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48 Comments
- steinbeckgirl, on 10/12/2007, -6/+41Well no *****!? I'd show this article to Rumsfields backers but like the President, they don't like to read.
- gronne, on 10/12/2007, -7/+31@appleann
We started a war under false pretenses and have killed thousands of innocent Iraqi men, women and children. To most of the world, we're murderous thugs too. - steinbeckgirl, on 10/12/2007, -8/+32p.s- The President not liking to read are HIS words, not mine.
- brbubba, on 10/12/2007, -3/+25Try looking up the definition of torture. Don't mimic presidential idiocy and act like we aren't intelligent enough to pick up a dictionary and look up the meaning of the word. Instead of attacking the definition of the word, which is immutable at this point, try arguing why we need to torture people to achieve a goal. And therein lies the main problem, people aren't discussing why torture is necessary or whether it is even effective and how many of those tortured are innocent.
- starguy, on 10/12/2007, -5/+26Sleep deprivation & loud continuous noise is no joke, nor sitting or standing uncomfortably for hours. For anyone such as myself who has been subjected to this, consciously over months, and years at a time, in a US prison, I will tell you straight up to your face it is a hellish nightmare. A nightmare that no words can amply describe.
These things sounds harmless... in real everyday life, we miss lots of sleep on occasion, and enter noisy environments, and have to sit or stand for a long period of time waiting in lines or such. Its uncomfortable, but its not torture, because it eventually ends or you get some relief from it. You have some control over you reality, and can take steps to rectify the situation.
But in the context of torture, when it becomes torture, is when it goes on for days, weeks, years. In US prisons, you are systematically deprived of sleep, and it wears upon you severely. You find it difficult to think, to concentrate, you are fatigued, exhausted all the time. You are made to stand for hours at a time, in shoes with no padding, on concrete floors, and you walk in these same shoes. Sometimes you are made to hold your arms out. Try turning on your TV, and just stand in front of it, and watch it for a hour, with holding your arms out in the air, without relief, and see if you don't become tired.
The continuous noise, if you are a thinking human being, is the worst torture of all, at least it was for me. You think, oh, noise, no big deal, life is a noisy place. Yes, life is a noisy place, but in the context of torture, it is a big deal, its continuous noise. It crushes the thoughts in your head, crowds them out, its constant, never ending. It drives you mad and makes you stupid. You can't think, you can't concentrate. Trying to write an appeal under those conditions is an exercise in futility.
Maybe if I was lucky, I'd get maybe 30 minutes or an hour a week out on the yard in a cage, where nobody else was interesting in going either because it was drizzling or whatever. These were the most precious moments of all, because for those few minutes of silence, sitting on a basketball, I could try desperately to rebuild my conscious thoughts in the silence and actually hear myself think and have a conversation with myself in my head. You take this basic sanity for granted in real life, but in a US run prison, its torn and destroyed inside of you.
There is no worse torture, physical, or otherwise, in my mind, than constant, contours noise. Because it destroys the conscious train of thoughts inside of you, it destroys the very thing that separates you from the level of a zombie.
The horrendous thing about US prisons, is they have refined torture over hundreds of years, to let the concrete box do the work for them, so they can absolve their hands of the torture and say "we didn't lay a hand on you". Its totally bogus, they entirely create and control the environment.
If they need direct torture or something quicker than the passive methods of locking someone in a sensory deprivation box, they usually farm it out to third world con tries with a zeal for physical torture, through Extraordinary Rendition:
Extraordinary Rendition:
http://www.nyx.net/~mrstarr/anarchytv/watch.shtml?http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=4468413924829040031&hl=en
In Georgia, they have a device, they will lock you into for hours, where you sit on your heals against a wall with your arms behind your back. I have never been locked in such a device, but it is reputedly very painful. I was locked in a 4x4 foot shower once, which was just bizarre. I saw mean people beat ed up by guards; if you quoted the constitution, they would just take you around a corner and slam your head into a wall until you were unconscious.
I won my appeal so I can talk to you today about all this, but only because I fought back more ferocious than hell. If I hadn't had the basic education, or the support of my family and friends, or the will, or any money, I'd have gone mad by now and probably killed myself trying to claw and escape from those hellhole prisons with every force of my being. Its draconian, its obscene, its insane, the justice system in America. There is nothing just about it, its a huge industry based upon outlandish punitive justice.
I think for that year, out of 50,000 people for my state, I was the only one to win my appeal and escape "the right way", which I was deadset to do. Which made it a thousand times harder. Because once they are making $35,000 a year off of you, they have absolutely no compunction to let you out for any reason, innocent or not. - steinbeckgirl, on 10/12/2007, -6/+27It's not about sleep deprivation and you probably already know that. Rumsfield has always claimed that he knew nothing about any TORTURE. The buck has to stop somewhere. You need to remember that the same whackos that behead aren't necessarily the same guys much less the same affiliation to those inprisoned. Unfortunetly people like you like to lump all foreigners in the same group as "terrorists" if they don't look like you. What exactly does torture promote? What do you think it resolves?
- ZenMojo, on 10/12/2007, -4/+23TORTURE? We don't commit torture. We just redefined it last week.
- forgiste, on 10/12/2007, -1/+18@appleann1
I think you're missing the point. The point isn't whether or not they were tortured, the point is that Rumsfeld lied to the American public by saying he had no idea of what was going on there, when he actually okay'd it.
This isn't an argument over partisan politics, it's over basic human decency. Please stop trying to turn this against the "liberals". It has nothing to do with your affiliation. I wish conservatives and liberals could agree on what reality is, instead of blinding themselves with their damned political affiliation.
When you die, your party of choice is going to be irrelevant. Just be a human for christ's sake. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+19Try talking to a "been there done that" who's been through both levels of SERE. We. Torture. Some. Prisoners. And that is beyond any debate.
How many Guantanamo detainees have been charged with anything? Of that single digit number (out of how many thousands?), how many are charged with acts committed against guards while AT Gitmo? Hmm, I see.
Don't believe everything you're told, especially from a government that has a gross history of demonstrably lying to you. Be smarter than that, even if it's not what you want to hear. - ulyssesyt, on 10/12/2007, -2/+17and we supplied Saddam with the chemical weapons.
God Bless America. - Phatt138, on 10/12/2007, -4/+17Appleann - explain to me why 'murderous thugs' should follow the Geneva Convention when your even your Great Christian Fuhrer refuses to? If we're the moral standard - which you obviously consider us to be, because it's difficult for you to imagine a world in which your way of life isn't the only viable possibility - it's no wonder there are some horrific abuses in the world.
Furthermore, I'm not sure if you've ever suffered the intense psychological and emotional trauma that can come from some of these 'have-a-heart' torture techniques, but let me assure you that they're very real. Even if you're naive enough to assume that those techniques are the -only- ones our government's used in the past 10 years (which seems unlikely, since even kidnapped, unaffiliated Canadians have been flogged with metal cords and such), you still have to understand that breaking people mentally can be at least AS hurtful as physical pain.
At least they're quick about it. It takes our people 2 years and the possibility of discovery to release even the innocent.
Since you're so sure of our moral fortitude, let me leave you with a Biblical thought, one I'm sure you'll be familiar with: remove the plank from your own eye before seeking to help your fellow man. - kerplunk, on 10/12/2007, -4/+17Let's put Bush in jail too, for killing 1000+ US soliders by sending them to Iraq.
- wendelgee2, on 10/12/2007, -4/+16If you want to actually SEE this document Karpinski is referring to, it was part of this Frontline expose on America's torture practices called "The Torture Question," and it is available online.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/torture/view/ - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+14http://revcom.us/a/069/alyssa-en.html
Read it, it's short. Don't be so quick to dismiss what sort of things we're doing to detainees abroad, especially when our interrogators are offered the protection of secrecy to do so.
"According to the army documents obtained by Elston, Peterson participated in two interrogations of Iraqi prisoners at the end of August 2003 with her unit (in an area which is known as 'the cage'). After the second one, she told superiors that she “could not carry out” the interrogations and asked to be re-assigned. She was placed on duty at the base’s gate. Two weeks later, according to the account in the army documents Elston obtained, Peterson shot and killed herself with her rifle." - ulyssesyt, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11when we're willing to argue about the nuances of abuse and whether or not certain practices are "torture" or just plain beating the ***** out of someone--we've really lost all sense of what it means to be a human, haven't you?
- CatalystGhost, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth will make the whole world blind and toothless.
Sorry if the rest of the world has grown beyond the cave man view of "you hurt me, so I hurt you back". - patience, on 10/12/2007, -4/+13Rummy: I would not recommend taking any international trips.
I heard a couple of countries are thinking of trying you for war crimes. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+11I wish we would.
Hell, I hope we do. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9Why should they be? They made a ***** of money and who's gonna do anything about it?
This is the exact same cast of characters (Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Kissinger, Bushes) that ***** us all over in Vietnam and made a pile of money. Then after a brief respite with a "weak" left administration (Carter) we begged for the "strong" right (Reagen with aids (Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Kissinger, Bushes) to return and out-spend communism until it fell, making even more money during the arms build-ups of the 1980s with brief forays into Grenada, Panama, and Iraq 1 (where we left thousands to die after publicly promising to "do the right thing" in support of rebels who rose against Saddam, whom we had previously paid and armed with chemical weapons to fight Iran). After another respite with a "soft" left president (Clinton), we were all to happy to let (Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Kissinger, Bushes) continue ***** us over and make money fighting the Taliban - whom we had installed funded and armed to fight the Soviets. Notice a pattern?
It's horrible, but I've lost most of my sympathy for American. A people get the leadership they deserve, and apparently a majority of you are too stupid to see how this is an ongoing plan to ***** you.
A people ultimately get the leadership they deserve. - Hatious, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9Surprise surprise!
The Bush Administration and its supporters should be ashamed of themselves... something tells me they aren't. :( - unknownunknowns, on 10/12/2007, -4/+10Well, okay. As long as Jack Bauer says it's necessary.
/sarcasm - mjohnson2112, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7"Ms karpinski has her own agenda, it's called saving her ass."
Yeah, I guess she should take the humiliation of following orders like a man, huh? Think about those reservists who are doing prison time for a second... for doing what they were told to.
That's Rummy leadership. Got us where we are now. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7Wow.. are you quoting someone else's story, or was this firsthand? How did this happen?
- steinbeckgirl, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6And I have read many more military accounts say that torture doesn't work. Negotiating with the prisoners to see their loved ones, etc work. If you torture someone they will tell you anything you want to hear in order to get you to stop. Why have some prisoners been released? Due to lack of evidence.
- Tangaroa, on 10/12/2007, -6/+10Actually, it is partially about sleep deprivation because that is one form of torture. The legal limit on US behaviour is not how nicely the cruelest of our enemies treat our prisoners, but the law, primarily international law. The law, prior to congress's ex post facto and hence irrelevant attempts to forgive and cover up this administration's activities, is clear that any form of torture is illegal. Precedent shows that soldiers convicted of torturing prisoners can be stripped of rank or receive jail time. With torture as widespread policy, the failure to see mass convictions of personnel and leadership shows the Bush Administration's contempt for the law, as does the use of contractors in an attempt to skirt military law. Regardless the law, the moral limit on US behaviour is to forbid any act of cruelty or disrespect towards prisoners.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -4/+8Here is his previous response to another thread:
"I see pigs speeding past me all the time, obviously not in pursuit of anything or on call to get to anywhere fast, just speeding for the sake of speeding, and it riles me so much I want to make a citizens arrest, or at least film them and make a compilation of it. Radio Shack a while back had a closeout on a radar gun (for example, used to test baseball pitches I imagine, or speedway racing) for $70 and I was so tempted to buy it, and mount it with a video camera inside my car and film all these hypocritical law breakers."
Seems like he lives in the US. - ulyssesyt, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5you know, i think if every ranking General in every branch of the ***** US mIlitary coud say "Rumsfeld is an amoral, asinine, talentless and evil tool", the Bush Administration would say "oh, we have complete confidence in Donny."
oh, except that they fired him.
and Bush said "I listen to my Generals, they're the experts."
kicking the Bushies is like ducks in a barrel. where do you start? - Stonedonkey, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4I think they fired him not because he was unpopular but because he admitted to the lack of connection between Saddam and al Qaeda. He obviously wasn't "on message" because Cheney was still pushing that claim for a couple weeks after Rumsfeld refuted it. I think it was also a way of throwing a bone to the Democractic majority, who would likely have made an ugly spectacle of having him thrown out of the government.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3what do you expect from someone that openly believes in propaganda.
dark ages - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -4/+5Which country do you live in, also? You didn't make that clear..
Edit: Please, don't mod comments down for no good reason. I'm just asking an honest question. - acernec, on 10/12/2007, -4/+5I only wish I could have an hour with this old man terrorist alone in an undisclosed location to review his terrorist interrogation tactics.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -6/+4As soon as the United States dips Iraqies into a wood chipper, I'll join the insurgency. Its these blind exagerations that stand in the way of understanding between two parties and humans in general. If people did not exaggerate blindly, I'd be opposing people like Rumsfeld a lot more whereas I am forced to defend him against moronic statements.
- JonForTheWin, on 10/12/2007, -7/+4Damn terrorist.
- Glidedon, on 10/12/2007, -4/+1how ironic..
- craig870, on 10/12/2007, -6/+2@starguy
Well I'm guessing the best way to avoid all that ***** is to not break the law. Its not supposed to be a trip to the country club. The way I see it is if you break the law and go to prison the only right you should have is to breathe in and out. If you act up then you should be punished. Oh yeah you didn't break the law right? - omegajb, on 10/12/2007, -5/+1You liberals are a bunch of pussies, sleep deprivation is not torture. What would you like them to do? Ask the question 3 times and of course they will answer.
Get a grip, move out of your mothers basement and use your head. - craig870, on 10/12/2007, -7/+2Gotta tell ya....I really don't give a big steam'n pile of ***** if they do torture them. I also dont give a ***** if that idiot lied about it. Do you think that these terrorists want to sit down and have a cold one with you. Hell no they want to gut you or maybe something a bit more gentle like behead you with a butcher knife. They dont give a damn what your views are. You dont share theirs so your to be killed in the most painful way they can think of. It was that way before we invaded Iraq and it is that way now. Why dont you try taking a peek out mom and dads front door and get a sniff of the real world. Bunch of skirt wearing splittails. Now digg away I've got my swimmies on.
- way2muchsense, on 10/12/2007, -7/+2When certain members of the Iraqi insurgency have been reported to have slowly dipped US troops into a wood chipper just to hear him scream in terror, because we apparently no longer heed the Geneva Conventions, will you be calling for the US to respond in kind?
- afrik, on 10/12/2007, -7/+2he's gone now.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -7/+2Hmm damn that Rumsfeld! I bet he was the one who impregnated Lyndie England too.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -8/+2Wrong reply. Sorry.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -12/+4"I think you're missing the point. The point isn't whether or not they were tortured, the point is that Rumsfeld lied to the American public by saying he had no idea of what was going on there, when he actually okay'd it."
Here is what Rumsfeld said:
"These events occurred on my watch as secretary of defense. I am accountable for them. I take full responsibility, I feel terrible about what happened to these detainees. They are human beings, they were in U.S. custody, our country had an obligation to treat them right. We didn't. That was wrong. To those Iraqis who were mistreated by members of the U.S. armed forces, I offer my deepest apology. We're functioning in a — with peacetime restraints, with legal requirements in a war-time situation, in the information age, where people are running around with digital cameras and taking these unbelievable photographs and then passing them off, against the law, to the media, to our surprise, when they had not even arrived in the Pentagon."
He apologized for any abuse. He said he was aware of no torture. Abuse and torture are different things. Abuse - "maltreatment: cruel or inhumane treatment." Torture - "agony: intense feelings of suffering; acute mental or physical pain." Remember guys, these people are not there for ticket violations. We need to get information about them to save the lives of people. Including Iraqi civilians, many of whom as you are so quick to point out have died. They will not just hand over the information to us. I consider "sleep deprivation, standing for long periods, loud music, and sitting uncomfortably" as acceptable means of getting information. I understand it is worse than it sounds, but it is not the same as cutting peoples fingers and limbs off.
But - Rumsfeld disagrees with me. He has taken responsibility and apologized for all these things.
-----------
"The sad thing is those guys (Rumsfeld, Bush, Cheney, etc.) won't be trialed for their crimes. They deserve to die as much as, if not more then Saddam."
Think about what you just said. Saddam tortured and killed his own citizens in the most brutal ways possible. He did not just kill "enemies of the state," he killed their spouses, children and even cousins.
In the Iran - Iraq war, 500,000 people died. Over 200,000 disappeared to the gulag, the secret police force of Saddam. The death toll in Iraq, that has any kind of credibility (meaning excepting that 600,000+ poll, if you trust that then just get on with it and digg me down) is 53014 at http://iraqbodycount.org.
You are saying that Bush, Cheney and Rumsfield, who may be war profiteers are worse than Saddam. Look above, the numbers do not add up. And you should keep in mind that those who died in the gulag died horrible deaths after torture.
When you reply or digg me up or down, try to be non-partisan. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -13/+2May I ask what you did to get into such a prison? May I also ask which prison you would rather be. Russian, Iraqi, Irani, Cuban, or American?
- DCMacHead, on 10/12/2007, -16/+4@appleann
boy my thumb sure is getting tired from digging all the seditious libs down. - zerodamage, on 10/12/2007, -18/+3I call ***** on this one. The word "Abuses" is supposed to make people think that the so called "torture" that took place there was approved by Rumsfeld which is crap. This quote states what was allowed which are common techniques used for acquiring information. They are far from torture. Friggin idiots.
"The methods consisted of making prisoners stand for long periods, sleep deprivation ... playing music at full volume, having to sit in uncomfortably ... Rumsfeld authorized these specific techniques."
The article's title and supposed point is completely bogus as proven by this paragraph of the same article. - appleann1, on 10/12/2007, -33/+8This is not torture. Brian Ross of ABC News (hardly a conservative), an investigative reporter with inside information has reported that these COERCIVE methods have saved thousands of lives. There is no point trying to reason with people who will always believe that the U.S.(that has liberated millions of people, with nothing in return) is the bad guy.
steinbeckgirl: Gitmo holds the worst of the worst, just read up on any one who has been there and witnessed this.
But then again you probably already knew that. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -32/+5You peoples priorities are all out of ***** whack…
Dirty for Dirty! - appleann1, on 10/12/2007, -50/+7Wow, sleep deprivation, standing for long periods, loud music, and the ultimate punishment, sitting uncomfortably. Sure beats the courtesy they show our captives, cutting off heads and gouging out eyes. Ms karpinski has her own agenda, it's called saving her ass.
Isn't it a shame these murderous thugs don't follow the Geneva Convention.
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