What is Digg?196 Comments
- vroom101, on 10/11/2007, -8/+96How are we ever going to pay that off?
US $1,000 - I understand.
US $1,000,000 - I'm wavering in my understanding.
US $1,000,000,000 - Put that number in terms of monthly bandwidth then my understanding faints.
US $1,000,000,000,000 - What is this number? Does it really exist mathematically? I understand not.
It's time to call Credit Counseling. - PoptartKing, on 10/11/2007, -0/+60an actual government organization sollicits donations through a P.O. Box in West Virginia? what in the nine levels of hell.
- duncandog, on 10/11/2007, -9/+67Two problems here: 1. The magnitude of the problem is incomprehensible to everyone. The numbers are too big. 2. No one gets elected by telling everyone they need to take medicine and have pain. It's too easy to make promises that you don't have to keep. Our society has taken the word accountability from its vocabulary.
In 2006, the US government had a current account deficit of $1trillion. That means it spent $1trillion more than came in. We finance this deficit by getting other countries to buy our debt. Our biggest creditor is China - financing our trade deficit. I wonder what happens when they stop buying our debt?
Enjoy life now, because the man will be coming around in 20 to 30 years to collect. - workfaster, on 10/11/2007, -13/+59We are screwing our children. We must hate them intensely. Republicans have effectively attacked Dems as "tax and spend" liberals for years. The sad truth is that when they took power, Republicans simply became "spend and spend" conservatives. They didn't even have the decency to pay for their wars and pork. Dems will probabaly act like responsible adults and once again start requiring government to pay as it goes: collect taxes (gasp!)... and the Republicans will villify and crucify them for it.
Since when did "conservative values" equate to "screwing our children"?
Dems and Republicans should suppport pay as you go. - logicize, on 10/11/2007, -51/+90We need Ron Paul before it's too late.
- dukeeeey, on 10/11/2007, -2/+32USA = Enron
- cogitocogito, on 10/11/2007, -0/+27FTA: "Unfunded promises made for Medicare, Social Security and federal retirement programs account for 85% of taxpayer liabilities."
Obviously what will happen is the eligibility requirements for benefits will continue to stiffen, but at some point at a greatly accelerated pace. There will be no collapse, but a generation will get screwed. Which one is the question.
(There will be no financial collapse because "unfunded promises", which is what the article measures, is distinct from "legal obligations". The upshot is that China and other holders of debt instruments will get paid but many American citizens won't get the benefits they've "paid for"). - corporate70, on 10/11/2007, -19/+45Thank you Franklin D. Roosevelt for taking the US off of the Gold Standard and permitting deficits.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/history/presidents/fr32.html - thcobbs, on 10/11/2007, -0/+23@Terr01
That's why I don't even consider SS to be real. I see it as just a drain from my paycheck that I will never see. I've accepted it. I've moved on and made plans for myself. Now, I just wish I could "opt out" of SS and have them stop taking any MORE money out of my check since I won't be using it.
I'm not saying I don't want to pay SS tax, I don't want to pay any more than I currently am. That way, I can help the government keep the promise it made to all the people currently on SS, but I don't want anyone having to carry me when I get older. I'm only in my 20's and I'm already saving for retirement. - jeffiek, on 10/11/2007, -15/+36"Dems will probabaly act like responsible adults"
Does Guinness have a record for "most gullible"? - cogitocogito, on 10/11/2007, -4/+25Focus. This issue has little to do with currency. The vast majority of what the article measures is "unfunded promises" for medicare, social security, and federal pensions. One could just as easily make unfunded promises under the gold standard (and leave the mess to future Congresses and administrations). The American people just aren't checking to see if the government can pay for what it promises them.
- vroom101, on 10/11/2007, -9/+29Verbatim -- cut-n-paste -- Via: http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/resources/faq/faq_publicdebt.htm
Financing the Debt
Why does the debt sometimes decrease?
The Public Debt Outstanding decreases when there are more redemptions of Treasury securities than there are issues.
How do you make a contribution to reduce the debt?
Make your check payable to the Bureau of the Public Debt, and in the memo section, notate that it is a Gift to reduce the Debt Held by the Public. Mail your check to:
Attn Dept G
Bureau Of the Public Debt
P. O. Box 2188
Parkersburg, WV 26106-2188 - pp7k, on 10/11/2007, -0/+18May I just say Bravo! to the submitter bkedersha for linking to the "print it" page rather than the original article. No adds, more readable, less crap. You should all try to do this when submitting.
- williamdyer, on 10/11/2007, -2/+20Dood. Sorry, but Romney LOST my vote. I've met him in person. I gave money to the Republicans in Massachusetts he was raising money for at the time. He is likable and intelligent. While I would be delighted to invest in a VC fund he is running, after his remarks about "double Guantanamo" and his fave book being "Battlefield Earth" I'm too creeped our to vote for him.
McCain (Captain Queeg), and Ghouliani are worse.
I'm a moderate Republican who has always voted for mainstream candidates. But this, time, I have to go with Ron Paul. - youser, on 10/11/2007, -2/+18If I read this article correctly, every american household should cough up half a million dollars if any of yous wants a secure pension, any social security or medicare. In other words, yer screwed. Well that's it then, the decline of the empire. And who was responsible for the destruction of the U.S.A.? Those nasty terrorists? Fidel Castro? Putin? All wrong! No, you can thank your own government for that.
- Cerialthriller, on 10/11/2007, -16/+31if this ron paul guy is so great why is the only place i ever hear about him on digg?
- inactive, on 10/11/2007, -7/+21Why would anyone fund our debt---unless--unless they expect to own us? Do creditors become preferred equity holders?
- Terr01, on 10/11/2007, -1/+15If you mean Social Security... it's back to talking about a "lock box". Government's been borrowing from itself, basically. Or rather, borrowing from one bank account (legally reserved to pay for people as they retire) and using it to pay for other things so they don't need to raise taxes. But in the next few decades they'll need to start paying back what they borrowed or else there won't be money in that SS account that should be there to make payments.
- pianomahnn, on 10/11/2007, -6/+20The President doesn't create the deficit. Rather, it's Congress that approves and writes the budget which the President then signs. If you want to blame someone, blame those that have been are are still in Congress.
Note, I'm not in any way supporting the current monkey's ass which holds the office of the President of the United States. - alittleroy101, on 10/11/2007, -3/+14Man I feel like a total rookie with only ~$25,000 in credit and school debt.
Better get spending... - jdoo, on 10/11/2007, -0/+11@moogle516
The loss of $11,434 per household was for one year. The $516,348 is the total amount owed per household.
Do you only consider the minimum monthly payment on your credit card when evaluating your finances? - williamdyer, on 10/11/2007, -2/+12You started out pretty good until you got to the part about Democrats being any better.
The probalem is mainly the neocons and their war. They succeeded in being more profligate than Democrats. Real Republicans hate spending money. - duncandog, on 10/11/2007, -1/+11You miss the point of the USA Today article. If it were as simple as the "deficit" - then we would just be screwed. But the government is hiding trillions of debt on top of the deficit. And many of these liabilities can't be easily legislated away. For example - there was a table in the original article on the usatoday.com website showing the breakdown of the debt. The breakdown of the $516k per household $27k per household (about $3trillion) for federal and state retirees pension obligations. You see - the government exempts itself from having to report pension obligations as a current expense. It makes it easier with states with balance budget amendments to balance the budget. So - if we just add this pension obligation to the real deficit - the national debt jumps over 40%.
- JamesWilson, on 10/11/2007, -7/+17@cerialthriller (#6934797)
Ron Paul on:
6/4/07 - The Daily Show
6/5/07 - CNN GOP Debates
6/13/07 - The Colbert Report - BESTenemy, on 10/11/2007, -1/+11 We've been generating interest in the federal debt almost since the FED had been established in 1913. It's not too late, and by that I mean we can either start paying back what we owe at the same rate we've been generating debt (which is impossible). Or we could elect a president that would shut down FED and IRS and write off our debt that we have on paper, but still not being able to eliminate the deficit. Instead offsetting the responsibility for sustaining ourselves onto ourselves. That's what Ron Paul implies. Government should be able to allow, without subsidizing. Like stem cell research.
Those that are trying to push legalization aren't trying to get permission as much as they're trying to get federal, tax-subsidized funding for their work. Ron Paul's idea is to say: "Fine go ahead! Put up a fund-raiser! Seek investors. Divert internal funds. Bug your State, if you have to. Federal system is a universal bailout fund."
That is the only way to cut taxes and set us on course to recovery without generating more debt.
We have a debt. Those that are asking whether it's too late or not should know that it is, indeed, never too late to quit borrowing and start paying back. However, since we owe to the organization that isn't exactly constitutional, we can, sort of, cheat. Declare them a fraud and get away "sort of", eliminating the possibility of ever getting a bailout like this again.
The lesson is simple: "Don't buy what you cannot afford and if you want to run away from debt, don't hope on being able to borrow ever again." - SocialPoison, on 10/11/2007, -0/+9thcobbs is absolutely right.
A smart person would be putting away a significant amount in 401k and Roth IRAs. Contribute your max to get company match for your 401k (if you have that beneifit) and then shoot for maxing your Roth every year (in '07 the max for under 50 year olds is $5,000). If you can pull that off you'll be in good shape for retirement. And the earlier you start the better.
You've GOT to save for yourself... because every generation is being forced to play Russian Roulette with their Social Security.
I'm a youngin' (early 20s)... and the outlook is quite bleak. - EarlOfLade, on 10/11/2007, -21/+30You gotta be kidding me?
Do you really think that a rabid libertarian like this gonzo would do anything?
This is not something that can be fixed by a single person, if you think that, then you need both a Politics 101 and Economy 101.
If you want to fix this, you need to:
1. Raise taxes
2. Reduce trade deficits with foreign countries, and that means creating a lot more manufacturing jobs in USA
3. Reduce the military by at least 75%
4. Drop all major military investments planned for the nest 4 decades
5. Remove all tax breaks, esp for the rich and make them pay taxes.
6. Create maximum prices for let's say the pharma industry so that less money goes to fat cats and more to down payment on debt.
7. Create a lot more toll roads so money can be used to pay debt...
And so forth and Ron Paul will do none of this.
How the hell do you think he would fix the problem? More tax breaks? LOL - zarex, on 10/11/2007, -8/+17@earloflade:
You flunked econ 101. The vast, vast majority of this debt is due to entitlements, such as medicare, social security, and welfare. The military expenditures, tax cuts for the risk, and everything else you list are absolutely minuscule compared to the entitlements. That's the real problem. - irvman21, on 10/11/2007, -6/+15The government isn't "hiding" anything related to this. Everybody who doesn't live under a rock, in a cave, with their head up their ass has known for years that SS and Medicare, as they are currently implemented, will bankrupt the country. This article just states the completely obvious in a different way than it is normally presented.
- williamdyer, on 10/11/2007, -1/+9The numbers are alarming, and the money we really have to pay off is bad enough. But these numbers assume we will continue to fund entitlement programs as generously as before, and to pay as generous government pensions as before. Everything other than a bond is easy to renege on. Cutting bureaucrat pensions isn't going to ding our bond rating. In fact, doing it sooner would probably lower interest rates and help our debt load.
But the hardcore debt is still frightening enough. One reason we MUST end the war is that it is selling our children into tax slavery. Well your's, anyway. Mine have second passports and can skip out when it becomes too burdensome. - heptahedron, on 10/11/2007, -5/+13@cogitocogito
Inflation and/or devaluation of the dollar can mean that the U.S won't have to repay even its legal obligations. If we repay our debts with tomorrow's dollars and tomorrow's dollars are worth less, then its easy to repay the debt. It's not hard for currency to be worth 10X, 100X (even 10,000,000,000X) less over a period of years. A 100X inflation/devaluation would convert that $500k debt/U.S. citizen into a $5k debt.
The Chinese are buying U.S. debt because they have to. As long as Chinese government tries to keep the Yuan artificially low, the Chinese will find that they'll have a surplus of dollars that they can't convert to Yuan. If the silly trade negotiators do succeed in making the Chinese boost the Yuan, it will mean that the Chinese won't need to lend money to the U.S. anymore. But the Chinese are, in some ways, trapped by their low Yuan policy. If they let the Yuan appreciate, it means that they will lose a lot of money on the $1.3 Trillion in U.S. investments/debt that they currently hold. - heptahedron, on 10/11/2007, -0/+8Nice, but not good enough by a long shot. The Forbes 400 richest people in the world only have a total on $1.25 Trillion (we'll assume that the U.S can confiscate the Sultan of Brunei's wealth, too). That wealth sounds like a lot, but its only about $10,000 per U.S. household. In other words, it would cover only 2% of the total debt.
As popular as "soak the rich" may be, there aren't enough rich people to solve the problem. - Comatose51, on 10/11/2007, -1/+9@heptahedron: You do know that China is starting a 1.2 trillion dollar hedge fund right? Like someone else said, the creditor is about to become the equity holder. BTW, 1.2 trillion dollars is enough to pay for the war in Iraq twice or fix social security for the next 75 years and finance one war on Iraq with change left over to buy Walmart. Forget Spanish, we're going to have to start teaching our kids Mandarin because that's what their future employers might be speaking. Say "ni hao"
- Haxnn, on 10/11/2007, -0/+7Expenses don't go on the balance sheet, they go on the income statement. Liabilities go on the balance sheet.
I think you need to take a look at the accounting process for pension accounting. Future tax collection is no different than future revenue for a corporation (basically it's irrelevant in both situations). Your future obligations are forecasted and then discounted to what is needed today to cover them - that is your liability.
Simplistically, if you put a trillion dollars on your balance sheet today and the majority of the money isn't due for 15+ years, the forecasted obligation is probably over 4 trillion dollars. - chili555, on 10/11/2007, -1/+8Anybody, Chinese or not, including all us Diggers, can show up, personally or through a broker, and buy US bonds and notes at auction. The US does not intend specifically to sell debt to China. It intends to sell debt to the highest bidder. Hate that the Chinese buy a very substantial percentage of US debt? Deprive them of it, then, by out-bidding them at auction. Myself, I can do better with my investment dollars than 4.6%.
- smartalecks, on 10/11/2007, -2/+9Sell all of George Bush's and his cronies' properties. ALL of it. Then drop the bastards on the streets of Baghdad and forget about them.
- Afreyt, on 10/11/2007, -0/+6Well, that sucks for the government. I'm not going to pay it, I can't, and I'll leave the country first before I let myself become an indentured servant.
- stoutej, on 10/11/2007, -1/+7Government spending without taxes is just deferred taxes in which the tax payer is not specified. Either the government needs to default on its debts (thus taxing the debt holders) or it will have to tax some other group of people to pay the debts. The effect is the same either way. Somebody must be robbed to pay for the current activities.
- swifty383, on 10/11/2007, -5/+11I wonder if some of the commenters here were the same who were praising Obama for his universal healthcare plan. We can't have it both ways. We have to start cutting major programs, not adding them.
- CrappedCrusader, on 10/11/2007, -6/+12Horray! The government's broken! Let's privatize!
- sentime, on 10/11/2007, -1/+7I am running for president.
I promise all americans their own personal doctor, car, house, omg their own spaceship and free land on the moon + mars.
I shall win for sure!! - williamdyer, on 10/11/2007, -0/+6"double Guantanamo"
"my favorite book is Battlefield Earth"
Just when people get over the wierdness of Mormonism, he cranks the wierdness up to 11. - insanebrain, on 10/11/2007, -3/+9- "You want to kill an economy?"
What economy ??? You mean the system of spending money you don't have and let China pick up the check ?? That's not an economy. The biggest reason why other countries pick up the check is because of the stupid dollar... and that will be fixed in the next few years by the Euro. America thinks it's becoming an Empire, but all it does is dig it's own grave. And to be honest, because of what America has been doing the last 10 years, I couldn't care less. - thewump, on 10/11/2007, -4/+10My household owes $500k+ on the national dept and I don't even have a Porsche GT to show for it.
- lvbuckeye, on 10/11/2007, -0/+6i propose to end government subsidies, get rid of corporate lobbies and special interest groups, and get rid of all these unnecessary federal programs. bureaucracy doesn't work
- itsameericle, on 10/11/2007, -0/+6I don't see what's so wrong with requiring our government to balance its budget, with the one caveat (for people who insist on wars) of allowing the budget to go over if, and only if congress declares war. Seems pretty simple to me.
P.S. I pay my 7.5 percent SS+Medicare/Medicaid but I seriously have expected nothing for a while now.....absolutely nothing. - ichbinladen, on 10/11/2007, -1/+7To borrow a bit from Ross Perot: That giant sucking sound you hear is America's future going down the drain.
- michaelb1, on 10/11/2007, -1/+7Guess my kids won't have money left over to help me out when I am old.
They will still be paying for the policies of our inept leaders. - m00dy, on 10/11/2007, -0/+5USA was too powerfull for its own good. Looks like the USA is going to take down the USA.
- inactive, on 10/11/2007, -2/+7And the only we can pay that debt is by printing more money. This is what's know as a pyramid or ponzi scheme and it is the end result of ever fiat money system ever used in world history. The US will be no different, the economy will crash as sure as the sun will rise tomorrow, the only question is when.
This is exactly what happened in Germany after WW1 and now the grandsons of the people who crashed the mark are here in America doing the same thing. In Germany this led to the rise of Hitler, what the hell is going to happen here? -
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