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144 Comments
- pintomp3, on 10/12/2007, -12/+65all muslims are your enemy? that's over a billion people.
- timeblind, on 10/12/2007, -23/+75technically speaking they aren't fascists. technically speaking, George Bush and the US is strongly fascistic: Corporate Fascism.
- mapkinase, on 10/12/2007, -21/+58Because I am Muslim and I am not the enemy of you. Surely, I disagree with you, surely, I detest that you drink, smoke and fornicate, but my hate is against your sins, actions, not against you as a human being.
The action of you I hate the most is that you are supporting the government who thinks it has a right to impose American model of government and American way of life to other countries.
Got that? - danep, on 10/12/2007, -2/+38I'm sure most members of the Klu Klux Klan consider themselves solidly Christian. But we don't refer to the Klan as a Christian, or even a Fundamentalist Christian organization, even if they would- we call it what it is, a racist terrorizing cult. To do otherwise would be an insult to the other 2 billion Christians on this planet. Calling these terrorists "Muslims" is no different.
- timeblind, on 10/12/2007, -20/+52actually both Iran and the US are pretty fascistic:
1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism 2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights 3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause 4. Supremacy of the Military 5. Rampant Sexism 6. Controlled Mass Media 7. Obsession with National Security 8. Religion and Government are Intertwined 9. Corporate Power is Protected 10. Labor Power is Suppressed 11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts 12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment 13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption 14. Fraudulent Elections
but al Qaeda doesn't have a state, so they can't be fascists :)
in related news, I heard Bush attempt to describe the attitudes in the Muslim world as a "quagmire". Nice try buddy, but that word has already been taken. - The_Wallbanger, on 10/12/2007, -8/+27The problem with the term "Islamic-Fascism" is that the two words are not entirely independent of each other. By nature, Islam practices a higher degree of control than we are accustomed to in the States. For example, there is no consumption of alcohol and women must remain covered. Also per the Islamic teachings, the government control and the religious control of Muslim nations are highly indistinguishable. This isn't necessarily a bad thing in an of itself, but it could match some criteria for "fascism" to us in the West. One must be cautious when waging war with "Islamic-Fascism" because that terminology doesn't distinguish between their society as a whole, and the terrorist activities we are attempting to defend against.
- Pyronite, on 10/12/2007, -3/+20More character?
I wouldn't want Mahmoud Ahmadinejad saying that he was at war with "Jewish fascists." I don't want to hear bin Laden saying that he is interested in destroying "Christian infidels." And I don't want to hear Bush saying that he is at war with "Islamic fascism."
Regardless of the way you might personally take the phrases, they mean a lot more than they perhaps intend to (in Bush's case, at least). Why not do away with wording that is doing nothing but hurting your cause and change it into something (hopefully) productive? I don't think "oh, Mahmoud is only talking about the FASCIST Jews," just like many Muslims don't think "oh, Bush is only talking about the FASCIST Muslims."
Besides, it's not "calling them what they are" anyways. There are a lot of abhorent things that terrorists are, but "fascist" doesn't fit with the definition:
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=fascism&x=0&y=0 - Popdmb, on 10/12/2007, -2/+18Nice to see he finally dropped a nonsensical, nonexistant faux political term from his vocabulary. Baby steps I guess...
- ScornForSega, on 10/12/2007, -18/+33The Muslims might be highly theocratic, but hardly fascists.
Maybe the GOP bought dictionaries? - Tebixan, on 10/12/2007, -1/+15@bgoodnight
Did you read any of the comments to your post before once again proclaiming the evil of islam?
KKK = Christian Fascists
Al-Queda = Islamic Fascists
When someone is referring to the evils of the KKK, should they just lump all christians in with the group? Believe it or not, America is not 100% christian; should the American muslims be lumped in with these people who want to destroy us? - s14sh3r, on 10/12/2007, -12/+26@ mapkinase
Even though we may disagree on certain issues, I agree with the fact that the US pushes itself on every other country. The US blames things on fanaticism, but isn't pushing your agendas and ideals on people who don't want it in itself fanatical? - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -9/+22fas‧cism /ˈfæʃɪzəm/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[fash-iz-uhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. (sometimes initial capital letter) a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.
Based on the definition of fascism, putting it together with Islam was ridiculous.
However, let's take a look at that definition and compare it to the current state of America. Damn, smells like home to me. - spyrochaete, on 10/12/2007, -1/+13Funniest thing of all:
Bush is pro nationalism, pro military, pro wiretapping, pro religion, anti liberalism, anti freedom, and he calls someone else a fascist. - tont0r, on 10/12/2007, -1/+12I feel peopl are getting confused between a 'muslim' and an 'muslim extremist'. The media does a very poor job on distinguishing between the two. I for one am not muslim, but I have many muslim friends. They definitely do not go running in the streets screaming 'death to america' and burn the american flag. Believe it or not, they are the as you or I. Just because you dont believe the same things you do doesnt make them bad people.
They certainly are not our 'enemy'. And in America, we also have our 'extremists'. One nice example is that wacko who goes from funeral to funeral of soldiers and screams (with his fun crowd of followers) that they deserved to die because they support *****.
I am definitely not saying that the extremists arent a problem and that we need to pamper them because it might hurt their feelings, but to say 'muslims are our enemy' its a bit extreme. - s14sh3r, on 10/12/2007, -3/+14LastVisibleDog
"How do you deal with passages like this:
Qur'an 4:89 They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them"
Yeah, because everyone knows that Christianity and Judaism are religions of peace:
Numbers 31:16-18 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
16Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.
17Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
18But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
See? What a nice peaceful bunch! :) - sparks2, on 10/12/2007, -2/+13@LastVisibleDog:
It's really interesting you chose to quote that verse, did you try to read what comes right after it?
First, note how the verse doesn't have say who "they" are, and to save space and time just go and read surrah 4 as a whole and you'll probably figure it out, what's more important though is what comes right after in 4:98 (that is the sentence after your quote ends):
4:90
Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If God was please, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: therefore they withdraw from you but do not fight you, and (isntead) send you (guarantees) of peace, then God has opened no way for you (to war against them)
Obviously the "they" referred to here could not be peaceful people leaving you alone... - monkeywizard, on 10/12/2007, -2/+12Funny thing it doesn't even make sense.
Funnier thing is most people don't know what facist even means.
Funniest thing is how our government works - since most people are stupid, naturally it was inevitable that our leaders would become just as stupid.
Ahhh.. Democracy is such a double-edged sword. - sparks2, on 10/12/2007, -7/+17@bgoodnight:
How can a billion people be so barbaric?
They're not.
How can you be so ignorant?
Heck if I know...
@LastVisibleDog
"Why do Muslims hate so much?"
Huh? I hate it when my dog craps on my front lawn... does that necessarly mean my religion teaches me to hate (no matter what religion i believe in... just pointing out your utter stupidity) - sonicspike, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10Who smells an election? :D
- scottc, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10@leehodge
"It amazes me that left wing extremists will support terrorists that are killing Americans because they think it is a good way to "get" Bush.
Think for once. Stop parroting"
Sounds like someone needs to take his own advice. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+12Still trolling away I see. Does it make you feel like a man?
- moke, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9You honestly think he will be able to keep up not saying it. Guy does not even know what is he saying 75% of time.
- Popdmb, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10To continue your point, most people tend to write off people that call other people "fascists." (which doesn't do much for America's waning credibility when the PRESIDENT is using the word)
It's become so cliched and half the people using it don't know what it means. It has become so overused that it's on par with idiot or dummy.
"omg you're a fascist."
shut the ***** up. - spyrochaete, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8Give an example. I don't see it.
- mistarojaz, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8lastvisibledog
his point was that him hating a dog crapping on his lawn has nothing to do with his religous beliefs.
so the fact that you did not get his point kind of validates what he was saying, namely calling you stupid - inkgrok, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7@ Popdmb
Click on the "previous" link and you'll see the quote. Looks like they bookmarked the end of the column. - loudribs, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8You don't have to be 'pro-muslim' to disagree with the ramblings of an idiot president and do you really think that every muslim out there is out to get you? If you do, it must be a bleak and frightening world you live in...To be honest, I don't agree with any form of organised religion, but what I do agree with is that sweeping statements and wars based on ill-concealed lies are a great way to make the world a more dangerous place. So keep up the good work you guys....keep scaring yourself *****, puckering up and trading in your civil liberties...otherwise the muslims will get you. Pur-lease.
- thepeacemaker, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7After invading two Muslim countries and destroying another (Lebanon) by proxy (express shipping cluster bombs), killing many time more innocent people in "collateral damage" than all the terrorists victims in the US combined, destroying their infrastructure through arial bombing, and religious leaders and media having a childish fetish for heaping insults on their religion, linking the name of their religion with a WWII ideology is simply adding insult to injury. Just call the terrorists "terrorists" and leave it at that.
- imsoclever, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Fascism is a political ideology based on nationalism. Islam isn't a nation, it's a religion. The term makes no sense. People need to stop throwing around the word Fascism as a generic negative.
It is different than Authoritarianism, which is a form of government, although it does incorporate some of its ideas.
While we're at it, a Muslim is some one of the Islamic faith. An Arab is some one who speaks Arabic. A Middle Easterner is a person who comes from that region of the world. Terms like Iraqi, Iranian etc. denote which nation a person is a citizen of.
These terms are not synonyms for each other, stop using them as such. - Lanser84, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7@danep
The difference is today's terrorism is motivated by a few interpretations of Islam. Not all Muslims are dangerous, just as not all Christians are dangerous. However, we rightly regard the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, the destruction of art work and the closing of secular institutions in the ancient world as all motivated by (certain interpretations of) Christianity. Even if not all interpretations of Christianity today (notably those highly influenced by englightenment secular culture) endorse those attrocities, "Christianity" is still very involved in them.
The same is true, in spades, of today's most dangerous terrorists in relation to Islam. Salafis and totalitarian Islamists both draw their inspiration from Islam. Salafists explictly advocate rejecting all non-muslim influence on Islam itself and advocate a return to Sharia law instead of Western political institutions; their goal is to return to the Islam of the 10th century. Islamists envision a renewed Mid-East Caliphate, a modern-day Muslim theocrcacy.
(A few interpretations of) Islam are very much involved with the phenomenon of terrorism today. "Islam" should be part of the name. "Islamic Fascism" isn't the best because it only names, at best, half the movement (the Islamist side, not the Salafi side), and even that half is as influenced by Marxism as by Fascism. The more truly "fascist" part was Saddam's Baath party and Pan-Arab movement, which has been marginalized as a major movement for years. Today it is Islam, not Arabism, that is the driving force behind terrorism. - cybermort, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5the decider has decided!!!....
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8I think you're a troll and a ***** idiot, but that has nothing to do with hate. I have never once said I hated you, or any other neocon douchebag on here. I have pretty close to zero respect for you as a human being, but I certainly don't hate you. Hate is a predominantely republican value.
- withears, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6On Sept. 11, 2001, America was attacked by an organization led by Osama Bin Laden.
We know this to be fact.
Yet 5 years later, Osama Bin Laden has yet to be brought to justice.
And somehow we get diverted from the task of bringing those who we KNOW did harm to us to justice because this administration is busy trying to spin up it's followers through the use of inane (and inaccurate) terms such as "Isamo-fascists." And THEN it's news that they're not going to be using that term anymore?
We have TRULY taken our eyes off the ball. Osama Bin Laden is laughing at us. - spyrochaete, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5From Wikipedia:
"Fascism is a radical political ideology that combines elements of corporatism, authoritarianism, nationalism, militarism, anti-anarchism, anti-communism and anti-liberalism."
I never mentioned anything about Republicans or Democrats, even though those terms can be weighed on the same scale vs. fascism. It just so happens that fascism and conservatism are both on the right-hand side of that scale so they will obviously overlap to some degree.
By anti-liberalism I mean Bush is against the liberty and freedom and privacy of Americans. He is enforcing an RFID-enabled national identification card. He condones wiretapping of ordinary citizens suspected of whatever he deems anti-American. He is anti-liberalism in the true sense of the word in that he favours nationalism over individual rights (e.g., "if you've done nothing wrong you have nothing to hide"). He dehumanizes the enemy, promotes subjectivity, and fans the fires of ignorance and war by referring to his enemies as fascists.
I don't think for a second that America unanimously approves of his methods. He has lowest acceptance rate of any president in the history of the republic. If anything, the self-substantiated electoral system is to blame for allowing such a person to remain in power for so long. (surely people would find someone more acceptable to vote for if they had the opportunity)
I am calling Bush a hypocrite for calling another group fascist because he acts like one himself. America is not a fascist state but its leader is imposing fascist ideals on Americans and the entire world. - spyrochaete, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4@ZeroG52
My grandmother, who escaped Poland in 1939 and lived in a hole for 2 years before coming to Canada, is the person who influenced my opinion on this matter. It is wrong to invoke ignorance and hatred by placing stereotypical labels on a group of people. My grandfather would slap me if he saw me disrespecting the individual rights of people I don't even know. You win a war by learning who your enemy is, not by telling him who he is.
So, to address your comment, precisely which war is America winning right now? America's enemies are laughing at them. Not only did 3000 people die in 9/11, but even more American soldiers have died in invasions. That's a 2 for the price of 1 deal for Osama, handed to him on a silver platter by Bush wearing a french maid outfit. Congratulations on your win.
p.s., I'm sorry to speak so harshly. Rereading my own comment makes me sad. I hope people of all religions can learn to accept their differences sooner than later. - imsoclever, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Actually, I'm pretty sure the majority of Veterans are overwhelmingly anti-war. How about this, when you fight in a war, you can come back and tell me how great it is.
- loudribs, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5I think the biggest give away with the use of the term is that Bush and co really don't know what they are up against and are clutching at semantic straws. It's same deal as Afganistan where anyone with a gun and an axe to grind are labeled as 'Tailban'. This is patently not the case as the anti-coallition forces are a very loose collection of drugs barons, tribal groups, warlords and anyone else with a beef. I have a feeling that this is the same case with 'al-qaeda' and 'islamic fascists'. I know Bush likes to keep things simple, but labelling the enemy with easily digestable sound bites for domestic consumption just goes to show how little he really knows and will only cause offense to those who could be potential allies.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -4/+8Hate to break it to you, but it's still you.
- Popdmb, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5@ ingrok
Thanks a lot. Found it. - Lanser84, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3@ Muddle
I modded you down (twice now) because, ironically, your post was a Muddle. I had a hard time understanding what you were even talking about. Are you condeming the West for reading Nietzsche and (allegedly) being OK with analy raping boys? I don't understand at all what you are saying about drinking alcohol except "those distilled from grain or grape products." No idea what you are trying to imply from the travel channel thing. I do think I made out that: you don't like that we are rich and allegedly "partied" over the war, which you see the West as responsible for. ---see, very confusing, please clarify.
To earn my +mods you have to make an argument that is well-reasoned and I think is basically correct. - s14sh3r, on 10/12/2007, -6/+9The republicans in power have screwed up this country. I've been a voting republican for over 20 years. My first vote was cast for President Reagan. I even voted for Dubya.
No more. I guess I should thank Dubya for opening my eyes to what the party is all about.
*Note to republicans....Die in a fire :) - TheSak, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5Hopefully we can actually get the Republicans on board with fighting terror rather than voting down the bills that would actually enable the security recommendations of the 9/11 Commission so that they can pay for the occupation of Iraq. Look it up if you don't believe me.
It's time for a reality check, neo-cons. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5ahh..Finally Digg has been taken back from the conservative republicans. I mean just a few days ago the majority of digg items were all pro-War, pro-segregation. Good to see we're back to sanity!
@danep
>I'm sure most members of the Klu Klux Klan consider themselves solidly Christian. But >we don't refer to the Klan as a Christian, or even a Fundamentalist Christian
Exactly. If it's a Christian group that does some sort of attack in the name of Jesus or God or w/e, we just call them terrorists (actually generally they just call them attackers).
The word terrorist or even facist has a long history, and it's a history that predates all this post-9/11 crap. - ricosalomar, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3"I'll take our system over any in the entire world."
Dude, 1952 called, they want their slogan back. - spyrochaete, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I'm not American and I'm not particularly interested in politics so I admit my understanding of the situation is incomplete. We Canadians often hear the worst about our southern bretheren and that's just about all I've had on which to base my opinion of America and its leaders.
What really stands out for Canadians are the little differences between our countries. I agree with you to an extent that fascism can't be tied entirely to the political spectrum, but coming from a further-left country myself I am perhaps more sensitive to the Bush-era suppressive policies like secret residential wiretapping and the sudden requirement to identify yourself to travel nationally by air. The very name of the Patriot Act, for me, is the summation of why Bush is dangerously nationalist if not fascist. You either accept it unquestioned or you are anti-American.
So I take your arguments to heart and I dugg you for rationally and calmly arguing this point with me, but I'm not yet convinced. I agree that everyday life has to change in a country whose civilians have so recently been terrorized. However, I feel that the way Bush handled the situation challenges what I understood to be American ideals. America has been in wars before but they never changed the country's mission statement until Bush arrived. Maybe my very definition of fascism is out of wack, but I see Bush as someone who is trying to bend the ideals of America to his will despite what his people want. - mikesherov, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3what digg were you watching?
- spyrochaete, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I don't think the issue is that the term is "played out" so much as it is harmful to turn diplomatic relations into a namecalling fight. If Bush was smart he would acknowledge the humanity and individuality of Islam, and at least learn that there is more than one branch of the religion. Using umbrella terms only fuels the fire.
- Jaymoon, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Those silly neo-cons and their buzzwords to label people...
Oh wait... - ISAACHKIP, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I thought the "enemy" was al Qaida & any other extremist group who'd do harm to us and/or our friends. (Whom ever they might be? Do we have any left?) Implying that all Muslims are fascists & therefore our enemy is like claiming that all Christians are white supremacists because all white supremacist groups are Christian... (Aren't they?)
- spyrochaete, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4I thought the way you did not long ago. About Americans and Muslims. Then I stopped myself. I was being a Nazi. I wrote this to make it up to myself. http://demodulated.blogspot.com/2006/06/fighting-fire-with-marshmallows.html
I recommend you read about the ideals of Islam and the foundation on which it stands. True Islam is about being kind and understanding even to the people who treat you poorly. The people who kill in the name of Islam are doing a great injustice to their heritage and are not acting the way the prophet Muhammed would. WWJD? WWMD? -
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