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Robert S. McNamara Dies

wcbs880.com — McNamara served as secretary of defense during the Vietnam war under presidents Kennedy and Johnson.

Who dugg this? Made popular Jul 6, 2009

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  • SRSco, on 07/06/2009, -12/+129I highly recommend the documentary/interview Fog of War with McNamara. Say what you will about the guy and Vietnam, but his insights on war (in his later age) are mature and thoughtful. I really learned to respect and admire him after seeing this movie.
  • Pauli92, on 07/06/2009, -3/+72 Robert McNamara's eleven life lessons:

    1. Empathize with your enemy
    2. Rationality will not save us
    3. There's something beyond one's self
    4. Maximize efficiency
    5. Proportionality should be a guideline in war
    6. Get the data
    7. Belief and seeing are often both wrong
    8. Be prepared to reexamine your reasoning
    9. In order to do good, you may have to engage in evil
    10. Never say never
    11. You can't change human nature
  • bodylanguage, on 07/06/2009, -5/+68"Fog of War", in full: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgjF3dvhyoA
  • JimSwarthow, on 07/06/2009, -18/+62oh I see, so 30 years after the fact he says "oops, with hindsight I guess we prolly shouldn't have invaded S.E Asia!" and you guys bust out the "awww, he's sowrry and he sounwds liwike a weally nice guy" - pfft! f**k all this apologist bullsh*t. 58,000 dead Americans folks. count 'em if you've got the stomach.

    McNamara & Johnson made Rumsfeld & GW look like Girl Scouts.
  • inactive, on 07/06/2009, -1/+40My favorite quote from Mcnamara:
    "I want to say, and this is very important: at the end we lucked out. It was luck that prevented nuclear war. We came that close to nuclear war at the end. Rational individuals: Kennedy was rational; Khrushchev was rational; Castro was rational. Rational individuals came that close to total destruction of their societies. And that danger exists today."
  • Pinkertinkle, on 07/06/2009, -12/+44he lived a lot longer than all those soldiers he sent to their pointless deaths
  • inactive, on 07/06/2009, -5/+36It took a lot of integrity to do what he did in later years and denounce the err of vietnam. He considers himself a war criminal - that shows character.
  • inactive, on 07/06/2009, -5/+34The Fog of War is excellent.
  • Homerr, on 07/06/2009, -3/+31McNamara could have been stubborn and denied his role in the Vietnam War, but in Fog of War he questions decisions he made. This doesn't vindicate him, but it does show he was thinking about it and that the weight of the decisions did have an impact on the man.

    I'd love to see this sort of intellectual honesty in the future from recently former politicians.
  • depro9, on 07/06/2009, -5/+29“We burned to death 100,000 Japanese civilians in Tokyo — men, women and children,” Mr. McNamara recalled; some 900,000 Japanese civilians died in all. “LeMay said, ‘If we’d lost the war, we’d all have been prosecuted as war criminals.’ And I think he’s right. He — and I’d say I — were behaving as war criminals.”

    “What makes it immoral if you lose and not immoral if you win?”
    - Robert S. McNamara
  • analogkid01, on 07/06/2009, -0/+24To anyone whose worldview extends beyond inane celebrity gossip...yes.
  • pr0lixity, on 07/06/2009, -3/+26Finally, an important "celebrity" death. This guy changed history, whether you liked him or not.
  • BlueConcept, on 07/06/2009, -4/+27My class spoke with him in Post WWII, and when I called him out for supporting the war at the time, he brought the class to tears by confessing that over years of self contemplation, he had come to the conclusion that he was a war criminal, responsible for the vast majority of deaths in the war. Personally, I feel an immense amount of respect for somebody who can accept so much responsibility for such a bloody and complicated conflict, if only because it rarely happens with other people.
  • GorfTron, on 07/06/2009, -0/+22#11 makes the previous 10 almost moot.
  • inactive, on 07/06/2009, -5/+23FINALLY!!
    A famous person that die naturaly!
  • gitargr8, on 07/06/2009, -2/+20More like 2 million Vietnamese dead (both North and South). But since McNamara thought the war was not winnable and advised Johnson to end it, I don't think we can put the blame on him.
  • heaintheavy, on 07/06/2009, -2/+15What exactly would have a win looked like? If I may ask?
  • MrWolf, on 07/06/2009, -0/+12During my studies I did a paper about the Cuban missile crisis, and I read the entire transcript of Kennedy's Executive Committee of the National Security Council, which lasted several days. It was an incredible insight in the decision making process with JFK, Bobby Kennedy, Johnson, and of course McNamara. What I remember is that the guy had an amazing capacity to summarize options, asses potential outcomes, etc. It was high politics and he demonstrated his logical, dispassionate and rational thinking. He even sometimes show some empathy:
    "In a sudden rush of doubts, McNamara turned to an entirely different level of concern, fearing that the group hadn’t enough considered the consequences of the actions they were considering: “I don’t know quite what kind of world we live in after we’ve struck Cuba and we’ve… we’ve started it.”
  • depro9, on 07/06/2009, -3/+14Maybe, but in the end he owned up to what he was a part of & you can't say that about many war criminals on the planet today.
  • inactive, on 07/06/2009, -0/+10Patton, MacArthur, and Halsey all would have agreed with No.1.-that goes back to Sun Tzu.

    You're confusing empathy with sympathy, you dumbasses.
  • Coffeedemon, on 07/06/2009, -0/+10Bit weak on history and politics given your screen name, eh?
  • babyheadout, on 07/06/2009, -3/+13This was during a celebrity deaths thread on Skype:
    [7/1/2009 2:19:55 PM] (Me) says: My money is on this guy dying at the end of this year: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_mcnamara
    [7/1/2009 2:20:26 PM] (Co-worker) says: the figure skater?

    /big Fog Of War fan, even ripped the DVD audio to my iPod, as well as the bonus content
  • adam07, on 07/06/2009, -3/+12I came here to say the same thing. We watched Fog of War in my American Foreign Policy class and I must say he is one of the smartest men to have served in our government. Even though all of his policies weren't successful his advice is still very relevant today (especially thinking from your enemy's perspective, aka strategic thinking). He also came across as a very honest man, much more so than say, Donald Rumsfeld.

    When there were protesters at the Pentagon he had the army sent out to block their entrance but made sure than NONE of their guns were loaded. Quite admirable.
  • AnotherCanadian, on 07/06/2009, -2/+11I watched Fog of War pretty recently and really admired his openness. He didn't seem like a typical politician and came across as trust-worthy and had some really fascinating stories.
  • Frixionburne, on 07/06/2009, -3/+12If it dies, it gets on Digg!
  • projectbadass, on 07/06/2009, -15/+24Good riddance. Hope Kissinger is next.
  • Suzilla, on 07/06/2009, -1/+10I think the Vietnamese death toll went up sharply once Nixon got into office and, at Kissinger's urging, stepped up the use of carpet-bombing. It was also during the Nixon administration that Agent Orange became the defoliant (and carcinogen) of choice.
  • zeitgueist, on 07/06/2009, -0/+9We should never have been in that war.
  • inactive, on 07/06/2009, -1/+9Those kittens probably deserved it.
  • usaar33, on 07/07/2009, -0/+8uh, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_McNamara#From_ ...
    "In the mid-1950s, McNamara opposed Ford's planned Edsel automobile and worked to stop the program even before the first car rolled off the assembly line. He eventually succeeded in ending the program in November 1959. "
  • brosen, on 07/06/2009, -3/+11McNamara was one of the most polarizing figures in American history. The role he played during the Vietnam War was instrumental in many of the foreign policy decisions that we have made since then and will continue to make. His actions during a very tough time in American history have made, and will continue to make, an indelible impact on all Americans. Even though McNamara, and the other people making decisions with him, did not make the correct decisions all the time, the decisions they made have shaped the United States and the decision making of the United States in the realm of the Defense department. I did not grow up with McNamara, because I was born in the 90s, but I feel that he made the tough decisions that he had to make. He understood his faults and "owned" up to them, and that is an extremely nobel move. Thank you for your work Mr. McNamara and Rest in Peace.
  • JimSwarthow, on 07/06/2009, -3/+11so if you go into work tomorrow and everyone is gathered around the conference table chopping the heads off of kittens you'll have no choice but to join them? what sort of milquetoast human-being are you?
  • Suzilla, on 07/06/2009, -5/+12I would agree with you but for the fact that he would have made an excellent witness at Henry Kissinger's trial for war crimes.
  • wendelgee2, on 07/06/2009, -0/+7which statue are you referring to?
  • inactive, on 07/06/2009, -3/+10No, that was Truman & then Eisenhower. Kennedy just put more in there, then Johnson put even more, and Nixon finally pulled us out.
  • bmcnally, on 07/06/2009, -0/+7If you liked the movie, read the book written by Robert Kennedy.
  • ElBearde, on 07/06/2009, -0/+7Occupation of Cambodia, Laos, and North Vietnam and a few hundred thousand more dead civilians and soldiers. In other words, it was never meant to be victorious, just to remind the communists that someone was going to impede the spread of their ideology.
  • Rudegar, on 07/06/2009, -3/+10I think the R is for rot
  • JimSwarthow, on 07/06/2009, -5/+1120/20, thanks for asking . - so you were a supporter of the Vietnam War? why? (please elaborate)

    - "hindsight" my azz, anyone who didn't see the hand-writing on the wall in 1965 needs glasses and a really big clue.
  • pintomp3, on 07/06/2009, -19/+25Good. He did a lot to further the agenda of the corporatocracy and bring more suffering to poor people around the world.
  • ericdano, on 07/06/2009, -2/+8integrity? That is something he had none of. How about realizing your plan sucked when we started suffering 10,000+ deaths?
  • gerrylazlo, on 07/06/2009, -0/+6One of my favs. Robert was definitely getting some demons off of his chest with that. Although it's unfortunate that the lessons he learned from vietnam were the same ones we learned all over again with Iraq. Somebody should have read his book!
  • MixMastaKooz, on 07/06/2009, -1/+7Redemption isn't a dirty word. Especially if you use your mistakes to educate those who come after you.
  • heaintheavy, on 07/06/2009, -1/+6Right after bombing the ***** out Laos and Cambodia.
  • ElBearde, on 07/06/2009, -0/+5And after bombing Cambodia to dust and giving the perfect opportunity for the Khmer Rouge to seize power. There presence in South-East Asia actually helped the spread of communism more than it hindered it.
  • kolop1, on 07/06/2009, -3/+8What the hell is going on with death recently?

    Death happened everyday to thousands of people. Just because you don't hear about most of them does not mean there is a sudden change on how people are dying.
  • Sucka27, on 07/06/2009, -0/+5This still stands as the most interesting movie I have ever watched.
  • BionicPimp, on 07/06/2009, -0/+5I wish you weren't being dugg down, but it's unfortunate. This is digg, after all. I get the sense that you actually haven't seen Fog of War, because if you did, then you would know that "Emphathize with your enemy" doesn't mean what you think it means.

    McNamara was specifically talking about Vietnam, in that before the war even had begun (are the vietcong even enemies with us yet?) The American Leaders had not put themselves in the shoes of the Vietnamese. America had this concept that Vietnam would join comunist china. ie. the domino theory, but if the US leaders at that time had taken a moment to understand the needs and desires of Vietnam, they would have seen that there was no way in hell that Vietnam would ever join communist China. In fact they would have probably fought to the last man woman and child against the chinese. They had already been fighting the Chinese for thousands of years.

    So the wording is a little clumsy, but if we had "Empathized" with Vietnam, we would have never had to fight the entire vietnam war.
  • Falldog, on 07/06/2009, -0/+5Heart attacks and complications from old age aren't considered natural anymore?
  • Pauli92, on 07/06/2009, -4/+9McNamara had no choice, Lyndon Johnson was calling the shots!
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