrz, on 06/26/2008, -1/+4For your reference, the 13th amendment, wherein the power of slavery was kept 100%alive by, and for, the government:

      "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, ***except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted***, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

      I added the asterisks so you can see just how the amendment applies in this instance.

      Further amendment is called for, in my opinion.
      • Dragular, on 06/26/2008, -2/+2If we strip that out, we remove the option of "chain gangs," road crews, etc. etc. which actually get those who are in prison today out and doing something, instead of sitting in jail watching t.v. I say leave it in, the courts have already ruled shutting down actual "slave" labor using that part of the amendment.
        • fyngyrz, on 06/26/2008, -6/+1If you don't think they should be watching TV, then agitate to have the TVs taken away.

          Personally, I don't think forcing prisoners to work is reasonable. Imprisonment is bad enough, especially considering the utterly miserable state of the prison systems in the country where I live (USA); forcing a person to perform an act of service is something else entirely.

          When you force someone else to perform an act, I think you've entered the exact same territory as rape, theft and slavery. There's no ethical platform to stand upon that can justify such a thing.

          If someone rapes your wife, that doesn't give you the right to rape theirs, or to rape them. Same reasoning applies to slavery. Either it is bad, or it isn't. I take the path that says it is bad. Period.


    • CoMpUtErITGuY, on 06/26/2008, -3/+3Buried. I think we need this type of punishment today.
      • BlacklabelSAR, on 06/26/2008, -2/+3Okay, let's make having a screen name in alternating caps illegal and get you chained up and working. That's how arbitrary this is.
    • ZenMojo, on 06/26/2008, -2/+1Sad chapter? Sad chapter! Look, I'm tired of people patronizingly calling slavery "a very sad chapter." It was 3/5ths of the goddamn book!

      Call it a horrifying volume if you want to, or call the 21st century a fascinating epilogue or a briefly uplifting post-script.
  • stonebear, on 06/25/2008, -8/+46This is the prison industrial complex, which continues to burgeon even today. Of course, it's more sophisticated now.
    • UtahPirate, on 06/26/2008, -2/+6I tend to agree!

      Prison industry is one of the fastest-growing industrial segments of today. I tend to think that once we finally figure out that treating prison inmates like gods will annoy the hell out of them, we can make our prisons comfortable and the prisoners will reject those comforts in the name of sanity.

      And for those who think I'm crazy, imagine this scenario: if there was a deserted island where your every need was met, a virtual paradise with the best security in the world, but the catch was that you could never leave, and you couldn't take anything (or anyone) with you, would you still go?
      • streetlightpoet, on 06/26/2008, -0/+4Yes, where do I sign up?
      • Murdats, on 06/26/2008, -0/+2hell yeah, give me internet and im there.
        also I assume I get to interact with the other 'inmates', if not then still a hell yeah.
      • RyeBrye, on 06/26/2008, -1/+11I have another scenario for you:

        Imagine a cold cement cell where you are surrounded by metal bars. Every day in the shower you fear that "White power bill" will finally split you in two as he pounds himself into your anus - and every day in the yard you fear being shanked by a gang you inadvertently offended...

        I wonder which has a better return on investment... Disney Prison, or normal prison...
        • foofightrs777, on 06/26/2008, -0/+2It depends on how dirty your ears are I would suppose.
        • dinostabOMG, on 06/26/2008, -0/+2I'm not saying UtahPirate's idea would work, but the one you're talking about has been more than thoroughly tested, and what have we got? 3,000,000 people in the situation you're talking about.
        • NCg8r, on 06/26/2008, -0/+1It entirely depends on whether you want to destroy men who have committed crimes or whether you want to rehabilitate them for release back into society. Sadly, we're doing half of one and half of the other...
    • migatikon, on 06/26/2008, -1/+6The core issue with regard to contemporary slavery is bound up in today's drug law. I suggest everyone take a look at the several pages in the Wall Street Journal listing the seizures of assets by the Drug Enforcement Agency. Every day vast amounts of money, land, and valuable goods are forcibly forfeited to the DEA. By itself the amount of cash is absolutely astounding. The crushing weight upon citizens caught up in this machine is not alleviated appreciably according to their guilt or innocence. Citizens are assumed guilty in the sense that they must spend time, effort, and energy to reclaim their property. The burden of proof is on the citizen. How have we let this happen?

      The seizure process has evolved alongside state and federal governments' expanding efforts re. drug law enforcement. Drug law has created an industry in America which, to my mind, is responsible for a great deal of the expansion of police power, the expenditure of public money on military-grade weaponry and training for so-called 'peace officers', and the erosion of our Constitutionally-mandated liberties and rights. It's become an excuse for government bodies, from local to state to federal, to increase and maintain their ever-tightening grip upon our everyday lives. They cleverly employ fear, publicity, misinformation and lies, imagery, and propaganda to shore-up the status-quo. As frightening as the military that are the police is the idea that drug law makes criminals of such a huge portion of the population. The penalties are absurd and unequally weighted against and applied to the poor and the non-white.

      The worst part about the whole mess is that over the last eighty-or-so years this outrageous power has been consolidated over and over such that we are hopelessly unable to rescind any of it. Think of the money which pours into citiy, county, state, and federal agencies for the purpose of enforcement of laws which have helped to put 1/100th of the population of the nation behind bars. What elected official would dare oppose this scam?

      Drug law, in my opinion, is the single greatest conduit through which our liberties are co-opted. It's a threat to the people, and we have convinced ourselves the ends justify the means. We're led to believe that what we do to our own bodies or minds is the business of government. If the argument goes, "drugs are harmful because of the crime they incite", I respond, "punish, then, the theft or murder or assault instead of the drug-use." I say we must begin to treat drug-addiction as a mental disability instead of a crime; treat it with humanity and as a clinical disorder. Only through this route might we tire and destroy the beast that drug laws have spawned.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forfeiture
      http://www.fear.org/
      http://www.isil.org/resources/lit/looting-of-ameri ...
      • migatikon, on 06/26/2008, -0/+4Sorry about that last link. It's:

        http://www.isil.org/resources/lit/looting-of-ameri ...
      • fyngyrz, on 06/26/2008, -1/+5Actually, it is codified in the 13th amendment. If the government convicts you of a crime, they can make a slave out of you. Here it is:

        Amendment 13: Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, EXCEPT as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

      • migatikon, on 06/26/2008, -1/+5One more chime-in for a fine essay on Civil Asset Forfeiture:

        http://www.cjcj.org/pdf/civil_asset.pdf

        Remember, friends, that this is everyone's problem. Drug law is not about drugs, but about money and power. Regardless of our feelings about drugs, we cannot allow ourselves to slide any further down this (to use a cliche) slippery slope.
      • shady8x, on 06/30/2008, -0/+1yes, but, but, but THINK OF THE CHILDREN!THINK OF THE CHILDREN!THINK OF THE CHILDREN!THINK OF THE CHILDREN!THINK OF THE CHILDREN!THINK OF THE CHILDREN!THINK OF THE CHILDREN!THINK OF THE CHILDREN!THINK OF THE CHILDREN!THINK OF THE CHILDREN!THINK OF THE CHILDREN!

        Dang, I am out of counter arguments...

        Really hope you don't mention that children are hurt by drug laws...
    • mike17032, on 06/26/2008, -5/+1Except of course its nothing like that at all, no matter how much you run it through the diggtard distortion field.

      No one is forced to work inside a prison. They dont have to do a damn thing.
  • philodygmn, on 06/25/2008, -8/+23The vagueness of a charge like "vagrancy" is of a piece with that of "terrorist" or "enemy combatant". It's the racket of nationalism, which is tribalist identity warmed over and disguised with our supposed authority as "democracy". We'd better wake up and throw off nationalist laws, and the capitalist property/ownership system which controls it.
    • UtahPirate, on 06/26/2008, -8/+8Communism ain't that great either, philo... property and ownership are what allowed the computer you used to post with the ability to be produced. Capitalism creates efficiency in technological and social progress. In spite of its drawbacks, capitalism is actually the best alternative.

      And, having spoken at length with people who are communists, it isn't going to help to neatly ignore the fact that you benefit from it and would complain if you lost your "creature comforts" like radio, the light bulb, central air conditioning and heating, personal computers, and the like. And if you wouldn't, then I'd invite you to go live in China for a while, somewhere that technological progress wasn't stimulated by copying what a capitalist country has done.
      • Orbmanelson, on 06/26/2008, -3/+6So Utah,

        Why must you automatically reduce the potential for a different system to exist to Communism?
        Why is cooperation among groups working in a collective effort viewed as negative. The world is crumbling around our feet under capitalism. This system will not prevail for many more years. It simply is not sustainable and the mass population of the world will not support its continuance. There are millions of variations on any given theme... so much more than just black and white.
      • andy314159pi, on 06/26/2008, -3/+2China is running circles around us with an entirely managed economy. You can try and spin that however you want.
        • Kyan, on 06/26/2008, -1/+2Right, I'll out spin on it. Let's compare smallish or medium-sized cities in the two countries from at least five different geographical areas. Cities say 40,000 to 60,000 in population.

          BTW, just how many schools collapsed in China a month ago and how many children were killed as a result?

          I think China is not running circles around the United States.
      • shady8x, on 06/30/2008, -0/+1@andy314159pi
        You do know that US manufacturing sector is STILL about the size of the Chinese economy altogether right?

        Also we have many other sectors...

        anyway, the main reason their economy is doing as well as it is, is because all of the 'evil' capitalists are throwing their money in there...

        It isn't because china is doing something right, it is because china is not protecting its people... no pension no compensation for injuries no anything... pretty sure those aren't things which you would consider 'good'.

        @Orbmanelson
        I agree that there are many other things we can try which aren't communism...

        Still all governments are necessary evils that must be kept on a leash by its people... democracy does that best...(too bad we don't have true democracy anywhere)
        Hey we can try that...
    • patch6, on 06/26/2008, -1/+4Better to respect due process by avoiding such loopholes that place arbitrary jurisprudence in the hands of a select group who consider themselves above the law.

      And if you live in the US, protection of the rights and freedoms enumerated by the constitution takes precedence over democracy, which has its place in determining the powers not delegated to the US, but to the individual states or the people themselves.

      The level of general prosperity attained by respecting those rights was unequalled by any other nation during the late 18th to early 19th centuries, until those safeguards were systematically undermined and circumvented, bit by bit, from that point on. It took a long time to render such a great nation completely subservient to the central banking cartel.

      It's only the US in name at this point, with a completely compromised foundation, and the amount of debt per capita being mathematically unpayable (much much more than the national debt). Everyone that isn't a part of the criminal cabal is an indentured slave as soon as that debt is called in.
      • andy314159pi, on 06/26/2008, -0/+2nobody knows exactly what would happen if the debt was "called in."
    • foofightrs777, on 06/26/2008, -5/+3Mankind has invented no more efficient engine for production than capitalism. That said, the system, as it is a product of man, has flaws which we should attempt to minimize.
    • Vazel, on 06/26/2008, -2/+2Kill a commie for mommy.
  • cheetosfan, on 06/25/2008, -19/+1ooooh slavery
  • AvangionQ, on 06/25/2008, -7/+12That such `legal` slavery was eradicated in the United States by 1945 just illuminates our country's sad history of racial inequality ... it is an old wound that only the long passage of time will heal ...
    • fyngyrz, on 06/26/2008, -1/+3It hasn't been eradicated, and it is 100% still legal. See the 13th amendment; if you're convicted of a crime, the government can make a slave out of you.

      If you have any doubts remaining, I refer you to the terms "chain gang' and "hard labor."

    • Opiate, on 06/26/2008, -2/+3I didn't know they got rid of income tax..
  • brendoman, on 06/25/2008, -4/+10This reminds me of the classic movie "I Am A Fugitive From a Chain Gang" which helped expose this type of thing. Very tragic.
  • JimmySpaza, on 06/26/2008, -15/+9Chained slavery still continues to enslave and persecute millions in Africa and Southeast Asia. Don't see too many newspapers doing exposes about that. I guess many of these media types still have a bone to pick with America for some reason...even if they have to go back 60 years to do it.
  • chicofaraby, on 06/26/2008, -4/+26I would imagine that black people in Georgia already knew this.
  • dabura, on 06/26/2008, -8/+12poor diggas...
  • fadeout, on 06/26/2008, -2/+27We've just outsourced the slavery to Chinese and Burmese sweatshops. :(
    • ilovemacs, on 06/26/2008, -8/+3if youre so concerned then why arent you on a plane to china to stop the madness?

      oh yea, cause all the 'concerned' users of this site are full of *****.
      • streetlightpoet, on 06/26/2008, -3/+8You've watched a few too many action movies huh?
      • skratchnerd, on 06/26/2008, -3/+3GO figure. Handle is ilovemacs
      • wonderbriefs, on 06/26/2008, -2/+1Hey, Mr. Self-Righteous. What are you doing to stop it?
        • ilovemacs, on 06/26/2008, -4/+2i think youre confused. i dont give a *****. they make more money doing sweat shop work than any of their ancestors ever made.
      • fyngyrz, on 06/26/2008, -1/+2China? Heck, you don't have to go any further than the American south.

        Chain gangs. Hard labor.

        Slavery's not dead. It's just owned by the government. 13th amendment. Sad but true.
    • azpat, on 06/26/2008, -0/+4What I can't understand is how slavery has become so prevalent in eastern Europe/Russia. It's almost like "democracy" brought slavery with it. Although I'm not sure that the fall of communism necessarily means the direct replacement was democracy.
    • weebmac, on 06/26/2008, -0/+1That's an overly simplistic and ultimately false picture of the situation. Does it suck that sweatshops exist? Sure. Some are worse than others but it's not my favorite thing in the world by any stretch.

      What sucks more, though, is the crushing poverty that exists in the countries where cheap, outsourced labor and production thrive. In the absence of these production facilities, people would have only two options: back breaking outdoor agricultural labor or starvation. Often the supply of farm workers exceeds the demand. While in global terms the pay rates for so-called sweatshops aren't much, they often well exceed the pay that domestically-based work opportunities would otherwise provide in those countries. Imperfect but it's an improvement. These jobs are the first steps to strengthening those economies. Don't forget that sweatshops built up western economies during industrialization. The seeds of money thus sewn built up the wealth of individuals in western populations and let them outgrow and ban sweatshops. Today a US "low wage" worker has air conditioning, food to eat, access to reliable transportation and even cable TV.

      In short, we're not even remotely talking slavery. These people choose to take these jobs because the jobs make life better. These are jobs that are harsh but definite improvements over the alternatives of starvation or working in fields. We've got a long way to go in the world to get everyone on their feet and it's painful at times to consider how much is left to fix.

      Still, let's not conflate making the choice to take offshore production work and feed one's family with the deplorable, criminal act of imposing ownership over another human being and stealing the product of his labor. It insults the past and present victims of slavery and human trafficking. It insults the people who make a genuine choice to take care of their families.

      (Sidebar: the rare western companies who do allow genuine forced labor to be used in production of their goods can die in a fire.)
  • mt330404, on 06/26/2008, -1/+3old article but well worth the read. dugg
  • sequoyah101, on 06/26/2008, -14/+5Sorry it happened but it is over now isn't it? How long will these events keep being brought up? What will it take to satisfy the blacks?

    What value did this article add at this time?
    • UtahPirate, on 06/26/2008, -3/+12Hope the following can clear up and answer your posts:

      It is indeed over now. Those who fail to remember the past are doomed to repeat it.

      These events will keep being brought up so long as people pay attention.

      Blacks are typically satisfied (as with all humans) when they have a method to get their way. Personally, I'm not black, I'm blue (as evidenced by my eye color).

      What value does it add? It points out just how far we have come, and reminds us how far we have left to go. It also allows us to see racial bigots in the process. And, as fadeout said, it allows us to examine our own ethical place, and determine if what we're doing is the right thing. We shouldn't continue to do something which is against our personal ethics, morals, etc., unless it's profitable (that's the American ethic, apparently). Thus, it's right to sell people into servitude if we benefit from it (an extension of that ethic). We're still operating on that ethic, and the value of this article is to show that racial division only serves to enhance that ethic, rather than to fight it. Unity, and not division, is the key to survival.
      • slvrbullet87, on 06/26/2008, -4/+4I dont think anybody is going to forget it, ever wake up in the morning and forget 300 years of history? Didn't think so.

        I get sick of all of the talk about slavery, and the fact because I am white that I should feel guilty about it. I am in no more responsible for slavery than I am for the bubonic plague
  • madfrogurt, on 06/26/2008, -13/+9The South: Where the sins of the past come to life again.
    • andy314159pi, on 06/26/2008, -1/+2sounds like a themepark is in the works
    • NCg8r, on 06/26/2008, -3/+2Sounds like someone has never been here, but likes to watch TV.
      • MatthewDuke, on 06/26/2008, -2/+2I'm always surprised when people are proud to be from the South. Such a bigoted and violent history. It's like someone proud of being a Nazi.
        • zionKing, on 06/26/2008, -1/+2You compare Southerners to Nazis and then denounce bigotry. I hope you are proud of yourself. I see you are from Ohio... did you know Ohio leads the nation in... wait for it... hate groups: http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2001/11/12/loc_st ... ...

          Matthew Duke... wow, you must be related to the Louisiana governor hopeful... and please next time don't use mom's expensive sheets when getting your clan outfit together
        • MatthewDuke, on 06/26/2008, -1/+1next time don't use mom's expensive sheets when getting your clan outfit together
          -------
          Huh? I said the South shouldn't be so proud of their history - why would that make me a Klan member? That is the antithesis of Klan beliefs.

          Ohio never started a bloody civil war for the right to possess human beings, though it did play a big part in the Underground Railroad...
        • NCg8r, on 06/26/2008, -0/+1How can you be proud of being from "The North"? Don't you know they held slaves after the Emancipation Proclamation? Don't you know they continued to treat minorities as 2nd Class Citizens for decades after the war ended? Can you answer for the treatment of Irish (et al) immigrants over the whole of the 20th century??? But it's The South that needs to be ashamed.

          Your people weren't spawned from the forehead of Zeus and they didn't fall from the sky to land on Bahh-ston. That you would presume to deride those of us from the Old South says a lot about your myopic view of our country and its citizens.

          Dick.
        • HanFastolfe, on 06/26/2008, -0/+1@NCg8r

          I'm from Ohio as well. On behalf of my state I'd like to apologize for MatthewDuke. Most particularly his reference to the Nazis. He just doesn't get it. As do most people that jump to the Godwin. It typically exposes the the weakest, and most shallow mind when, pick your thing, is related to Hitler/National Socialism.

          @ MatthewDuke

          My family has been resided in this state since before 1820. Several of my ancestors fought in the Civil War. One even spent some time at Andersonville Ga. While it is correct to note Ohio importance as a route for the Underground Railway, what you miss is that at no point were the .`good people', of that time interested in having former slaves, stay, in Ohio. The goal, then, was to ship them on to Canada, to get rid of them. We have a mixed record of black/white relations in this state. Sure we have Oberlin College (first to admit blacks in 1832), but we also had many localities that denied blacks the right to own land. There is a certain level of sanctimony on the part of northern States as concerns slavery. It was predominately northern moneyed interest that had a keen focus in the continuation of slavery. And in keeping the south from industrializing so as to avoid competition. Slavery was such a pernicious institution that even blacks held slaves, and New Jersey didn't free the last of their slaves till 1865. The Emancipation Proclamation didn't apply to slaves in the north, nor did the end of the war free slaves in NJ.

          http://www.slavenorth.com/index.html

          Delaware, and NJ, rejected the 13th Amendment when first proposed. Delaware didn't ratify till 1901.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirteenth_Amendment_ ...

          It's a very screwed up and convoluted subject that does not lend it's self to an easy digestion. Bringing the Nazis into it, only, makes you look like an idiot.

          @NCg8r

          Oh, even though some of my ancestors might have shot at yours, and yours might have shot back, I'm supremely proud to have the south as part of the national identity. I've spent time down south, and had a very good time. The people (all races) were much more friendlier then any I have encountered in any of the `progressive' cities in the north (BTW: your women are smoking hot). I am sorry for people like, MatthewDuke, he just doesn't get it. Your people fought with bravery for a cause that you believed was right. I can't say I'm sorry that you lost, but I respect the effort. When I have visited Civil War battlefields (Gettysburg, Antietam) it's with a deep sense of respect for ,both, sides. What divided us so deeply was long ago, we have more that unite us today.
        • MatthewDuke, on 06/27/2008, -0/+1...but the North doesn't go around flying Civil War flags and declaring "Northern Pride"...so all your arguments fail. I didn't say I was proud to be from the North - I just think it's odd that the South is so proud.
        • HanFastolfe, on 06/27/2008, -0/+1@MatthewDuke

          "...but the North doesn't go around flying Civil War flags and declaring "Northern Pride""

          Just stop. You've already lost. You began with the fail of an inappropriate Godwin. Have you been to any of the Civil War "re-enactments" here in Ohio? We only had one real (minor) battle on our soil, but that doesn't stop many from participating in the "encampments" normally then a skirmish with re-enacters is provided as well. If for no other reason, go for the food. It's excellent. If you have kids, then definitely go. Nothing gets their attention more than smell of gunpowder, the trampling of horses, and the roar of canon.
          If you bother to attend there are battle flags of the Union, and various regimental flags all done to be authentically period on display. These men display the appropriate colors (even the Confederate flag) with pride, and respect.

          "I didn't say I was proud to be from the North - I just think it's odd that the South is so proud."

          Great, don't be proud of the North. I, and many others descendants from those veterans are. At the same time I fully understand why so many from the south are proud of the service of their ancestors. If you fully appreciated the history maybe you would be more proud of your own, and would not think it so odd that others would be proud of theirs. As the victors, it is entirely incumbent upon us to treat them with a great deal of respect, so as to facilitate the reunion of the nation. If it were just about subjugation, and revenge then screw it, it's not worth it. I would rather fight, with, them at that point. That's not the vision that Lincoln had in mind.
        • MatthewDuke, on 06/27/2008, -0/+1Are you bi-polar? At one point you give me a lecture on the despicable history of Ohio and chastise me for being proud of my Northern roots (a sentiment I never asserted), then in a later post you state: "If you fully appreciated the history maybe you would be more proud of your own". So which is it? Do you want me to be proud of the North or not proud?

          Again, I'll dumb it down further for you: The South shouldn't be so quick to assert pride in their history. I wouldn't be proud to be from an area built on racism.
        • HanFastolfe, on 06/27/2008, -0/+1@ MatthewDuke

          " At one point you give me a lecture on the despicable history of Ohio and chastise me for being proud of my Northern roots"

          Citing a few instances of the mixed history of our states record on racism is not a lecture. Citing some the bad stuff of the past then keeping in mind how far we have come, is, something to be proud of. It makes little difference where we are without context.

          "chastise me for being proud of my Northern roots (a sentiment I never asserted)"

          You said:

          "...but the North doesn't go around flying Civil War flags and declaring "Northern Pride"..."

          I referenced that, yes, some of us in the North do. Not just the Stars and Stripes (that I fly outside my house), but in direct reference to period Union flag, and regimental flags of the Civil War re-enactors.

          All you noted of pride is the Underground Railroad, which is something to be proud of, even with it's mixed history. The UR was from before the Civil War, when the bulk of what today is considered southern pride came into being. Southerners are not particularly proud of slavery, but they are proud of the service, and the struggle that their ancestors went through.

          "So which is it? Do you want me to be proud of the North or not proud?"

          I told you, and was quite serious, I don't care what/if, you are, proud of. That's not my place to tell you what to be proud of.

          "The South shouldn't be so quick to assert pride in their history. I wouldn't be proud to be from an area built on racism."

          We too live in a state that has racism in it's roots. Most of the Northern states held slaves, at one point or another. Our state was admitted as a `free' state, but racism was still prevalent for a long time to come, and still exist to this day.

          http://www.slavenorth.com/ohio.htm

          At no point does racism only apply to white on black only. There are plenty of places in our state that being white at the wrong time/place is not a good idea. Other races (and their proclivities) are part of the mix of racism. Starting with the native population of Ohio, that is not here anymore.

          I have no problem with being proud of a history that is messy, and doesn't fit well into our modern preconceived notions on how life should be. Consider Jefferson. How many ways are we, as Americans, proud of him? At the same time how many ways can he be an indefensible scumbag in his personal life?

          Keeping history in context is not being proud of all the components in that history. One has no control of what was. But one should not remove the aspects that are distasteful to modern sensibilities. In this instance do not confuse southern pride, as concerns their ancestors actions during the Civil War, directly to racism/slavery. It's the reason your initial Godwin defined stupidity.

          Plenty of people served in the German army that may have been anti-semitic, but were not the kind of monsters that would fire up the ovens (that takes a special evil to do that). A German family proud of their loved one lost on a U-Boat in 1943 does not make them genocidal maniacs. Even if they thought the war was wrong, doesn't matter, it's the service of their loved one that they honor.

          There is an indirect connection to racism in the southern cause. As I have noted though, blacks held black slaves as well. So it's slavery is not pure racism (expect in this instance of those being enslaved, not just the owners). We understand that this nation had slavery built right into the founding document (3/5th of a person). Are we then never to be proud of the nation? Our state, even though free, was admitted to the Union when those despicable lines of the Constitution were still law. In essence, we set our selves apart from it, but still acquiesced to slavery. Slave hunters (some black) worked our state legally searching for escaped "property". You simply can't get free of untidiness of it all. The notion that north is so much removed from the racism of the regressive south is not compatible with reality. Calling the Civil War, `The War to Free the Slaves', was not a notion of the beginning of the war. It was a war to preserve the Union. The Ohio regiments fought for the preservation of that Union which at that point in time, meant slavery. Lincoln admitted as much himself. Even when he did proclaim slaves free, it was only applied to sates in rebellion, so effectively no slaves were freed by Lincoln.

          You're unlikely to ever find a place that doesn't have some kind of race problem in the past, and that doesn't continue into today. So, what are you going to do? Be proud of nowhere? Since nothing is ever set up all perfectly cut, and dried that it will always be worthless?

          I wonder how much time you have spent down south, and what they mean when they think of southern pride. I think you have a preconceived notion of what they mean by what they say and feel. Go there, spend some time off the beaten path. Get to know some of them a bit, it's worth is. As I noted the women are hot, and people friendly. Just don't be an ass, leave your notions at the door. Yeah, they have some redneck sumbags, but not so much more then we have in Ohio, or any other state I have been in (or other country for matter).
  • ilovemacs, on 06/26/2008, -19/+3who gives a *****
    • BlacklabelSAR, on 06/26/2008, -1/+2Intelligent people, which leaves you out.
  • zyklon, on 06/26/2008, -5/+9A black guy named Green, a white guy named Blackmon, what's going on!?
    • ZenMojo, on 06/26/2008, -0/+2Two fat men sat down to lunch: Jack Black and Barry White. Who covered the check, the Black guy or the White guy?
  • Midtowner, on 06/26/2008, -4/+16My father's stepfather's uncle still had de facto slaves in the 1960s. They worked on his farm and were paid with company script, only redeemable at the company store. Definitely a-typical of the time. This relative of my father's stepfather was the son of a Confederate General... so no real shock here.

    That said.. this article doesn't really shock me. I'd be surprised if it shocked anyone. Racism and oppression are still alive and well today. Is it so shocking that things were a lot worse 60 years ago?
    • rancemo, on 06/26/2008, -3/+4Were they not free to leave? Free to work elsewhere? Free to trade the company script to outsiders?
      • foofightrs777, on 06/26/2008, -2/+51: In theory, yes. In reality, no.
        2: See 1
        3: See 1
    • slvrbullet87, on 06/26/2008, -7/+2Yep the man is still holding the black man down, that's why a black man will most likely become the next president
      • nj10ii, on 06/26/2008, -1/+2But he likely won't affect any of this type of crap going on. Just because he's a black man.
      • ZenMojo, on 06/26/2008, -1/+1Most white men won't vote for Barack Obama in this election. An incredibly small number of white men over the age of 45 will vote for him.

        He'll win despite The Man, because that's how democracy works.
      • Midtowner, on 06/26/2008, -0/+1I think it's a lot more complicated than that.

        I wasn't really commenting on the current situation other than the fact that I knew of at least one example of where slavery was still alive and well in the South. I forgot to mention that this was at an Antebellum plantation and the "employees" still lived in crowded, non-air-conditioned, slave-houses on the plantation grounds.
    • bacon_skoda, on 06/26/2008, -3/+4the vagrancy charge talked about in the article means (according to blackmon's interview on moyer) if you are a black man without a job in the south, you are a vagrant. only way to not be a vagrant is to belong to an employer. so black and unemployment = police will pick you up and charge you a fine you cannot pay, but will then put you to "work" to "pay" it off..they basically sell you off to some farmer or mining camp.
      many laws were made just to pick off blacks or enforced in a way such that it only affects blacks.
      • ZenMojo, on 06/26/2008, -1/+2Why dig him down, this is historical fact.
  • patch6, on 06/26/2008, -3/+8As long as privately owned prison systems are able to extract dirt-cheap labor from prisoners (mostly nonviolent drug offenders), there will be legalized slavery.
    • JustinNoland, on 06/26/2008, -3/+1To some extent I disagree. I think that, at least on a local level, and maybe even state level for nonviolent offenders, work programmes are underutilized. Incentives like taking a day off one's sentence for every day worked doing labour are good ways to reduce costs to taxpayers because sentences are reduced (again, hopefully only for nonviolent, non-repeat convictions) and other costs like road maintenance or whatever are also reduced. Aside from that, the prisoners (of which we imprison way too many for way too stupid *****), if they feel motivated to work, would effectively be able to cut their sentences in half. Everybody wins.
      • ExitMoose, on 06/26/2008, -1/+4Zeroing out the cost of imprisoning someone by forcing them to provide labor only provides a stronger incentive to keep and enforce these absurd laws and punishments. As long as there is a profit to be made in the business of imprisoning people, nothing will change. This isn't the direction we should be moving in.

        And don't try to clear your conscience by convincing yourself that this is some kind of free choice we're offering.
      • dinostabOMG, on 06/26/2008, -0/+1It isn't about whether it's more economical. It's about forced labor. If we're spending too much on prisons, maybe we should rethink the "way too stupid *****" (which I agree about) that got them in prison in the first place, rather than bargaining down their sentences.
      • BlacklabelSAR, on 06/26/2008, -0/+1Whoosh!
    • smotpoker, on 06/26/2008, -1/+3Many forms of labor/work are welcome by a vast majority of inmates, many of whom would even prefer working for free as a means of learning or time consumption over rotting in a cell. IMO, the only real problem arises when it hurts society and breaks the economy by:
      - taking decent jobs from good/honest people
      - causing unjust arrest of good/honest people for cheap labor (putting their families on welfare)
      - strengthening the corporations who benefit from that labor to the point where similar businesses cannot compete in the same industry/region

      If not for those factors, much of the labor that occurs these days is more or less voluntary and should be allowed IMO. Though I do believe they should be used for jobs that do not make the prison where they live profit much or hurt the economy. They should just grow their own food and help develop/test/implement alternative energy sources or something...
      • dinostabOMG, on 06/26/2008, -0/+1I think you hit most of the major points - which outline why this is a bad thing. Nobody denies that someone benefits from cheap inmate labor. The question is whether it is ethical, and I believe it is not. There's a conflict of interest between the state and prison industry on one side, and public interest (not being imprisoned for no good reason, and not having to pay to imprison those who are) on the other.
        • smotpoker, on 06/26/2008, -1/+2My points outline why it is bad but also why it is good and how it could be improved.

          Inmate labor is not typically forced these days in the U.S. (I think). They have a choice to pick between earning a meager income and skill/trade (which in many cases is of paramount importance to successful rehabilitation) or finding some other means of passing time and paying for some of the luxuries they might be afforded.

          The main problem AFAIK is the imbalance to economy. If those imbalances can be removed (by providing jobs that are non-profit, help society and make them self-sufficient) there is not too much of a problem - we end up better off than with the current prison labor or without any at all (and help discourage repeat offenses/offenders on more levels)
    • mike17032, on 06/26/2008, -1/+3*****. They are not ***** forced work camps. Having a job is not required inside a jail, they are free to sit on their useless criminal asses all day if they so desire.
  • joe361, on 06/26/2008, -8/+3I hate whitey!
  • BlueRidge1985, on 06/26/2008, -3/+8In other news.... millions of North Koreans and Chinese are incarcerated in forced labor camps>>> 6/25/2008
    • cheezintern, on 06/26/2008, -3/+4However it isn't because of their race, which is the whole point of the article.
    • duggdowncatisad, on 06/26/2008, -3/+2We should liberate the North Koreans.
  • rancemo, on 06/26/2008, -6/+12I work more than 50% of the year as a slave to government.
    • foofightrs777, on 06/26/2008, -2/+4move?
      • braeden0613, on 06/26/2008, -1/+1where?
        • aptanalogy, on 06/26/2008, -0/+2away?
        • foofightrs777, on 06/26/2008, -0/+1Just btw....I posted this in sprit of the "Why didn't they just leave?" comments in this thread. It's a completely different situation when it's about you, your local friends/family, and other people you know eh?
    • skratchnerd, on 06/26/2008, -0/+350% of the year, how much vacay do you get buddy? I work more than 80% of the year as a "slave" for my company.
    • bossk, on 06/26/2008, -0/+1He did say he worked for the government! ;)
  • blackmesa, on 06/26/2008, -5/+4There's a character in "A Confederacy of Dunces" by John Kennedy Toole that has a character trapped in basically slave labour due to the threat of "vagrancy" charges. It's an awesome book, by the way. I recommend it!
    • NCg8r, on 06/26/2008, -0/+1He used that as an excuse to stick around and fark with the lady who owned the bar. That old guy was the only one in the book who had a handle on things! Shoooooooo.....
  • dhaugen, on 06/26/2008, -4/+6im guessin by chains you mean handcuffs which whites would have and still get when being transported as a prisoner, i don't agree with bonded labor but i think they wouldve done the same with any race
    • smotpoker, on 06/26/2008, -2/+4Totally. We all know white southerners have always hated everyone equally. They just enslaved blacks because they were better workers and tried to keep everything segregated because they were infected with negritis.

      White civilians would *never* unjustly accuse or lie on a blacks even if they thought they were inferior/bad. White cops would never willfully ignore a black person in trouble or try to put them into it out of greed or spite, no matter how they were raised to perceive them. All of the decades footage, testimony and evidence was completely contrived as part of an elitist communist ploy to make hardworking god-fearing white Americans look bad.
      • thebaron2, on 06/26/2008, -0/+1Finally, someone who gets it!



        ..../s
    • bacon_skoda, on 06/26/2008, -0/+1i would agree that you didn't read the article.
      • dhaugen, on 06/26/2008, -1/+1as i told the guy above me, you get ***** heads in every group
        • bacon_skoda, on 06/26/2008, -1/+1laws were made specifically to target blacks.
          the first batch of these laws were thrown out because it was too obvious it was targeting blacks.
  • Orbmanelson, on 06/26/2008, -9/+6Slavery has never been eradicated. In stead it has been amplified, camouflaged and decorated to resemble the tattered ghost of the American dream.

    The shear number of single family home foreclosures in the face of both husband and wife and even young adult children working overtime and multiple jobs to attempt to save their homes demonstrates that slavery is alive and healthy in America.

    Also the current extreme economic pressure erodes the structure of the family while prices skyrocket by the day and week. This is a blatant indicator that slavery has been expanded in scope to encompass the middle class as well as the already overburdened poor. The unfortunate aspect is that families are being steamrolled into submission by inexorable mortgage contracts which only serve to make the banking industry more wealthy.

    The rising cost of living, with nowhere to turn for help as the government once again turns its back on the people (think gas and diesel prices in recent months) and continues to spend billions of tax payer dollars on destructive wars which only serve to enrich the weapons manufactures and bankrupt our once robust and thriving nation.

    Having your down payment, life savings, interest and principal stolen by the banking industry is very much a form of stealing your life’s labor and that is the very definition of slavery, but for lack of a better term we can call it CAPITALISM. Which for some ungodly reason, is somehow supposed to be good for us. It is nothing more than a bloodsucking vampire which consumes everything in its path.

    America was built on murder, exploitation and slavery. It is the underlying mechanism by which the financial system in this country expands and thrives! Not all chains are made of metal.
    • bacon_skoda, on 06/26/2008, -3/+4you are so far off this topic.
      this is about chained to your bed and worked to death in a coal mine slavery.
      not i cannot pay my bill whining.
      stop commenting on titles. read the actual article
      • Orbmanelson, on 06/26/2008, -1/+1O... OK, so ya gotz yer pink slavery, n yer green slavery, n yer yeller slavery, n yer blue slavery...
    • Lawrencesss, on 06/26/2008, -2/+3Its a shame you spent so long writing such a pile of *****.
      • Orbmanelson, on 06/26/2008, -1/+1I manage my time and my viewpoints according to my own engine of expression...while you apparently spit short spirts of vulgar venom.
  • copperhead, on 06/26/2008, -3/+10Has anyone actually read the 13th amendment that supposedly ended slavery?

    "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime where of the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

    Slavery as a punishment for a crime is still perfectly legal, at least according to the Constitution.
    • skratchnerd, on 06/26/2008, -5/+1I've read it once.

      A long time ago in a galaxy far,
      far away....

    • andy314159pi, on 06/26/2008, -1/+5Right, but vagrancy isn't a crime that should lead to prison (and subsequently to forced labor.)
      • copperhead, on 06/26/2008, -0/+1That may be true, and I'd probably agree with you, but that's clearly not the point the article was trying to make. Honestly, I would love to see slavery as a form of restitution for a crime. For example, if someone steals and wrecks another persons car, their labor ought to go to pay back the value of the car to the owner (or the insurance company).
        • andy314159pi, on 06/26/2008, -0/+3>> "That may be true, and I'd probably agree with you, but that's clearly not the point the article was trying to make."

          The article made certain that the reader understood that these people were going to forced labor for vagrancy.

          Anyhow, you can already recover monetary damages with the civil justice system. You'd just bring suit against whoever stole your car. You are free to sue people for monetary damages even if they are in prison.
        • bacon_skoda, on 06/26/2008, -0/+3"but that's clearly not the point the article was trying to make."

          you have missed the whole damn point of the article dude.
  • DrCyclops, on 06/26/2008, -1/+3The entire coal industry was built on a form of slavery. Just ask anybody from Appalachia.
    • NCg8r, on 06/26/2008, -1/+1I asked, but I didn't understand the answer... (for anyone who doesn't know, look up the origins of the word "Redneck")
  • Barackalypse, on 06/26/2008, -4/+12We're slaves now too, if you don't think so try to exist on your own land without any external revenue to pay your property tax and see how long it is before the government comes and seizes your property for back taxes. The way the system is set up forces you to participate in it, the same way slaves were forced to work. Not all chains are metal, but they bind the same way.
    • Kyan, on 06/26/2008, -1/+2OK, my time to rant. Any f****** idiot who says "We're slaves now too" and then proceeds to complain about being tied to government deserves to be sent to Georgia to work AS A SLAVE on a plantation.

      Seriously, while I have no problem with using the term slavery figuratively, when we are talking about real slavery, it is an insult to anyone who was actually a slave to compare your lot to theirs.

      In other words, save your income tax/government/property/system rants for another thread and keep it out of threads that are talking about REAL SLAVERY.

      Yeah, this kind of talk gets to me.
  • nosecohn, on 06/26/2008, -2/+5Douglas Blackmon just released a book about this phenomenon. Bill Moyers has a good interview with him:

    http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/06202008/watch2. ...

  • bacon_skoda, on 06/26/2008, -3/+3the author was on bill moyers last week.
    from the interview, he said....blacks from the south already knew this like it was yesterday (the ones that lived through it)...and his book basically confirms what they've been passing onto their children..their children would not believe it because slavery was ended after the civil war (as they were taught..."america was addicted to slavery"..even after slavery, the US had to find a way to have slave labor...even if by another name...
  • dhaugen, on 06/26/2008, -4/+3good try. im white im from georgia and im friends with plenty of black people, sure there are racist people but you get ***** heads like that everywhere. you should try getting all points of view of before judging a group based on stereotypes
  • flocktest, on 06/26/2008, -5/+1Ouch
  • huszar02, on 06/26/2008, -3/+1Slavery and forced servitude is legal as punishment for a crime according to the Constitution.
    • Abomonog, on 06/26/2008, -2/+3Yes and it is the one part of the constitution where the authors dropped the ball.

      It is one thing to commit a serious crime and get imprisoned for it but this law has been and still is abused widely.

      One example of that I have may actually be in this book.

      Around 1900 Birmingham Al. had two problems. Too many blacks roaming around and there were roads that had to be made. The city solved this problem by creating a law prohibiting anyone from having curls in their hair tighter than one inch. This enabled them to enslave a nice sized workforce that was all black.

      Alabama, Louisiana, Georgia, and Virginia all enacted laws designed merely to enslave blacks.
      • CoMpUtErITGuY, on 06/26/2008, -2/+2Worst comment today.
      • bacon_skoda, on 06/26/2008, -0/+2yes, according to the author, laws were made specifically to target blacks in the south.
        blacks were put in jail specifically to amass a forced labor force.
  • Bushlied, on 06/26/2008, -3/+5The mere fact that people actually think slavery is over is a joke. If your not apart of the 1%, your a slave no matter what race you are.

    Roman Senator suggesting that slaves should wear a 'white' armband in order to identify them. The response he received was that by doing so, the slaves would realize how many there were and would revolt.
    • mike17032, on 06/26/2008, -3/+1You have one sad ass life I guess. Maybe you shouldnt have ***** off so much, then you would have a better job and a better life.
  • amightywind, on 06/26/2008, -4/+2Chained slavery exists to this day. The point is, now it is a serious crime, must to the chagrin of slavery's democrat proponents.
  • CoMpUtErITGuY, on 06/26/2008, -2/+2Why shouldn't we use our prisoners to do forced labor? Make them do something useless instead of wasting my tax dollars.
  • mike17032, on 06/26/2008, -7/+2Sorry diggtards, but labor is not forced inside of prison. Nice try.
    • Hypersapien, on 06/26/2008, -0/+5It wasn't inside of a prison. Read the ***** article. Hell, for that matter, read the article summary at the top of this page.
  • banderwocky, on 06/26/2008, -1/+4That is rather horrific. I think a form of this exists today fueled by the private prison market.
  • Coventrian, on 06/26/2008, -2/+1I don't see a problem with thieves being forced to work to pay off their debt to those they stole from, maybe if there was a little more in the way of consequences there wouldn't be so much theft and crime, taking someone who has nothing and locking them up with a tv for 23 hours a day and giving them 3 meals a day doesn't sound so bad. I have been on unemployment benefit in England when I lost a job and trying to survive on $100 a week when you have bills of $250 week is no fun, I should have just done something silly and been locked up for six months.
    I have had no end of stuff stolen/destroyed by vandals, they never had to pay for any of the damage or items stolen, I think they should be forced to work to pay off the debt.
    • bacon_skoda, on 06/26/2008, -0/+3if you were unemployed in the south pre-1940, you would be locked up indefinitely and forced to work in a coal mine.
  • froek, on 06/26/2008, -0/+0 jkh
  • Barackalypse, on 06/26/2008, -1/+1Thankfully, in this country you don't get to decide what happens to me because you don't like what I said. I do appreciate you saying it though, it gives a lot of insight into the type of person you are. Its rather amusing to me that a guy that utterly goes off about slavery suggests another person should be put into it. I think the word for that is "hypocrite", although "tyrant" also fits.
    • danfive555, on 06/30/2008, -0/+1How many times are you gonna repeat that trite line?
      "Thankfully, in this country you don't get to decide what happens to me because you don't like what I said. I do appreciate you saying it though, it gives a lot of insight into the type of person you are."
      Thankfully I have canned lines to spam the ***** out of digg comments.
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