What is Digg?89 Comments
- petebert, on 07/13/2008, -1/+37Americas poor are fat, have you been to a walmart? its expensive to eat healthy but I can buy a hungryman dinner for $1
- ileftfark, on 07/12/2008, -20/+46This guy is from the old school, when you didn't have to worry about offending some interest group or another when you represented your opinions. On the other hand, he is a bit crude and probably not a great choice as a member of your campaign team. His "greatest hits" are as follows:
- “Until we are on a pay-as-you-go budget, until we have stopped inflation, I do not intend to support any public works project in the United States.” — Gramm, 10/9/75
I don't see how this is a terrible statement. What's the alternative- pumping money into broken and leaky programs? He was calling for reform and responsible spending. Unequivocally rejecting all public works problems probably wouldn't work, but advocating responsibility in times of inflation only makes sense.
- “Minimum wage laws tend to cut the bottom rung off the economic ladder. The plain truth is there should be no minimum wage law in this great land of free enterprise.” — Gramm, 5/17/89
Minimum wage has been and will be a debate in this country forever. How high or low should it be? Should it exist at all? There are plenty of valid criticisms of arbitrarily forcing businesses to pay their employees a certain amount. Since money is a finite resource, small businesses in particular are hurt by this, and can cause them to operate with fewer employees with less benefits, and charge higher prices. This directly adversely affects the lower class which the law was designed to aid. Milton Friedman has been a staunch supporter of having no minimum wage for years. Either way, it is still subject to debate, and some will be for it, and some will be against it. I don't see how this is even news.
“We’re the only nation in the world where all our poor people are fat.” — Gramm, 9/6/81
This is a pretty hard statement to defend (or at least play Devil's Advocate), but there is a grain of truth. Our lowest class of people are statistically more likely to be overweight, due to poor diet, availability of low-cost, high-fat food products, and lack of education. Obviously, this is not ideal. But comparatively studied versus the poor of a Burkina Faso, and you see that even our lowest class can still feed themselves, and take advantage of education and job placement programs. While his statement was a bit arrogant (to say the least), it isn't entirely untrue.
I hate this ***** when a politician says something unfavorable, and all of a sudden, it turns into a ***** witch hunt, whipping out statements from over 30 years ago. Why are we only outraged now? I don't particularly like the guy, but articles like this serve no real purpose in terms of education - they summarize the career of a politician in three quotes, and is the leftist equivalent to a Fox News who tries to characters a fist pound as a "terrorist jab". Free yourself from shill media that serves only to create controversy for their own financial benefit. - thirdcoastborn, on 07/13/2008, -0/+18As long as healthy food is expensive the poor will be overweight.
- burjzyntski, on 07/13/2008, -0/+11well...McDonalds is cheap :-/
- paidhima, on 07/13/2008, -3/+12To your first point, I don't think it's all that off the wall to hold the opinion that reform and responsible spending is vital. The problem is that it's not what he said. What he said was that he would not support any public works project at all until that dream became a reality. The sad fact is that bureaucracy essentially makes that idea impossible. What he said was equivalent to throwing the baby out with the bathwater, and it would not only hurt the people on the receiving end of those projects, but the people that would stand to gain from the projects themselves - jobs, government contracts, etc.
Secondly, I believe the minimum wage is absolutely essential right now. It would be great if we could move away from that need, but there's no way it'll happen. You would see continual rounds of layoffs by companies looking to get rid of their minimum wage staff to make room for cheaper people, particularly in service industries like retail sales. Food service employees, particularly your customer-facing waiters and busboy-type jobs would be hit hard as well: "Slow night for tips? Too bad." Some would say, tough ***** - if you don't like it, go find another job. Unfortunately, someone has to do the job.
The last point is just asinine, and there's really no way to defend it. It's a perfect example of someone confusing correlation and causation. The point could be made that, yes, poor people tend to have a poor diet because the food they can afford is not particularly healthy. When you're struggling to feed your children, you feed them whatever you can afford. Fortunately, there is help for the lowest classes - those generally referred to as "the working poor." The US has managed, thanks in large part to volunteer and charitable organizations with the help of a number of corporations, to raise the standard of living for our poorest citizens through public food and nutritional programs (including school lunch programs).
I agree with most of your ending sentiment, though. The outrage has gotten to a point where it's not even constructive. I don't want to be outraged, but I do want to be informed. I can tell you why there's outrage now, as opposed to before: Gramm is now a player. He's an adviser to a candidate who stands a very solid chance of being the next president. It's the same reason Wright was brought into the picture, though I would say Gramm's views on the economy are a fair bit more relevant than Wright's diatribes on race and equality. Did Wright make me see Obama differently? Nope. Wright is a bit of a kook, and has taken his views to an extreme that makes him essentially irrelevant. Does Gramm make me see McCain differently? No. It won't make the difference in my vote. But considering McCain's somewhat weak grasp of the economy, I don't really like the idea that Gramm could be part of McCain's policy. - tonyteetime, on 07/13/2008, -2/+10Gramm does whine a lot .
- gobbleplex, on 07/13/2008, -1/+9It's a little strange though on that first point to say that Gramm is advocating sound fiscal policy. When he says he doesn't want public works programs until there is a 'pay as you go' system in place for the government what he neglects to tell you is that he doesn't even want a 'pay as you go' system. It's disingenuous to frame his comments as a desire to make Public Works viable.
- ZenMojo, on 07/13/2008, -0/+4...Minimum wage is 13k a year....
...Average income is 46k a year...
22k is poor, but doable. And it's quite interesting to see Tyrghast get dugg down for being poor. Diggers are seriously out of touch, aren't they? - PhilLesh69, on 07/13/2008, -0/+4And they'll both shorten your life dramatically.
Seems like everyone I know that eats that ***** is on dialysis, or uses a glucose meter, or has a half dozen pills they need to take each day.
It also seems like all the older people I know eat fruits and vegetables, chicken, beef and fish, and do not fill themselves up with junk food.
In fact, all the people I know above the age of 80 have a very traditional diet: a meat, a starch and a vegetable for dinner, eggs for breakfast, even with bacon or sausage, a basic lunch of ham or roast beef, maybe tuna fish or chicken salad, and some alcohol at the end of the day, in moderation.
They don't care about "fat" or "sodium", they eat a reasonable amount of healthy, whole, foods. My Aunt's friend is 94 year's old, and still drives and can play 9 holes of golf once a week.
I know idiots who are 46 and are about to have a leg amputated, and they just can't understand when I tell them to stop eating at McDonald's, or drinking 5 cokes a day, or having that fourth donut of the day.
I try to tell them that I'll have a donut, every once in a while, and maybe every few weeks I might drink a coke, they just can't understand that.
I try to tell them that a cigarette every few weeks won't kill you, but a pack a day will.
They still don't get it. - doctechnical, on 07/13/2008, -0/+4@ZenMojo:
Using carrots is a really silly idea, because the human digestive system can't break down cellulose you're going to get dick-all calories from a carrot. This is also the reason cows eat grass and humans don't. You want best bang-for-the-buck results for your food? Rice and beans.
You might want to look at this article which shows how to live 30 days on thirty bucks worth of food:
http://ricebeansmixedgreens.wordpress.com/2008/05/ ... - ZenMojo, on 07/13/2008, -1/+4...Read my post above. Bad food = cheap. Good food = expensive.
- PhilLesh69, on 07/13/2008, -0/+3ZenMojo,
You're being intellectually dishonest.
Why don't you include whole chickens, or even chicken breasts (sometimes even skinless) in your equations?
You can buy boneless, skinless chicken breast for $1.79 a pound when it is on sale, and you can always buy a whole chicken for about $5.99 a chicken.
Plus, you forgot to include the health care costs of people who eat at McDonald's.
I haven't been to a doctor in 10 years, and only then it was because of lower back pain that was treated by doing exercises.
Nobody is trying to "find a way through the system" unless by that you mean trying to get out of the revolving door of poor diet and poor health, which obviously serves a few groups that profit from this mess. You don't work for a medical researcher, processed food producer or pharmaceutical company, do you? - doctechnical, on 07/13/2008, -0/+3If you're trying to raise 7 children alone on something like 22k then your primary problem isn't income, it's a lack of common sense.
Slow down on popping out the crotchfruit until you can get your economic ***** together. - ZenMojo, on 07/13/2008, -1/+4...
No.
Calorie for calorie, eating healthier is several times more expensive than eating ***** food.
Let's look at a carrot. About 72 grams for a large carrot. There are 453.592 grams in a pound (let's round it to 450 grams). A pound of carrots at Albertson's costs .59 cents.
There are 6.25 carrots in a pound at a cost of .59 cents.
The recommended daily allowance of a grown man is 2500 calories. At 30 calories each, it takes about 80 carrots to fill this. 80 carrots costs $7.56.
So for a grown man to consume a recommended daily allowance of calories in nothing but fresh, healthy carrots costs $7.56.
Replace this with cheeseburgers.
300 calories for a McDonald's cheeseburger. .89 cents each. The cost of eating your daily allowance in cheeseburgers is $7.12 cents.
So if you eat no meat and nothing but fresh vegetables, like raw carrots, you can survive on a cost of $7.56 dollars a day. OR, you can save .44 cents a day and eat 8 cheeseburgers.
It's pretty well-founded that eating poorly is cheaper than eating healthy. No matter how many articles we get on digg throwing the numbers up for everybody to see, someone thinks they've found a way through the system (without ever using real numbers, of course). If you're a mother in a poor family, your options are either "vegetarian" or "fast food." - miramardesign, on 07/13/2008, -0/+3I agree w/ the poor/fat comment and even Chris Rock said so. Now the reason is politicians giving farm subsidies to fattening foods while ignoring nutrition to give pork to their home states. Watch the documentary "King Corn" to see more.
- gobbleplex, on 07/13/2008, -1/+4Most western countries can boast that nowadays. Increasingly, China can boast it too.
But do you honestly think that 70% of your population being unhealthy is something to boast about? - UrinalPooper, on 07/13/2008, -1/+4Actually, I'm kind of proud of the fact that our poor are fat. What other country can boast that? Healthy living costs more money than the over-caloric mass-marketed foods sold in bulk at walmart.
- inactive, on 07/13/2008, -2/+5you demonstrate zero critical thinking skills and supply nil arguments or reasoning for your standpoint. This is the mark of an idiot.
- PhilLesh69, on 07/13/2008, -2/+4What's funny is that healthy food isn't really expensive.
You must just avoid the produce aisle and go straight for the frozen food section.
Most of the crap in the frozen food section is unhealthy, and costs a lot, on a per calorie basis.
How much does a bunch of grapes cost? Cheaper than a bag of chips or a box of oreos. How much does fruit punch cost? About as much as orange juice.
I can buy fresh produce and a bottle of salad dressing for the same price as a bag of chips and some hostess cupcakes. I can snack on that, and feel just as satisfied as if I had chowed down on all sorts of processed foods. Yet, I don't have to buy a blood glucose meter, or take plavix and other heart disease pills. - amoirae, on 07/13/2008, -2/+4You're stupid. Ha ha.
- thegbe, on 07/13/2008, -0/+2Healthy whole foods (fresh, not frozen) not only cost the same or less on a per calorie basis than "junk" food...but they are loaded with complex carbs and fiber as opposed to enriched simple sugar. This means the same amount of calories fills you up more, and keeps you full for longer. Think of trying to fuel a camp fire with a duralog instead of lighter fluid.
- inactive, on 07/13/2008, -0/+2If Phil Gramm is in charge of "econ" in the US its going to be pretty difficult to stay here if I have the ability and job skills to leave.
Right now were kind of teetering on 2nd world (a la Russia) status and could get there in a couple years if our physical infrastructure and jobs keep drying up. If McCain gets elected and puts this clown in power, however, I'm convinced we'll be looking more like Mexico after they are done with what they want to do. ...Or maybe that's the point? - BigMacMcChicken, on 07/13/2008, -0/+2dude, I think you're a little out of touch. There are plenty of fat people in this country who'd LOVE to make 22k.
Now if you have 7 children and no husband, then it becomes problematic. - ileftfark, on 07/13/2008, -0/+2Good on you, bro. You are obviously thinking for yourself, which unfortunately is pretty rare anymore. I was simply playing Devil's Advocate to show Gramm's comments weren't as ridiculous as certain media outlets would have you believe. I'm not a huge fan of either candidate, but I can tell you that I'm sick of sensationalizing everything a politician does. See ***** for what it is, and make decisions accordingly. The far right has been notorious for these practices, and now the left is doing the same thing. Stop the games, look at the issues, and make your choice. I remember when I used to live in America, and I think you do as well. I don't need the news or blogs to tell me how to feel. You have been dugg.
- TheMahdi, on 07/13/2008, -1/+3I wouldn't have buried this page if not for the title. The fact that most poor people in this country are overweight is not an outrageous statement. It's an unfortunate fact.
- inactive, on 07/12/2008, -14/+16So this is the guy who is going to direct America's economic policy? That would be another huge step backwards for all Americans except the top 1% once again. The fat cats get fatter.
- radarplane, on 07/13/2008, -0/+2I'm right there with you. I don't see how those three statements are "terrible". But reading the comments you see people don't even take time to consider the arguments. Weird.
- Scheissen, on 07/13/2008, -6/+8This is a stretch even for a smear blog like ThinkProgress. oh wait
- UrinalPooper, on 07/13/2008, -2/+4You... you are actually saying that you would rather people starve than be "unhealthy"...
And you're getting dugg for such myopic stupidity. No wonder I wish to piss upon mankind from a great height. - rz8472, on 07/13/2008, -0/+2Actually I think Hungry-Man costs more than that; those generic Swanson's meals cost $1 each.
- principle, on 07/13/2008, -0/+2All social programs combined do not account for one percent of the budget. For example, every year the Defense Department cannot account for more money (possibly misappropriated) then the entire social programs’ budget. Nevertheless, the cost of the social programs is used by the rightwing us the bases of their cause. What is more amazing is that they manage to sell this uncharitable idea to predominantly Christian supporters.
- emjaymj, on 07/13/2008, -0/+2We are mostly in agreement here except the degree to which different forms of energy contribute to fat. It doesn't take a terribly high amount of energy for fructose to be stored as fat, for instance. Your absolutely right that refined sugar is worse though, but people really shouldn't really be drinking more than a small glass of orange juice a day. Of course, life wouldn't be half as fun without it's vices, for you it seems to be cigarettes (and I'm sure other things as well).
However, we're all different and few things are guaranteed to cause us great harm in the long run. Sodium is probably the best example of this, as the biggest problem most people will have from a high-sodium diet is high water retention. Blood pressure is actually only sensitive to sodium in a minority of people. - emjaymj, on 07/13/2008, -1/+3Where the hell do you live, Florida? Orange juices prices are getting more ridiculous than gasoline here, $4 for less than 2 liters. You can get a 2L bottle of brand name soda or the sugar water they call fruit punch for about 80 cents. I drink mostly water and unsweetened tea these days anyways but orange juice is nowhere close to being a cheap alternative.
Of course, even 100% natural orange juice is loaded with sugar and has even more calories than Coca-Cola, so while it's more nutritious than soda, drinking that isn't going to help people keep off the weight.
In fact, your entire post just screams pretentiousness but it's obvious you have no idea what you're talking about or you live in Bizarro-world. Those bottled salad dressings you mentioned are often more fattening than a cheeseburger. If people are trying to spend less and be healthy, whatever happened to a homemade oil and vinegar salad dressing?
And fruits are high in sugar and vegetables are much more important. Staples like potatoes and corn remain cheap but potatoes are nutritionless balls of starch and corn might be slightly healthier, but not by much, and it's probably the one plant source most Americans need far LESS of in their diet.
When you talk about being able to buy chicken for 99 cents a pound, that's on sale, and can't be relied on to feed your family week after week, especially if you're too poor to stock up. Plus, dark meat has more calories and twice the fat of white meat. Buying healthy meats like fresh chicken or fish is generally much more expensive than beef or pork, and buying produce gets ridiculously expensive.
I'd also love to see the anorexic family that eats a 2.6oz hamburger and an ear of corn each. Even if YOUR family likes being underfed, sure it might be low-calorie but that is by NO MEANS nutritious.
Geez there are so many misleading and just outright WRONG things in your posts but mine has already grown way too long. - pagno, on 07/13/2008, -1/+3You had me up until "bleu cheese".
- ZenMojo, on 07/13/2008, -6/+8Phil Gramm's an idiot and a thief. His wife Wendy was head of the ETC and was bought by Enron to push the loophole in resource trading. As soon as she got it passed she quit and joined the board on, you guessed it, Enron.
Phil Gramm embodies the inherent corruption of certain wealthy figures and their ability to weasel their way through the shadows of our greed and ignorance. A perfect match for McCain.
- “Until we are on a pay-as-you-go budget, until we have stopped inflation, I do not intend to support any public works project in the United States.” — Gramm, 10/9/75
He never supported pay-go, so he's full of *****.
“Minimum wage laws tend to cut the bottom rung off the economic ladder. The plain truth is there should be no minimum wage law in this great land of free enterprise.” — Gramm, 5/17/89
Minimum wage laws prevent the suppression of income in disparate economies due to the pressures of globalization. For all of their fearmongering, Republicans know that minimum wage has NEVER been documented to contribute to a shift in hiring practices, and it has only affected the bottom line of large international corporate business with diversified employee bases.
Small business owners are forced to hire at home, but with a failure rate of over 75% in their first year small businesses are notoriously unreliable ventures in the first place. This leaves plenty of room for growth in the few profitable businesses, hence why minimum wage earners feel no economic pressure themselves.
So, on that matter, there are two restricted economic actors: small businesses and trade and minimum wage workers. Minimum wage in practice, regardless of your own personal theory, provides artificial buoyancy in closed economies where employees do not have the freedom of movement. Furthermore, after layoffs, combined with various forms of unemployment insurance, it allows liquidity in the work force as there are a wide variety of jobs that keep employees paid within their means for untrained labor.
Finally, capital gains rewards risk, not work. Minimum wage rewards work, not risk. Gramm's favoritism toward one in addition to his hatred of the other is quite reflective of a "certain mindset" in the top 10% where they consider their "intellectual endeavor" and good fortune (i.e., luck) worth more than another man's sweat and drudgery.
P.S. - the flat tax is full of *****. It would require a massive increase in bureaucracy to prosecute collection, especially on customs imports, as the wealthy would buy overseas in bulk (i.e., on trips to Canada) to evade paying taxes at home, particularly the increase in sales tax to cover the difference. - PhilLesh69, on 07/13/2008, -0/+2pagno, should I have mispelled it blue?
I'm sorry, I won't ever order "french fries" again, I'll always call them freedom fries!
Do you love me again, now? - Tyrghast, on 07/13/2008, -6/+8Someone who says all our poor people are fat hasn't been poor for a long time... Try living on my measly 22k before taxes and see how fat you get.
- inactive, on 07/13/2008, -0/+2Rice and beans are expensive? Separate or together its what a lot of the world lives on.
Collard Greens? A chicken breast twice a week? - ileftfark, on 07/13/2008, -0/+2I see you are not a "Dollar Menuaire"...
- PhilLesh69, on 07/13/2008, -0/+2Thank you, emjyamj!
Yes, organge juice is still sugar, even if it is a higher order sugar.
I love that you mention "sodium", because it turns out that it isn't sodium chloride that is bad for you, and it in fact is necessary for proper heart function, in conjunction with Potassium and Magnesium.
The "sodium" we were told to avoid wasn't NaCl, but was actually sodium pentothate, sodium dichlorate, sodium benzoate, sodium whatever, all the unnatural sodiums that do not help regulate heart rythm. - doctechnical, on 07/13/2008, -1/+2@apothekari: At this point I'll point out it's those fat cats (the 1% top income earners) who will be bailing these folks out.
Transferring wealth at gunpoint from people who make good economic decisions to those who make poor ones might "feel" good, but it scores a zero on the logic meter. The unintended consequnces of this forced charity are
1) The "fat cats" will find more and more efficient ways of hiding their wealth and
2) You're subsidizing dumb. - cyberprunes, on 07/13/2008, -1/+2Ah the sweet condescension of an old pasty millionaire. I hope we get rid of the minimum wage law because then I can hire more people at 1.50 an hour! Bonus!
- PhilLesh69, on 07/13/2008, -1/+2Yes, doctechnical. But sawdust is cheaper than McDonald's.
You see where I'm going with that?
Poverty diets kill.
Though that doesn't mean being smart about how you spend your money on food won't increase your life span. The point is that there is an active eugenics movement that wishes to rid the planet of lots and lots of people. Even Jacques Cousteau had eugenics beliefs. - Arkons24, on 07/13/2008, -3/+4nah. I'm right. Minimum wage laws do nothing but guarantee that low skilled workers are always also the most unemployed workers. Why? Because forcing employers to pay a minimum wage just forces them to hire people closer to the top of the low skilled labor market. More likely they would rather pay the lower rungs a lesser wage for close to the same efficiency but since a minimum wage law forces the higher wage anyway, they might as well hire the better skilled worker. It is in this way that we arrive at a higher than needed unemployment rate and 0 growth in the low skill labor markets.
You're an idiot. - Arkons24, on 07/13/2008, -0/+1Not really man. I could reply with some well thought out and well studied essay on this like I've done in the past. However, since you Thinkprogress Looniversity students will just bury me anyway, I would rather just not waste my time.
Go take economics 101 and when you're finished come on back and try to make a case for minimum wage. - doctechnical, on 07/13/2008, -0/+1Do you think there might be a supply and demand connection here? If you're getting $100+ per month to spend on food, free (to you), you may not be all that interested in cheap healthy foods like brown rice and lentils when peanut butter and jelly sound so much tastier.
Let me put it another way: How much does rice cost in China vs the US? - doctechnical, on 07/13/2008, -1/+2You'll die a hell of a lot faster on a diet of only sawdust than only McDonalds.
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